fgoodwin

Sorry -- I posted this before I realized it was already posted in the original thread -- perhaps the mods can close this thread?

http://nn.byu.edu/story.cfm/56016 By Rachel Nelson Daily Universe Staff Reporter 7 Jul 2005 Garrett Bardsley has been missing in the Uinta Mountains since August 2004. Brennan Hawkins was lost and found in the area mid-June this summer. Luke Sanburg fell into the Yellowstone River and has been missing since June 24. All three names are familiar to national audiences, but are even more familiar to members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The three boys, ages 11 to 13, all experienced something terrible on a scouting trip. And all were members of the church. Now, another scout has been added to the list. Chase Hathenbruck, 15, drowned last week in the Animas River in New Mexico while rafting with his varsity scout team that was chartered to the church. John Gailey of the Utah National Parks Council, which heads the Boy Scouts in Utah County, said that despite the few recent accidents, there are more than 500,000 scouts camping each year, and nearly all of them come home safely. Safety is most important to us, Gailey said. Weve been asked if we should even take youth out. One core part of the program is to challenge scouts outdoors. But those few incidents are still a major concern for those involved with the scouts. Of the eight scouting fatalities across the country during the last year, five have been church members. Despite these accidents, church leaders will continue to run the chartered scouting programs as they always have, said Scott Trotter, church spokesman. He said that though the situation may need to be evaluated, they are relying on the Boy Scouts for any extra training that is needed. Even when you follow the rules, mishaps occur, Trotter said. But were sticking with it. The church is not the largest organization chartered by the Boy Scouts of America, Gailey said. Other organizations around the country, including other churches, parent-teacher associations and community organizations sponsor Boy Scout charters. A condition of the charter is that the organizations obey the bylaws of the program and provide their own leaders and meeting places. Leadership is the biggest problem with the churchs involvement in the scouting program, said Brad Harris, associate professor of recreational management and youth leadership. Harris worked professionally with the Boy Scouts for 23 years before coming to BYU to teach scouting education classes. Most of the problems were not scout problems, they were church problems, in my opinion, Harris said. Often leaders fail to obey the rules set for scouting activities, Harris said. They take scouts four-wheeling and shooting paintball guns, though they are not activities promoted by the program or covered by its insurance. The main difference I see is, outside of the church, people join scouting because they want to be in it, said Clint Lawton, a senior in the scouting education program. Inside the church, boys join because they are deacons. Whether thats good or bad, I will leave to someone else. Lawton was at the camp in the Uintas when Bardsley went missing last year. The 12-year-old wasnt at an official scout camp when he was lost, Lawton said. The boys are a lot safer when they are at official camps where rules are in place, Lawton said. Tenure problems are also inherent with scouting leaders within the church, Harris said. The tenure of a church scout leader is, on average, seven to nine months. Outside of the church, leaders often volunteer for five to 12 years. Church leaders are there primarily because it is their calling, while scout leaders outside the church are true volunteers, Harris said. Harris said he has noticed a difference in how church leaders promote safety within the scouting program during the last two years. Lately the church has focused more on safety, Harris said. The general Young Mens presidency has created a presentation and has visited places around the world promoting safe scouting. Lawton said the rules and scout policies are all in place, but its how closely leaders and scouts follow those rules that matter. The number of scouts that get hurt is so miniscule, Lawton said. I dont think they need any more rules, just more training.

http://www.wavy.com/Global/story.asp?S=3567478 CHICAGO A federal judge in Chicago says the Pentagon can't fund the National Boy Scout Jamboree after this year. U-S District Court Judge Blanche Manning recently signed an injunction that bars the Defense Department from financially supporting future jamborees, which draw thousands of Boy Scouts from across the nation every four years. The injunction doesn't affect the event scheduled for July 25th at Army Fort A-P Hill in Virginia. Manning's injunction follows her earlier ruling that the Defense Department support violates the constitutional guarantee of government neutrality toward religion. The lawsuit was filed on behalf of religious leaders who oppose the use of government funds to support the Scouts. Boy Scout spokesman Bob Bork says he expects the ruling to be overturned on appeal.

