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"SO, the question was asked, Who is Council, I think it was asked, anyway I am asking it. Awhile back I was the Council Venturing Chairman. The Scout Executive was very supportive of Venturing. I asked the Council Training Chairman if his commmittee would help with training Venturing Adults. He said no, that we would have to be a bigger group for him to help us. I replied that if we were a bigger group we wouldnt need his help. He said to check back with him when we were larger. So, the Professional was supportive, the Volunteer not so much. Could I say I had or lacked Council Support for training Venturing Leaders. Then, while talking to some Council Camping Committee members about a Venturing week of camp I was told we were to small and expensive to dedicate a whole week of camp to. So, again, I did not have Council support." Uh, this is why Council Venturing Committees are formed. When the regular opertating committees of the council (training, camping, marketing, etc) aren't supporting Venturing, then you form a Council Venturing Committee of volunteers to provide this (with the hopes these functions move to those committees). Its not a one man operations. Were was your committee? Did you get a training person on your committee to spearhead training? A camping person to spearhead venturing camping? that's how it works.

"I think the kids already have an avenue for this, called "Alpha Phi Omega". As I recall it emerged from the "Knights of Dunamis", and became an independent (of BSA) organization and now anyone can join, just like any other fraternity/sorority. I'm guessing that the only difference from your idea is that they are not registered BSA members." Very incorrect. APO was always formed independently of the BSA, tho with BSA approval. Knights of Dunamis started as a society for Eagle Scouts and later became part of the BSA and renamed the National Eagle Scout Association. For more info on APO, why not visit our national website: www.apo.org APO was formed by a group of Scouters and former scouts at a college in PA in 1925. The only requirement to join was you had to be a former scout (any level, any WOSM-member association). The intent was to form a college organization of former scouts that would strengthn their ties of Brotherhood and help them become better leaders and to do service. We dropped the scouting requirement in 1967 and went co-ed in 1976. ANY college student may join us. APO was approved by the BSA formally around 1932 or so, and for awhile received a charter from the BSA. We've had a representative of the BSA on our National Board from that time on, and we have a rep on the National Relationships Committee. The BSA lists APO in its literature (BSHB, SMHB, OAHB, etc) since that time, as a group they encourage scouts to join when they go to college. But we have ALWAYS been independent organizations. APO has info booths at major scouting events such as the National Jamboree, NOAC, National Meetings, etc. We will have an APO Service Corps at the next National Jamboree (like we did in the 50s and 60s). We will have a special week of Philbreak next spring. As noted, many of our chapters do a lot of scouting service work, and will charter as Venturing Crews, sponsor troops or packs, run merit badge universities on campus and the like. Because we are co-ed, we have many former boy scouts, venturers (male and female), girl scouts, and camp fire girls in our org. The Herbert G Horton APO Service to Youth Award is an approved BSA Community Organization Award, so if you are a BSA volunteer and receive it, you can wear the Community Organization Award knot on your uniform. There is a requirement in the TRUST Award written with APO in mind.

"From the information I was given many moons ago the ScoutParents website was set up by BSA itself. Am I wrong? " No, you're not wrong. The BSA rolled it out about a year ago. "The site was to give new Scout parents (or prospective new Scout parents) information about what the Scouting program is about. It is also set up to (hopefully) get new parents involved in Scouting. Remember National wants a million more adults by 2010 (whether they do anything or not). Let's see. One million adults times $10.00 equals big bucks plus they can say they have one million more members." Thing is, the BSA is in need of more volunteers. I know from numbers they've given, that they have about half the unit commissioners they need. In many councils, volunteers are hold 2 or 3 or 4 different volunteer positions that really should go to additional people. "I remember the "Inner City Scout Handbook" of the 70s. Didn't we lose over half the Scouts and Scouters with that great idea?" Am sorry, how does that apply? The "inner city scout handbook" was bad, because it was part of an overall de-empahsis of camping within the scout program. It was a failure, BSA recognized it, and GBB came back to create a new handbook. How is this anywhere similiar? The BSA needs more volunteers. Getting them from parents is a good idea. They also need to reach out to former scouts who want to get involved as volunteers. A good friend of mine who is an Eagle Scout & Vigil Honor has offered his help several times to his local council, but been ignore. That is just stupid. But it happens.

