fred johnson

BSA made their announcement Oct 11th or earlier.  Our council should have started sharing immediately and continually ... even if it was as much as "we don't know yet".  I'd like to give them the "doubt", but our DE and other council staff knew it was coming.  It was just when would the announcement would occur.  We tell our scouts to be prepared, but they were not prepared.  

Now, it's almost three months later and they have their first talking points about cubs.  Nothing about Boy Scouts.  Just limited talking points.  I almost want to skip round table as it's sort of insulting and absolutely a waste.  OR more importantly it reminds me of all the time I've wasted the last three months talking about this with individuals and units without any significant input or support from my council.  They've been mum until now.  And now, they are only ready to talk about one part of the topic. 

Many of the cub units I know have already made their plans.  They are just waiting for the "OPEN FOR BUSINESS" sign to do paperwork.  Sitting through a council presentation is sort of insulting now.  

Ya know, the leaders are going to address the topics and be there in front.  If the council leaders are not up in front, then they are not leading.  They may have the reins, but it's out of control and they are not leading.

I also get the feeling like they want to control this more then they want to help.  

Not prepared.  Not leading.  Not being helpful or friendly.  

I wanted to avoid the current topic as it's controversial.  Perhaps I'm no better than the council and DE trying to shield information.  But my frustration is not with the topic.  It's with a repeated pattern that happens every time there is anything at all challenging or controversial.  The volunteers are left out in front of the parents and scouts looking like the bad guy while still waiting for manna from on-high to be blessed upon us.  It gets old.  

Current subject ... Membership changes.  Talking points to share with units in the district, but the units are pretty much beyond those topics and looking now at the further issues of troops and camping and etc.   Now when the information is shared, the units have already been months into discussing the topic.  Argh. 

I'm a gung-ho loyal supporter of BSA and I very much want to march in-step with BSA's direction.  With that said, I was frustrated this last week.  Our DE is a great guy and we're in a good council.  But with all the changes coming and with being a strident volunteer, I expect just a bit more openness and straight forward talk.  Instead, this week it was just too explicitly an emphasis on talking points and controlling the message.  

Us lowly volunteers are going to talk, discuss and debate what we are going to talk, discuss and debate.  The volunteers are already creating content, discussing challenges, making plans and preparing blindly without support from the council.  If the council is not ready, prepared or open for the topics, then the council is not going to be involved.   I really fear the council will come late to the game after the units have made their decisions.  

The key point is there are no units, districts or program without the volunteers.  We are not customers to be managed or voters to be woo'ed.  

BSA and their councils should worry less about controlling the message and invest more in supporting their volunteers and getting information out quick and timely.

Related ... If I had a failing unit or a unit that needed change, the last thing I'd do is ask the CO what to do.  My experience is the CO doesn't help raise the money, run the program or manage the equipment.  The best thing I can do for the CO is to minimize the headache.  As such, I'd find the best home for everything and probably make a significant donation to the CO too.  Beyond that though, I fear I'd be asking for trouble if our unit started asking everyone's thoughts on what to do with cash and equipment.  

5 minutes ago, David CO said:

Unit leaders cannot disband a unit. Only the CO can do that. Unit leaders can quit, but they can't disband the unit.

 

 

If a trusted unit member asks pastor to sign something, usually the pastor will sign it.  CO's are usually hands off and don't fully understand what's going on and usually don't care. 

It's one of the main issues with BSA's structure.  COs own the units but don't really know what's going on or how the program works.  It's like having a police force that doesn't know the law or having an accountant that doesn't know book keeping.  

If CC is also the COR, he can disband the unit.  

26 minutes ago, NJCubScouter said:

....  And one or more of the players here must not be telling the truth. ...

The "truth" is often so wrapped up in hard feelings and twisted story versions it's hard to figure out.  I often wonder if it's worth figuring out.  Try to patch things together and find a path to move forward. 

It sounds like adults got so wrapped up in issues and differences and personal investment that they could not separate their feelings from working together.  As such, the whole program crashed.  Very sad to hear.  Not the first time I've heard things like this happen though.  

This is not a "versus" situation.  None of the solutions will be enough on their own.  

TWH looks really nice in many ways.  I'd be tempted to use it if we had not started with SOAR years earlier.  Still love the quality of SOAR.  What intrigues me about TWH is the money tracking.  Looks pretty good there.  I don't care for the communication features.  IMHO, SOAR did better with that.  But TWH has many great looking features.  

