fgoodwin

(This message has been edited by fgoodwin)

I notice that when I search the forum for a specific term or phrase, it returns a hit list just fine, and the hit list returns specific articles in different threads, sometimes it returns separate articles in the same thread. The problem is, when you click one of the hits, it always takes you to the beginning of the thread! This is not terribly helpful, especially if the specific article I'm looking for is somewhere in the middle of a multi-page thread. Am I doing something wrong?

Vicki, you're right -- sorry about that. I will add one last comment: according to G2SS, parents can observe any BSA activity -- they don't have to register as a leader or be a role model. Thanx for the correction.

t487scouter writes:I did mention to my parents before they joined that there were no parents allowed at meetings or campoutsFrom the Guide to Safe Scouting:All aspects of the Scouting program are open to observation by parents and leaders.http://www.scouting.org/pubs/gss/gss01.htmlI don't see how you can square the first policy with the second?

To all you BALOO trainers: Do you show the "Cub Scout Outdoor Program" video (AV-01V011) as part of your BALOO course? What do you think about it? Do you provide a copy of the "Cub Scout Outdoor Program Guidelines for 2005" (bin 13-631B)? Its not listed in the syllabus, but is good information to provide in order to show the progression of outdoor activities & camping as teh boys get older. At my next BALOO, I'm thinking about providing a couple more resources: 13-032, Cub Scout Leave No Trace Award 13-228, Cub Scout Outdoor Activity Award 13-508B, Pack Overnighter Site Approval Form So far, my Council has not approved any non-BSA properties but its own campground for use in Pack camping. I know other Councils have aproved state & national parks. What does your Council do? Fred Goodwin Keystone District Training Chairman Alamo Area Council

Julie, I understand your plight; all I'm saying is that we have official documentation in the form of uniform inspection sheets, leader handbooks, the uniform & insignia guide, etc. all of which provides official guidance on the proper wear of the uniform. Then all of a sudden someone will see a picture of a improperly uniformed Scout or Scoueter in Boys Life and take that as some kind of official sanction of improper wear, as if one photo on BL somehow trumps all of the other official sources we have to the contrary. My point being that those who want an excuse to bend the rules will find that excuse, regardless of the fact that we have so much official policy readily available to those who will simply seek it out and read it. You now have an official answer to your specific question, but I doubt if it will stop female leaders from wearing their shirts out. The fact is, there are many overweight male leaders also (I count myself among them), and we don't go around hemming our shirts so we can wear them out. Thanx to your efforts, we now know that women cannot use that excuse either, but we all know they will continue to do so, despite the official guidance to the contrary. As I said in a different thread, I don't plan to go around correcting the way others wear their uniforms -- I will only do my best to wear my own uniform correctly and thereby try to set an example. How others choose to wear their uniform is up to them. Fred G., UC Alamo Area Council

Singing for your patrol flag supports which part of the Scout Law? I think if you made a regular Boy Scout patrol sing for their lost flag, it might be considered hazing, which is disallowed under the G2SS. I don't know if WB21C is trying to explicitly teach the patrol method, but since it uses the patrol method, I would think the same G2SS policies would apply, meaning no hazing, even in a training environment? Fred Goodwin SR-552 "I used to be an Owl . . ."

I guess one of my pet peeves is: why is it that everyone knows that official policy regarding uniforming can be found in the Leader Handbook, Uniform & Insignia Guide, and Inspection Sheet, but as soon as we find one photo of a mis-dressed Scout in BL, we decide to follow the example of photo rather than official policy? Just more proof that anyone who wants an excuse to bend the rules will find that excuse. That's why I'm not a uniform cop, even though I am a UC.