"OK I have just a few comments about the things at the camp you are refering to." Actually, I'm not referring to one camp. What I say here applies to several camps here in Florida. "* rebuilding the stage area (isn't this the area around the campfire)" Yesss, but you need a stage area for people to get up and sing, present, do skits, etc. Its usually a raised area with grass. "* rebuilding the seats/seating area (Ok I did this one when I went through, no other comments) * rebuilding/building a soundbooth and a/v system, including speakers, lighting, etc" A/V system??? Sound Booth??? Speakers??? Why??? we just need to speak up and be heard. I can understand the lights, maybe if we used just a minimal amount for the campfire. I guess I am of the old scouting (Not as old as others) where you carried a flashlight or walked in the dark on the trails. I dunno. I guess there are some things that I think do not belong at scout camp. " Excuse me, but I am not speaking of a small camp fire ring that can handle about 100 people or so. You're comments would apply to that. I am speaking of a scout camp amphitheather that can sit around 1000+ people. So you can just 'speak up' with that many people, you need an audio system. And you may want to show movies (need a screen, or something you can set up a screen, and place for the projector, etc. And as you get a lot of people who can't walk too well (grandparents, handicapped scouters, donors to the council, etc), so you need to make it safe and provide lighting, etc. (FWIW, many of our camps have both) If you think this sort of thing 'doesn't belong in scout camp', so be it, but we've had these as a kind of standard part of many many scout camps for a couple of decades or so.

At several camps in our state, the rebuilding of the campfire ampletheater (sp?) has been a project of the OA lodges. This usually included stuff like: * rebuilding the stage area * rebuilding the seats/seating area * rebuilding/building a soundbooth and a/v system, including speakers, lighting, etc Other camp property projects: * rebuilding, repainting, repairing camp cabins (if you have them) * rebuilding, repainting, repairing latrines/bathhouse/showers * regrading trails/roads (fill in pot holes, level out, etc)

"but I can't find any Venturing equivalent to the Totin' Chip or even Paul Bunyan requirements. " AFAIK, Venturers can earn both. So I don't think there needs to be 'venturing equivalents' for those...

NOAC 2009 will be at Indiana University again. The dates are August 1-6. I would not expect to see any info on the OA website for it for another month or so, atleast. They are still busy with ArrowCorps5. Once its fully over, then they will focus on NOAC. Personally think they will start promoting it in the Fall. Yes, there will be a need for staff at NOAC. There will be an on-line registration system to put your name in. Last NOAC they weren't really picking most staff until after the first of the year. Be adviced that you will need approval from your lodge advisor. I also hear that Indiana has less space then the last couple of schools, so there will be restrictions on the number of participants (and thus staff) who can come. Am hearing that lodges will be held to the youth/adult ration (1 adult per so many youth).

Some further comments on changing of how Ordeal are done. When I joined the OA as a scout years ago, my lodge (and I think most lodges in my state) held Ordeal the weekend when summer camp was over. Ordeal consisted of us going around and picking up cement blocks and tent platforms and putting them away, and picking up and storing our tents, poles, etc in the barn. Hot work in Florida in (usually, mid-July). About 5-10 years later, things changed. Not just in my lodge but most lodges. First we changed ordeal to be the weekend when we setup camp, as there was more work in setting up then taking down. This meant that tapouts would happen during spring-time camporees, and not summer camp. We changed that end of summer camp ordeal into a lodge service day. Separating elections from summer camp may also have been done because more and more of our troops were NOT coming to our council camp for summer camp. This is a trend that I see happening in many councils in my area. Then it was decided that the Ordeal candidates were doing just scut work. Nothing meaningful. So first we changed it so the lodge members were setting up for summer camp, and the candidates were doing service projects around camp. Stuff they could come back to in following years and point to and say 'i did that'. And then finally, it was decided that having ordeal in the summer (whether June or July) was just too hot, and it was moved into the Spring time. Again with the candidates doing meaningful service work instead of just scut work. The lodge would still have service weekends/day to setup and take down camp. And so that's pretty much how it stands in most of the lodges in Florida, to my knowledge. But its something that been going on for a decade or two.