Challenge is BSA bought and invested in ScoutBook.  It does advancement well, but that's about it.  It is severely lacking for communication, calendar, finances, roster and more.  But it is plugged into BSA backend data systems.  And that's a huge feature in itself.  

From what I see, we'll be stuck for years and years with multiple systems.  ScoutBook for advancement and other systems for everything else.  It's not a choice.  

13 hours ago, Eagle1993 said:

 They don’t require parents or leaders of local units to attend.

I often wonder if summer camp would be better without as many adults.  I remember attending a week of summer camp when I was in 7th grade.  No parents.  No unit leaders.  It was just camp staff and campers.  I often think it was a better experience than troops camping at summer camps as too often the unit adults get in the way of the program.  More importantly, the unit adults get in the way of the scouts growing up on their own and learning their own way.

We have a few scouts that are 6'5" / 6'6". 

Is there a place to get extra tall scout shirts?  Is there a similar enough shirt that is "extra" tall?   Some need to be long and 2X or 3XX.  Some need to be just large, but extra long.  Any "polite" suggestions are welcome. 

For my sons.  I try to give back as others gave to create and sustain the program that benefited my sons.  

I often wonder how long I will participate after my sons age out.  I just don't know.  I often think that scouting is best when it's a youth program.  And, I'm not qualifying as a youth anymore . Perhaps I'll volunteer as a camp master.  Perhaps I'll continue my current roles.  But, I just don't know.  

I do love sleeping under the stars, listening to a rain storm at 2am, socializing and playing cards.  But it's a lot of work to pack-in, pack-out and deal with all the issues.  Also, the hardest reason to continue is it's extra work.  There is no reason I have to participate.  So I could choose not to participate and I'd have more time, more space in my garage and a lot more flexibility in my life.

I just wish I learned ten years earlier how to build a nice really comfortable bed in my tent.  Now that I can, it's really nice.  

I was given a large collection of old Boy's Life magazines.  They are tabloid sized and thick.  Very impressive magazines.  The current Boy's Life is a shallow copy of the past.  Still though, the current Boy's Life magazine serves a purpose with the youth.

As for the Scouting magazine for leaders?  I don't know anyone who reads it.  IMHO, I read 100 times more articles online than I do in paper these days.  I suspect that's true with most leaders except the most senior leaders.  

1 hour ago, Col. Flagg said:

Hi Fred. I guess I missed those points, so sorry.

I get the idea of having the gear in places people can see as maybe a catalyst for getting kids to join. But to be honest (and not trying to be offensive), that's a pretty expensive way to accomplish that task. Merchandise that just sits takes up valuable space and costs the owner of the merchandise (or "merch" as the kids call it these days) to keep it around. Once has to think that money could be better spent to hit that target market. With all the "free" media you get on social media these days, the cost of sending, storing and displaying that merchandise could likely fund several online campaigns. In my area the place that had Scout gear was a mom & pop hardware store. The only folks in there were guys over 60. Millennials were never in there. I spoke to the owner many times about his customer base (on an un-related matter to Scouting) and he noted his clientele was mostly 40-80.

Addressing profit level of BSA's supply is harder because it supposes that it is run like a successful retail outlet. I'm not sure their supply is designed to make a profit...at least, not like other outfitters are set up. We can likely agree that their gear is expensive and that cheaper alternatives can be found. Heck, I use Magellan grey switchbacks ($24) instead of the Venturing ones ($50+) and I have never had any issues. I would suspect you are right about the stores breaking even, but again, I don't think they are designed to...hence my post above. If they addressed those issues I think you might see more success in the stores' bottom line.

Yeah.  It's just a thought.  I remember our local five and dime store had a four foot section for scout stuff.  As a little boy, I remember looking at those things all the time.  And the small section of knives and wood kits.  

By the way, thanks for the suggestion on the Magellan pants.  I'm going to try some of the Magellan olive colored nylon switchbacks.  I stopped buying BSA pants when I bought four of the centennial uniforms and the uniform pants all failed in the first year.  The nylon switchbacks lasted forever.  I'll try the Magellan and see how good they are.  

https://www.academy.com/shop/pdp/magellan-outdoors™-mens-back-country-zipoff-nylon-pant?storeId=10151&catalogId=10051#repChildCatSku=102410529

41 minutes ago, Col. Flagg said:

I am lucky as I have two scout shops within 15 miles of my house, so access is not a problem.  ... I get the distributor-ship concept, but with Amazon Prime as an example, ...

I'm not sure we connected on the idea, etc.  It's not about access or 3rd party on-line distributors.  It's about visibility in stores people visit anyway.  It's about putting BSA stuff in stores that parents visit so they see BSA uniforms and stuff BEFORE deciding to have their kids in scouts.  Right now, parents have to decide for their kids to be in scouts before they see scouting merchandise. 