After-School Special http://www.parents.com/articles/age/5895.jsp From sports practice to art programs, a new survey finds 79 percent of America's middle and high school students regularly participate in activities both after school and on weekends. By Beth Turner December 16, 2004 When school lets out, what do your kids do? According to a new survey, they're more likely to be running off to dance class or heading to football practice than flopping down on the couch or hanging out after the bell rings. Almost eight in ten (79 percent) of America's middle and high school students say they participate in some kind of out-of-school activity or program both on school days and on weekends, according to a new survey. What's more, 57 percent say they participate in some kind of out-of-school activity or program every day or almost every day, and another 37 percent say they do so a couple of days a week. These results are from a new survey, All Work and No Play? Listening to What Kids and Parents Really Want from Out-of-School Time, which is based primarily on two national random samples: one of 609 middle and high school students, and another with 1,003 parents of school-age children. The vast majority of students claim their schedules are filled up, but the type of activities that take up their time vary widely. Here's a look at what school kids say they are doing: * 66 percent participate in sports activities * 62 percent are in school clubs or extracurricular activities * 60 percent do volunteer work * 54 percent attend religious instruction or a church youth group * 52 percent take lessons in music, dance or art * 52 percent are in an after-school program at school or another locale * 37 percent of high-school students have a part-time job * 30 percent get regular tutoring or extra academic or test preparation * 19 percent belong to an organization like the Scouts Most American students surveyed indicated that activities "play a crucial and positive role in their lives," according to the study. Some other key findings: * 85 percent say they think kids who participate in organized activities are "better off" than those who have a lot of time to themselves after school * 89 percent say they sometimes need a parental push to get involved * 75 percent say their day-to-day schedule during the school year was "just about right"; 22 percent said it was "too hectic" * 28 percent say they are home alone after school at least three out of five days in a typical school week * Given the choice, 54 percent would choose an activity that emphasizes sports; 36 percent would choose art, music, or dance; and 9 percent would take the academic option * Low-income and minority parents are substantially more likely than higher-income and white parents to say they have trouble finding high-quality, convenient and affordable activities for their children Do your kids participate in activities? Why (or why not) do you think it's important to get them involved in extracurricular events? Share your thoughts on our message board: http://www.parents.com/community/boards/thread.jspa?forumID=69&threadID=181385 The All Work and No Play? survey is a joint project of charity organization The Wallace Foundation and nonprofit research organization Public Agenda. The two national random sample surveys the findings are based primarily on were conducted in June 2004. Additional resources from Parents.com: After-School Activities: Weighing the Options http://www.parents.com/articles/family_time/4155.jsp First Classes That Make the Grade http://www.parents.com/articles/ages_and_stages/3003.jsp Stressed-Out Kids: How Much Is Too Much? http://www.parents.com/articles/ages_and_stages/3026.jsp Finding Great After-School Child Care http://www.parents.com/articles/ages_and_stages/3183.jsp

I'm no Moderator, but I knew when this thread opened that it had the potential to slip into an OT shouting match. It has now done so. The Mods should consider moving this thread to the "Issues & Politics" sound-off folder. Please.

P_S, if jkhny had accused someone of a criminal act and pronounced him guilty before trial, wouldn't you caution him that one is innocent until proven guilty? Why should the burden be any less when he accuses an organization of wrongdoing and pronounces them guilty? I don't believe I was "castigating" him for "commenting" on a news article before all the facts were in. And with all due respect, "discussing" the possibilities is a long way from pronouncing BSA guilty of wrongdoing. So I stand by my comments that one should proceed with caution when pronouncing guilt on BSA before all the facts are known. But since this is free country, jkhny certainly has the right to say anything he wants -- but BSA also has the right to sue for libel if jkhny is proven wrong.

Sorry, I don't. You might ask your Scout Shop. By the way, the copy I ordered on May 26 finally arrived during the week I was out at summer camp (week of June 20), so it took about a month or so.

Thanx Bob -- I was mistaken regarding the Key Three. You said the District Chairman fills the committee positions -- I agree with that. I was pointing out that many slots go unfilled and that willing volunteers are in short supply.(This message has been edited by fgoodwin)

jkhny, you claim the booted one was booted by BSA because he was a whistleblower. You should be careful asserting your opinion as fact. My understanding is that the Council claims it booted him because of an alleged inappropriate relationship with a female Scouter (which relationship the booted one of course denies). Whether or not either allegation is true I don't know -- but the point is, until all the facts are out, one should not assert any particular unproven allegation as fact. (This message has been edited by a staff member.) (This message has been edited by a staff member.)