"I know that with the new uniform there will be a new uniform insignia guide coming out." Why should the new uniform necessitate a new insignia guide? Pretty much everything will stay where it currently is. The only change in position I am aware of is for the trained strip. They put out a 'new' insignia guide about every year. I collect them, and not much changes from year to year. (biggest change in recent years was adding the color back page with most of the knots). "From the Director of NAYLE: Actually, the only patch that can be worn above the right pocket is a Jamboree patch. The NAYLE patch is considered a temporary patch and can only be worn on the right pocket. There's a nice training opportunity." That, of course, brings in to question who told your son it could be worn there, plus the staff wearing it there... (of course, in one council I work with, a lot of people are wearing the good turn for america patch above the right pocket...)

"Why would the parents want to file with the state. What's the purpose?" They want to create an incorporated group that will serve as the CO of their unit. Thus, they need to do so with their state. Doing so requires Articles of Incorporate and Bylaws to define this group and how it operates.

"Are you looking to set up a non-profit corporation or just get a pack or troop started? If the latter, there's really no need." They would need to have an incorporated group, and so need articles of association and bylaws for that group (what will be the charter org). They are asking for (and you're correct about not needing) bylaws for a troop or pack. Basic bylaws are covered in any good book on parliamentary procedure. Check out Robert's Rules of Order, Newly Revised and consult a local parliamentarian for help.

"What is the purpose of having MOS or the OA? What role does it play in scouting? You may or may not have to excuse that I don't see a reason for either is a well run troop program. If the reason for these programs is to make up for a poor troop program, then I think taking scouts away fronm their unit is a poor fix." Its never been the purpose of any scout honor/camper society to fix poor troop programs. That's the reason for the commissioner service. There are as many reasons for such groups as there are groups themselves. Each one were established for different reasons. Many such groups were strickly 'camp societies'. The many purpose (not sole) was to create continuity from camp season to camp season, to give the kinds a purpose and reason to come back. Thus, you could only join said society at summer camp, and the society had no purpose outside of camp. Obviously, the founders wanted something beyond that, and so felt they should be targetting the best campers as candidates, and to give them a higher purpose and to help them even futher to become better scouts. Thus, many of this groups whose purpose were originally limited to camp, because more year-round programs, but still tied to camp. Thus, many of the leadership of the group became the leaders of the camp, and vice-versa. Also, many of these groups took on a strong service orientation, both at camp (camp based service projects, etc) and outside (OA has been doing this with AC5, encouraging lodge to do community service, etc.) and so on. If you see elitist attitudes, its too often due to many not fully understanding (or learning) the real purpose of the org. This is true both amoung the kids as well as some adults. How many of these people even bothered to crack open the OA handbook and read it? How many bother to go to even a workshop within their lodge or at a section event and get a chance to really learn what the OA is all about? (I can say honestly that in my first 5+ years as an OA member I never did that myself, but never was an elitist). I think, touch on skeptic's comments, that due to perseved issues of elistism, many of the restrictions and such on joining and progression has been dropped, and not always for the better.

Members of Venture patrols wear the regular boy scout uniform. AFAIK, the VenturING uniform is not being changed at this time. There is talk of charcoal gray switchbacks coming out, but as we were never required to get the pants/shorts from NS anyway, so what? All my pants/shorts, including a pair of zipoffs I mainly got from BassPro Shop.

"Unless you live in a very unusual council more than likely your district boundaries are determined by school districts and county lines and not demographic make-up." That's been my experience in all the councils I've been involved in. districts have been clearily been divided by counties or sub divisions of counties. However, one council I'm in was setting up a 'Scoutreach district' that was bizarre, because it was trying to include the various depressed/poor communities (as the aim of scoutreach was to reach that community).

"We have a Cabela's here. EagleSon's Crew goes there to buy grey shorts and grey trousers. Darn things wear like iron." Have a Bass ProShop here. They have similiar stuff. I usually get my shorts on sale, and have yet to wear any out. I have one pair of the 'official' shorts and hate them. "That said, I think some of the two-tone green is a remnant from the "Leadership Corps" days of the 70s/80s. I know a Council camp staff which does it." I would agree. There are some on our Council Camping Committee who wear green because of that. And I occasionally run into scouters who were in the older Leadership Corps and still wear forest green even tho they aren't in venturing. "What I like personally is what one of our camps does: They make their own staff epaulets from various patriotic grosgrain ribbons!" Well, that's one thing I don't care for. There is no authorization for crews to make their own shoulder loops. Crew patches, t-shirts, etc is great. But ixnay on shoulder loops.