It's also partially about asking what is the profit level of our council stores.  I see them very busy in September with new cubs.  But if you remove the patches and advancements from the equation (which could be done online or differently), I suspect the stores are barely breaking even.  I'd really like to know the numbers.

I was reading about Canfield's closing and comments about them losing income due to their BSA distributorship ending.

http://www.omaha.com/money/canfield-s-sporting-goods-to-close-after-years-in-business/article_24f5e53c-daa0-11e7-868b-d3258181146a.html

I remember when I was a kid that our local five and dime had a scout corner / section for stuff.  I think that scout shelf marketed BSA to the moms that shopped there every week and helped show to those mom's that scouting was part of a normal childhood.  When it was removed, it separated BSA from where moms shopped weekly.  Now you only see scout shirts if you are in a scout shop or at a scout event.  Now, you have to drive out of your way to a specific store to get scout stuff (or go online).  The key is now you have to be decided to be in scouts before you see the materials.  Before, you saw the materials before you decided to introduce scouts to your son.  Heck, imagine three and four year olds walking with their moms seeing those scout uniforms.  I think it would also help create interest in them too.  I really wonder if we should return to the old model.

Should BSA use established stores as distributors of BSA goods?  Maybe Cub Scout uniforms and crafts at craft stores such as JoAnne Fabrics, Michael's and Hobby Lobby.  Boy scout stuff at Cabelas, Dick's Sporting Goods and enough others to get a good presence.   BSA would save on the physical stores and staff.  BSA would gain huge visibility.  BSA would still have their on-line presence.  I just question the cost effectiveness of the stores.  

BSA has made several huge mistakes because of the weight and value they put behind the "BSA" brand.  I think it was a huge mistake to make the BSA materials less visible in the community.  If anything, you want the opposite.  Get it out there far and wide.  

2 hours ago, qwazse said:

... a scout who said he's only there because his dad makes him. ...

Often, scouts say "my dad made me" when they are bored or stressed.  Kids don't know always how to express themselves and often don't communicate the real issues. 

Parents often tell their kids they have to do something.  Sitting at home online playing games is easy and automatic.  But it's also not acceptable to many parents.  Sometimes that comes out as "My dad made me".  

I know one scout who is emotionally and socially stunted.  He's getting better, but he'll always be a bit off.  When stressed, he'll say his dad makes him be there.  But we can also clearly see the benefit and growth he's experiencing.  We can also see that many parts of the program he enjoys.  So, I take that comment in the context of his growth and the fun he does have.   

20 hours ago, MattR said:

This is good but BOR's don't happen often enough. I did something similar with entire patrols, just as the manuals mention. Thorns and roses. We got some very good responses from them. It did take an adult to facilitate because the scouts would naturally just grunt and move on. Rocking the boat is very hard for a teenager.

You are right.  I never said it was perfect.  It's just if you look for some documented element of BSA's program that exists for quality control purposes, it's the BOR ... and letting bad troops die.  I really don't see other quality control mechanisms.  JTE maybe, but it's mostly ineffective.  

Thorns and roses is a great tool when you can solicit real content.  I just don't see it taught by BSA as part of the program structure. 

Quality control ?  BSA quality control is to let scouts and families vote with their feet.  Units die if they go astray and it drives parents away.  If units go astray and scouts and their parents stay and the unit successfully recruits enough to keep alive, then it's a good quality unit.  

Nope ... Training  ... BSA training is introductory.  It's not meant to produce effective leaders implementing the same program in the same way.  

Nope ... Commissioners ... BSA commissioners are helpful, but not a day-to-day quality control.  

Nope ... BSA Oversight ... BSA exercises effectively no oversight of their units.  BSA staff and district volunteers will NOT reach into the workings of individual units.

Maybe ... COR ? ... Probably the closest chance to quality control, but there is really little mechanism designed into scouting for the COR to use other than generally watching how the program works.  

Yes ... Scout at the board of review ... The scout is supposed to give feed back to the adults at his rank BORs on how the program is working.  Is it meeting his needs?  Is it fun?  Is he learning?  What can / should change?  What are the problems ?  IMHO, the BOR is often poorly used as a feedback quality control loop.  BUT, that's one of the main purposes of the BOR. 

In my limited Scouter career this has been mentioned to me at least four times by single mothers of boys as a primary reason they put their son in scouts.

I've heard that reason mentioned multiple times too.  