My experience (two Councils, three different districts) has been that most districts are way understaffed and would welcome almost anyone who volunteers for a position, "nominating committees" not withstanding. I think the district chairperson is appointed by the DE after being nominated, perhaps same for the Dist. Commissioner. But basically, all other positions are open to whoever wants to volunteer for them. If there is a district position you want to fill, I suggest you let your wishes be known -- odds are, the person doing it may be wanting to get out anyway. District committees are always looking for more volunteers -- same for commissioner corps.

I took SSD and SA online -- it never asked for my member ID. All it asked for was my name, unit number and Council. I saved my printout in PDF format in case I ever lose my card. I like the electronic confirmation.

By "purist" I mean those (not just juris) who feel that Scouting = Boy Scouts, and that Cub Scouting is an accretion onto the original "pure" program, as if Cub Scouting were an American invention not worthy of being considered part of Scouting. The intent of my post was to remind purists like juris and his ilk that Cubbing was not an American invention -- indeed, it was developed by BP himself. Cub Scouting is just as much a part of Scouting, and does just as much to further the ideals of Scouting, as does Boy Scouting, Venturing, etc.

Boy Scouts To Be Equipped With Transmitters (ABC 4 News)-- The cases of Brennan Hawkins and Garrett Bardsley are bringing the issue of boy scout safety to the forefront. Now, two ex-scouts are donating tools that may eventually help find lost troop members. Demonstrating the technology, scout leader John Reese recently went looking for a lost scout in Millcreek Canyon. After a few short minutes, he locates the boy, who happens to be hiding. The device used is a product of Marshall Radio Telemetry, a company owned by Robert Bagley. After hearing about the case of Brennan Hawkins, a Bountiful scout who was lost for four days in the Uinta Mountains, Bagley and his partner decided to make use of his technology. "It was [my partner] who picked up the phone and said, 'we ought to do something about this,'" Bagley said. "I mean how many times will we hear about this again?" Bagley and Lynn Blodgett are now donating 200 of the transmitters to local boy scout troops, so that leaders are able to attach them to young scouts and track their movements. The devices will make scouts much safer as they explore the Utah wilderness, because they can transmit for up to 300 miles. It works underground as well as under water. The devices are worth roughly $50,000, but Bagley and Blodgett say that's a bargain if it helps find a lost child. http://www.4utah.com/local_news/local_headlines/story.aspx?content_id=E744A508-C1E1-4AF4-A40E-3230D40B221B http://tinyurl.com/8289h ============ Small Transmitters Donated to Scouts Jul. 1, 2005 OGDEN, Utah (AP) -- In the wake of an 11-year-old Boy Scout's ordeal while lost in the Uintas, a businessman is donating 200 tiny radio transmitters to the Scouts' Great Salt Lake Council. The transmitters, the size of nickels, have been used for years by falconers and on hunting dogs. The donated transmitters will be attached to lanyards and given to Scouts who take backcountry trips. Lynn Blodgett, executive vice president of Affiliated Computer Services Inc., is donating the transmitters and four receivers. "When this little boy was lost, my wife and I were talking about it," said Blodgett, in reference to Brennan Hawkins. "We thought what a shame it was with all this technology we have." Blodgett sat down with Robert Bagley, president of Marshall Radio Telemetry of North Salt Lake, which makes the transmitters, and talked about using the devices for Scouts. The transmitters send out signals every second, and the batteries last four to 10 days. The hard aluminum casing also makes the transmitters waterproof. "They can be underwater, and we will still walk right to the boy even if he were stuck under a log in the river," Bagley said. The transmitters can be tracked from more than 115 miles away. Kay Godfrey of the Great Salt Lake Council said troops will turn their tour permit in and will be able to receive enough transmitters and receivers for their party, Godfrey said. "It's really easy to get disoriented," he said. "These will provide security and monitoring." Blodgett would normally make an anonymous donation, but the council wanted people to know about it. The transmitters and receivers cost about $200 each. "I just hope what it will do is that we can prevent at least one child from getting lost," Blodgett said. http://tv.ksl.com/index.php?nid=5&sid=216020

Another "purist" . . . Britain had Cub Scouts 20 years before America did. And they were started by BP: http://www.scoutbase.org.uk/library/history/cubs/ Cub Scouting does "further" the Scouting movement, because the principles of Cubbing were laid down by the Founder of the Scouting Movement himself!