"Why would they wear Boy Scout shorts with a Venturing shirt when there are Venturing shorts available?" The usual "reason" is the people in question are probably already Boy Scouts and thus already have a pair (or several pair) of Boy Scout Shorts, so why force them to spend extra to get charcoal gray shorts? (btw, you don't have to get the pants/shorts from national supply). What about those few who weren't Boy Scouts and don't have Boy Scout shorts? Oh, well, there are usually too few of them to worry about...

"Councils do inflate these numbers. Go to www.scouting.org/venturing/venturinglocator.aspx and plug in your zip code to see the "crews" registered in your area. Ever heard of 80% of these crews? Probably not." Well, the issue of 'paper crews' is different then camp staff crews. Many councils, right or wrong, will register several groups as 'venturing crews'. Usually the excuse is insurance, use of camp facilities or the like. These may be JROTC crews, various high school clubs, and the like. They are real groups and real kids. BUT, are they real venturing crews? Well, are the kids aware they are now a Venturing crew? (probably not) Do they participate in the Venturing program? (probably not, so forget about them coming to your venturing events or doing the venturing program, etc) It's one thing to have a church youth group (or APO Chapter) or similiar group also be a Venturing crew, with the full knowledge that they are, in fact, a Venturing crew and plan on participating, at some level, with the BSA or Venturing program. It's another to sign up a group as a venturing crew just for insurance purposes or to allow the use of the camp, but the members have no idea they are now members of the BSA and make no use of the program.

Well, still a lot of questions. Who IS supporting the traditional programs (cub, boy scouting, venturing, sea scouting?). Who is taking care of training (new training, updates, WB, etc)? That's not clear from this chart.

"If there is I haven't found it. I have 'em through the 11th in 1959." There was a 12th National Training Conference in 1963. No idea if they produced a Principle Addresses book. I do have the other reports they put out. No idea if there that was the last of these events, but suspect so.

"This is interesting, SDE. Is the idea that it is almost some kind of "warm body award" where if one is a Mason in good standing and a Scouter in good standing, they get the award or is some judgement involved." This aware is not a 'warm body award'. The award is part of a class of awards called the "Community Organization Awards". There are about 8 or so of them. While there are differences between each of the awards, most share 3 basic requirements: 1. be an active scouter 2. be an active member of the awarding organization (Masons, Elks, USPS, American Legion, APO, etc) 3. and most importantly, be doing work that strenghts the connection between scouting and that particular org. I'm involved with the COA of my org, and the biggest reason we reject applications is they are missing that 3 point. There seems to be some who submit the award thinking its some kind of 'warm body award' (this guys a member of our a group and great scouter, so they get the award, right? sorry, but we don't see them doing any of the critical 'connection' work, so no).

Red Cross Basic First Aid is 4 hours. CPR is another 4 hours. As noted, its very hard to get WFA (or equiv) in many areas. Its occasionally given in my area, but its a weekend-long. The BSA-Red Cross agreement should make it easier/cheaper to go thru the courses.

"I like the Quality Unit style ... where the standard is set, and anyone who reaches it can be recognized." Building off that, one thing I also like is when you have such standards, but have multiple levels. So if you met the first level, you get that recognition, but if you push further you could achieve the second level and so on. In the BSA, the basis for the Quality Unit award was the old Sea Scout Standard Ship award in the 1930s, later expanded to Senior Scout units unto the 1940s and 50s, which had 3 levels of standards to aim for. I seem the similiar thing with Toastmasters "Distinguished Club" goals with 3 levels, and my fraternity's 3 levels for the Chapter of Excellence Award.

Sounds like you covered it for me. I'll be at PTC (for the first time finally!) the week of Aug 3-9 (Venturing week). I'll bring my red jac-shirt (don't get much chance to wear it around here). And a camera of course. A small folder chain maybe a good idea.

"Alexander was employed as the BSA's managing secretary from early June until December 31, 1910. However, he was convinced to stay another 6 months, supposedly to help West." Oh? That's in conflict with all the info I've read that says he left around October and Robinson stepped in until West took over in January. And certainly never heard of him staying around to help West either.

This page at Wikipedia gives a good overview history of the BSA: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Boy_Scouts_of_America Amoung other things, it mentions several of the orgs that were merged into the BSA. Many are fairly unknown apart from their name. Many of their founders were given positions in the BSA, but soon dropped out. What is unsaid is what was going on at the BSA office from its incorporation in Feb 1910 and when John Alexander became managing secretary in June of 1910. That about four months.