anarchist, I didn't make myself clear about the camping "surprise". We also bridged on March 28; at that time, we were told to attend our first Troop Meeting on April 11, as they were not prepared to hold a "new parents meeting" on Apr 4. But we were never told of the impending camp out, even in the flurry of emails reminding us the Apr 11 meeting; the messages described the time, date & place of the parents meeting, the swim-test on the prior Saturday (Apr 9), how much to pay for Troop dues, etc., but not a word about the camp out. The first word we got was the night of the parents meeting, and I have to tell you, some of us were more than a bit perturbed to find that our presence was expected at 5:30PM on Friday Apr 15 at the debarkation point. We were made very aware that "stragglers" were frowned upon as they caused the entire patrol to be late. Apparently, the troop waits until an entire patrol is present before any of the boys in the patrol are allowed to be driven to the campsite. Now, like many people, I work and it takes me at least an hour to commute home from downtown. So while I may be able to leave early, it would've been nice to get a bit more warning. But I'm not letting that minor thing get in the way of our enjoyment of Boy Scouting -- no way! Now that we know the rules, we will live by them. Thanx

What a sad and unfortunate incident. I agree the TG and SPL appeared to have blown this all out of proportion (based on the facts as you state them). Based on my own experience in SR-552, we could never really tell when the staff wanted us to get rambunctious, or when they wanted us to get serious, so we too had minor incidents when we were told to tone it down, or to pick it up. You never really knew because it seems like the staff's job was to keep us guessing all the time. I will pray for your friend and hope that the SE wises up and changes his mind. What a pity to lose such a dedicated Scouter.

Those are good questions -- I would never wear the the neckerchief without the official woggle, nor vice-versa. However, I have seen many leadeers wear the beads alone w/o the necker & woggle.

My son and I went to our first troop meeting last nite. We bridged last month, and I must say, I was anxious. Alex had been getting bored with Cub Scouts, and I was afraid he would not want to stay in Scouting. Two years ago, we returned to TX after three years in MD. He really liked the Cub Scout Pack he left behind. He never really "took" to the new Pack, and being in Webelos with a new den leader didn't help. But Alex really enjoyed his first troop meeting -- they are planning a camping trip this weekend, in fact (caught all us new parents a bit by surprise). I know its gonna be hard for his mom and me to "let go" but I can honestly say I'm looking forward to seeing him "spread his wings". I am a little concerned that the older boys may try to pull some pranks or initiation rites while they're out of view. I hope his troop guide is reliable and above all that. I was never a Boy Scout myself (although I did earn the "Lion" badge as a Cub when it was still around), so this is all new to me too. Any other new Boy Scout parents want to share their story? Fred G. (soon to be) ASM, Troop 515(This message has been edited by fgoodwin)

I got my beads at last week's Round Table -- and as proud as I was to receive my neckerchief, woggle & certificate in front of friends & family, I was surprised to find there was no WB Course card. Every other Boy Scout training course ends with trainees receiving a course card -- isn't there one for WBers, too?

uz2bnowl, I agree that Cub Scout Packs should be encouraged to do at least two Pack Campouts a year. Webelos dens can go camping more often, and should be encouraged to camp with nearby Scout Troops. For those families in Packs or Webelos dens that don't go camping (or that don't camp enough to whet that family's appetite), many Councils sponsor family-camping overnighters, in which the Council provides the program, meals, etc. These are especially nice for families that have never been camping. Having others provide the program and meals allows them to focus on basics like setting up a tent. My Council offers these once a month. Interested families should check their local Council.

uz2bnowl writes: "In my humble opinion BOTH of the courses should be a requirement for the WEBELOS den leader knot." WLOT is required for the WDL knot. BALOO is not; since it is not intended to reach a WDL how to take a Webelos den camping, I'm not sure I see why it should be required. Fred Goodwin Asst WDL, Pack 66 Alamo Area Council

Kurt: I'm a district training chair, and I am surprised that your training indicated that certain portions of the uniform were "optional". I've taught NLE and most all of the Cub Leader specific sessions, and I can assure you the standard syllabus developed by national says no such thing -- it appears your Council or district may have modified the PPT slide locally. This is unfortunate. One of the reasons National went to video & PPT-based training was to standardize the information delivered to trainees. Local modifications like that are frowned upon, for the reasons you just gave. When adults in your class transfer to other Councils, they may be surprised to learn that what they were taught as "optional" in your class is not the case everywhere. Fred Goodwin Alamo Area Council