And one appears to be wearing a yellow PFD, while the other looks to be wearing a red one.

Sitting "on the edge" of the raft rather than "in" the raft seems like an accident waiting to happen. But given that I've never rafted in white water, I'll defer to more experienced Scouters to comment on that detail. I do note that for whitewater activity, the G2SS requires special instruction: For unit activity on white water, all participants must complete special training by a BSA Aquatics Instructor or qualified whitewater specialist. http://www.scouting.org/cgi/gss/viewall.pl One wonders whether the Varsity Team (boys & leaders) in fact completed such training before the event?

The boy has been identified (Chase Hathenbruck) and it turns out he was a LDS Varsity Scout (Team 313), which is the subject of another thread: http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=101845 Here is more info about the unfortunate accident: http://www.kobtv.com/index.cfm?viewer=storyviewer&id=20151

Teen drowns on scout expedition FARMINGTON, N.M. -- A Scout expedition on the Animas River, west of Farmington, has ended with the death of one of the teenaged Scouts. A 15-year-old apparently drowned after falling out of the raft. Another scout who fell into the swift-moving water was pulled to safety. The victim was found five miles down river. There were a total of eight Scouts and two adult Scout Masters on the rafting trip. http://www.krqe.com/archives/expanded.asp?RECORD_KEY%5bNews%5d=ID&ID%5BNews%5D=10793 http://tinyurl.com/ak7js ========= Boy Scout dies in rafting accident in northwestern New Mexico FARMINGTON, N.M. A 15-year-old Boy Scout died today after falling off a raft into the Animas River in northwestern New Mexico. That's according to Jan Gimar, an executive with the Boy Scouts in Farmington. Gimar says the boy was sitting on a corner of the rubber raft when he fell in. What caused him to fall wasn't immediately known. Gimar says the boy was wearing a life vest but the current pulled it off. A call to Farmington police for further details was not immediately returned. The victim's identity was not immediately released. http://www.kvia.com/Global/story.asp?S=3544010

SP, like you, I'm a great believer in an ounce of prevention being worth a pound of cure. But I'm also a realist -- and the realist in me knows that while BSA talks a lot about prevention (buddy system, YPT, health & safety, etc.), it does next to nothing in terms of teaching a boy (or adult, for that matter) what to do if they actually get lost. So, while it is important to train boys not to get lost in the first place, that training won't do him a darn bit of good in the event he gets lost anyway. I think we need to deal with that reality, rather than thinking training will make it go away. And one way to deal with that (potential) reality is a PLB. A map & compass would certainly help, if the boy knows how to use it. But moving violates the basic tenet of "stay put" when one is lost, especially if you don't know where you are and don't know how to read a map or use a compass. As someone smarter than me once said, PLBs take the "search" out of "search & rescue". So I think they are worth looking into, once they get to be more affordable.

I don't want to start another range war on whether or not camo comports with the Insignia Guide. But it occurs to me that, given the annual spate of Scouts lost in the woods, and the subsequent search and rescue effort: how much more difficult is it to find kids that are wearing camo vs. some other bright color? I just returned from summer camp; most of my troop wore bright red shirts every day -- but invariably, there are Scouts and Scouters who wear camo pants, and sometimes green, brown or olive drab shirts. Since such apparel hides the wearer in the surrounding greenery, is that reason enough to ask that kids (and adults) *not* wear them to camping events?

Given the recent rash of lost Scouts, is it time to re-look at PLBs? I haven't found any under about $550, which still makes them prohibitive to equip every Cub Scout who would ever hike in the woods. But if they ever get down around $200 or less, I would seriously consider buying one for each of my kids (2) and another for my wife, to keep with them at all times.

MMH, can you post a link to your source data? I can't add the Canadian youth columns and come anywhere near the Canadian youth totals, for any year. Thanx

I'm glad you made it back from Grapevine in one piece!

"Never have so many, flogged so much, for so little" . . . or something like that . . .

JD: no offense taken -- if anyone should apologize, I should apologize to you. It was I who came on too strong, and I am sorry. Being in a Scout Forum is no guarantee that I won't forget the Scout Oath and Law now and then . . .