Every troop that I personally know has dues.  Usually, it's more about knowing if someone is active then it is about financing the program.

I get scared when I see discussion of checklists and evaluation criteria.  IMHO, this is more a power issue and a way for adults to justify their position and also a way to insert themselves into the process.  

I'd highly recommend reading GTA and then BSA advancement news and other sources.

• BSA GTA section 4.2.3.4 ... https://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/33088.pdf
• BSA Advancement news ... https://www.scouting.org/Home/BoyScouts/AdvancementandAwards/Advancement.aspx

I think the best comment comes from the Feb 2012 BSA advancement news ...  https://www.scouting.org/filestore/advancement_news/512-075_Feb.pdf

"In any of these scenarios if the youth makes a reasonable effort to fulfill the duties described, the requirement should be considered fulfilled."

IMHO, the best way to evaluate PORs is for the scout and the SM to talk about it during the scout's SMC.  It's the natural time to talk about how the scout his helping the troop and the natural place to sign off on the POR.

4th Monday of month.  No troop meeting that night.  Only PLC.  Otherwise, same place and time as troop meeting.  Consistency.  

... Advancement is the scouts responsibility, character is mine. ... 

I'm quoting Barry's post as he has a very good answer.  He's exactly right concerning concerning the overall MB program purpose and approach.  With that said though, Barry correctly describes the structure around a merit badge course without addressing the meat.  

The meat is what do you do in the course?  

• Think of yourself as a presenter / entertainer trying to hold the interest of a crowd.  They don't have to be there.  They don't have to earn the badge.
  • Will they be glad they spent the time with you?  
  • Will they leave energized about the topic ?
  • Will they leave with more knowledge or new insights ?
  • If someone asks them what they learned or about their experience, how will they answer?  

• The worst thing a MB counselor can do is walk the MB requirements point by point.
  • Find an approach.
    • How you would want to introduce a new person to the subject
    • A way to make the MB subject interesting
  • THEN
    • Map the requirements to parts of your course and your time with the scout. 
    • Extend and add as needed
•  It's important to remember
  • A MBC must make sure the requirements were covered in the same way a person must breath.
    • Breathing does not mean you have an interesting life
    • Breathing does not mean every breath is as deep and rich
  • A MBC should find a way to inspire and draw interest to the subject

I fully agree the MB program structure should grow maturity and independence and teach scouts to complete what they start.  But similar, a MBC has a responsibility to be a useful resource to the scout.  If the scout approaches you about a MB and you are a subject expert, fine.  You don't need to develop a course.  The one-on-one (or 2-on-1 really) nature lends itself to directly working together.  But, if you offer a course, you owe it to the scout to do more than just walk the requirements one-by-one.  You owe the scout an inspiring, rewarding experience. 

Otherwise, it's better to NOT offer the course as it will damage his whole view of the MB program and earning future MBs.

Example ... Some of the most rewarding MBs my sons have earned.

• Archaeology ... Going to a state park where the park ranger showed the scouts in detail is archaeology dig site
• Photography ... Running around with cameras and later assembling collages of pictures
• Metal or welding ... Bending sheet metal and using a forge
• Chess ... Playing chess at camp at night during down pours
• Canoeing ... Weekend long canoe trip
• Archery ... Building and shooting arrows
• Oceanography ... Presenters were experts.  Navy officer and deep sea researcher.

A common threads

• Real authoritative expertise
• Great way to cover the topic

Welcome.  Glad to see someone from WI not wearing a packer's jersey in their picture. 

Here's one: http://www.scouting.org/filestore/council368/General/BSAGuideToSafeScouting.pdf from 2007.

It looks like it is not in the new National version.

It is in some council description of the swim test.

I suspect this is because someone might split hairs about what constitutes an aid.

I agree.  The "constitutes an aid" is unclear.  It's also not part of the "requirement".   It's part of the clarification.  

IMHO, the 2007 G2SS clarified the "aid" in the next sentence.  "Walking in from shallow water, easing in from the edge or down a ladder, pushing off from side or bottom, and gaining forward momentum by diving do not satisfy this requirement."   It also appears in the changing direction section where it is "without any push off or other aid".  

I just don't see a Facemask as a big accommodation.  It's similar to eye googles or a nose plug.   

ON THE GOOD SIDE !!!! ... I really wish BSA had more documents like what we see in G2SS and a few others where they parse the statements given to the scout for the adult leaders and staff.  Then, they give clarifying explanations for the adults / staff to use to interpret the statements.  IMHO, I think this should be done for ALL BSA requirements.