My son just bridged over to Boy Scouting last month. In his 4-1/2 year Cub Scouting career, he was always properly uniformed, from head to toe. We bought the blue Cub Scout shorts & socks when Tigers were required to wear only the orange t-shirt and orange & white cap. We bought the shorts kinda big hoping they would last three years (they did). We did not buy the long Cub Scout blue pants, as we knew it would take more hemming & rehemming to keep those properly fit. Once he became a Wolf Cub, we bought the blue shirt and the (old) gold & blue cap and replaced his Tiger belt with a blue Cub belt. By the time he became a Bear Cub, Bears had their own light blue & blue cap, which we bought (we didn't buy his Wolf or Bear neckerchiefs, because the Pack provided those at spring "graduation"). And finally, when he became a Webelos, we bought a tan shirt, green sox & shorts, and belt (although he continued to wear his blue belt so he could display his beltloops). Again, he got his colors and neckerchief at "graduation" the spring before. So we've bought many pieces of the uniform over 4-1/2 years, but we did it because we believe in the uniforming "method" and frankly, we could afford it. But I know cost is an issue for others, so I never made an issue of uniforming "from the waist up". However, as a DL, CC, ACM, and WDL, I beleived my family had to set the example so my wife, my son and I were always properly (meaning fully) uniformed. As a registered adult leader, I feel we owe it to the boys to set an example of always being fully and properly uniformed. And since our sizes don't change (or at least, not as rapidly as a growing boy!), that really shouldn't be an excuse for not wearing the pants. What others do is up to them, as I don't consider myself a "uniform cop"; but when asked, I will give my reason for being in full uniform and for having all pins & patches properly placed. And I remind them that when cost is an issue, they can always try the uniform exchange at Round Table, try Goodwill, or even Ebay.

Kristi: BALOO was first rolled out in 2001, or maybe 2002, but in any event, it hasn't been around for eight years. It sounds like your assistant may have taken some other course and she assumes it will substitute for BALOO. Without knowing exactly what she took, its hard to say, but WLOT and SMF / IOLS do not substitute for BALOO. I agree with you that there is no "expiration date" on BALOO as far as the standard syllabus from National is concerned. But local Councils can add such requirements if they want to.

The Sam Houston Area Council website has a great webpage explaining how units can open a checking account and how to obtain a tax ID number: http://www.samhoustonbsa.org/Home/DistrictSites/UnitResources/CheckingAccountInstruc/ http://tinyurl.com/575ty

To get a tax ID, go to this website: https://sa.www4.irs.gov/sa_vign/newFormSS4.do The process takes less than ten minutes -- it is free. Be sure you print a copy of the form before you submit, because after you click "Next" its gone! Also print a copy of your tax ID number after the system assigns it.

According to this report: http://www.guidestar.org/Documents/2003/221/576/2003-221576300-1-9.pdf Chief Scout Executive Roy Williams made +$455K in 2003.

To find out how much your SE makes, go to guidestar.org (requires free registration) and do a search on "Boy Scouts" and narrow the search by selecting your state. Look for a From 990 icon next to the search results -- that's what you're looking for. I found my SE reported +$150K in 2003. I don't think that's excessive. By the way, I heard about this site from Jay Thal on the Scouts-L list; he and I don't always agree on matters related to BSA, but he did point me to a great resource. (This message has been edited by fgoodwin)(This message has been edited by fgoodwin)

When I started a Pack in 2003, we needed a tax ID in order to open a bank account. Getting the tax ID took ten minutes. As others have said, obtaining a tax ID does not convey tax-exempt status.

2CD: I guess I question how a Cub can work towards the requirements of an award BEFORE he even knows what those requirements are! You are applying his achievements retroactively, and I'm not aware that such treatment is allowed for any other award, but maybe that's just me. Ultimately, if your Council accepted it, far be it that I should question it. YiS, Fred G.

anarchist, you titled this thread:NO Parents on campoutsand you also made the following statement in your initial post:the parents of these boys did not like being told 'by troop leaders' that they would not be able to 'continue to enjoy the scouting experience with their sons'I interpreted those two statements to mean parents were not welcome on Troop campouts. If I misread your meaning, I apologize.