Eamonn

In our WB Cluster, it was the norm when one of the sessions of the 11 Leadership Skills was covered that the participants were invited to write: I will use the skill of whatever ( Planning for example) to better serve my Troop by..... They then would add a few lines of how they would put this skill to good use. (This came in handy when it was time to write a ticket, but made the participants aware that these skills were to be used in a Troop setting) I don't see the themes in the 21st Century course as just being about adult management. They work just as well with and for our youth members. Maybe if the sessions were called: -Listening to Learn from youth members? Communicating with Patrols Giving and Receiving Feedback (Isn't this just a new name for the good old Reflection?) Valuing People and Leveraging Diversity Coaching and Mentoring of youth Leaders. 3.Models for Success Patrol Development Model Situational Leadership for everyone? 4.Tools of the Trade Project Planning for Patrols Problem Solving for Patrols Managing Conflict within the Patrol Assessing Patrol Performance Managing Change Celebrating Patrol Success 5.Leading to Make a Difference Leaving a Legacy Learning the Greatest Leadership Secret and passing it on to the youth leaders? Eamonn.

OGE, I sat on our Council Executive Board for about ten years. Never once did was a Unit asking for permission to wear uniforms brought up at a meeting. I think most of the guys in suits might have a hard time knowing a reason why not to allow it. It was a super nice day here last Saturday. The fuel pump on one of my tractors went bad. I had to run into town. Troop 160 was selling hoagies. Most of the Scouts were in uniforms. I looked at these kids and was pleased to see that they were out and about and in their way letting people know that Scouts and Scouting are alive and well in our area. I of course bought a hoagie. I drove to the other end of town and a group was outside the local supermarket having a car wash. I had no idea who this group was, a group of kids in jeans and t-shirts. - It turned out they were they were the HS Varsity Cheer leaders. I had to run into Wal-Mart. Some nice looking young girls had coffee cans they they stuck under my nose. They were the girls softball team from the community next door. As I say I did buy a hoagie which I didn't need, I did get not the best car wash ever, but I bu-passed the coffee can waving softball players. Of the 3 groups I felt that the little lads in Scout uniform seemed more worthy of my $6.00 than all the others. I'm not sure if selling hoagies should be seen as a Scouting activity or not? Heck, it seems that I'm not sure what is and what isn't a Scout uniform? I'm sure that the Lads selling the hoagies don't know that there is any sort of a rule, I'm not sure if the adults do or not? I think it's kinda sad that so many units feel that they don't trust the council enough and feel that completing the money earning application is maybe in someway opening the door for the council to come in and get in their way. Lets be honest when it comes to doing things as they should be done some Councils pick and choose what rules will be enforced and when they will be enforced. Councils routinely have fund raising events which involve games of chance, alcohol present where young scouts are present. These are the guys that are supposed to know better? We are supposed to seek their permission for a little Lad to sell a hoagie in his nice new uniform that he is so very proud of? If the BSA wants to say "No uniforms should be worn at unit fund raising events" Then that would be the rule that we could all understand. What we have now? Maybe is worth ignoring? Eamonn.

I'll admit that it's been some time since I presented Scoutmaster Training's. Maybe some of the more active Trainers can help me out? (My copies of the syllabuses are in the garage which is a mess thanks to a non-working fuel pump on a tractor!) Anyway... I have presented both Training's. If my memory serves me right? In the specific training the Methods of Scouting are covered, which does include the Patrol Method. I do remember not being happy with the way the course material is set up and that the methods do seem to come near the end of the course. I think (I don't know!) That there is some kind of expectation that most people attending have some idea of how Patrols are set up. This course in very informational and doesn't go into any styles of leadership. The videos are good and do cover the relationship between the SPL and the SM.. When I have presented this course, the participants are placed in groups when they arrive. While not in any way real Patrols. (At least to start with) The groups are Patrol sized. By the end of the day they do come up with a Patrol name and Patrol yell. The games and activities (Some are not in the syllabus, but you can only sit for so long!) Are done in these groups/patrols. Before the participants leave,they are invited to sign up for the outdoor course which is as a rule presented soon after. Because the outdoor course is held at the Council primitive site which is normally used for Troop weekend Campouts, the Patrols are asked to work together on bringing tents. The other equipment is provided. When they arrive back for the Outdoor Skills course; they from the get go (Flag ceremony on Friday Night) are in Patrols. Each patrol is assigned a guide who works with them going over the skills. All the time they at the course they are in Patrols, they eat, sleep , cook and do th activities in Patrols. One member of the Training Team is appointed SPL and this person is very much th go to guy for that weekend. Just as in real Troops we have had problems with the Patrol Guide wanting to do too much and wanting to become a member of the Patrol -Rather than being a resource for the Patrol. Some of the sessions are presented to the entire Troop, mainly because of man power and expertize. But for the most part the entire weekend, the hikes and everything else is done as a Patrol. While there isn't a sit down presentation (Thank God!) On the Patrol Method. I think that the participants get the message. At Wood Badge, soon after the course starts the participants participate in a PLC meeting which is held with the SPL and the PL's meeting as they will do everyday, but this first meeting is held with everyone who isn't a PL observing. The course is set up so as to be or look like three Troop meetings and a Troop weekend Campouts. The second part of the course (The last 3 days) has the participants camping, cooking,and working as Patrols. They get to use the skills they have hopefully picked up on the course to do a good and maybe even a better job. While I don't think it adds very much to the course! Everyday as a Patrol they evaluate their performance as a Patrol. The Troop Guide who on day one was hanging around like an old mother hen has (Or should have) backed off and is now leaving the Patrol to do more and more on their own. Having been a Course Director /Scoutmaster for the course. I found that my job was mostly done before he course. Developing the staff. Once the course got under way the guy who had more to do and worked most closely with the Participants and the Patrols was the SPL. I'm not sure how other Councils set up the trainings? I'd love to hear from people who have been involved or taken th trainings as to how things are done in their area. I feel sure that no one expects people to learn all that there is to learn about Scouts, Scouting in two or three training courses. Heck I've been around for a while and am still learning and am still doing things wrong. I do think however that sometimes we don't need a sit down session with a title to get the message. A lot of the time we fall into doing what is right or fall out from doing what isn't right. The methods are all good stuff. But I see many of them as goals. The guy who was my ACM went on to start a Troop with a group of Lads that were all Webelos Scouts who crossed over. The Lads were young, the group was small and the leaders were all new to Boy Scouts. A lot of the things we spend so much time talking about: All this youth led stuff and to some extent the Patrol method was somethings that they just were not ready for, the kids weren't ready and the adults weren't ready. Sure they used the titles, they had PL's and held PLC meeting but it took time for everyone to grow into and understand how things are done (How the game is played?) This Troop is now one of the better Troops in the area. They don't do everything by the book, they still mess up, but they continue to look at what they are doing and look for ways to do a better job. They have been to some of the Trainings, but they (We all do) lean from each other, they see what other Troops are doing. Who knows maybe they one day will think that having Patrols camp 300 feet apart is the way to go? What they don't need is anyone beating them up, telling them that this is the way and the only way. You can bet that as soon as they seem to have got it right and are where they think they should be? The adults will move on and an entire new group of adults will come along seeing things in a slightly different light and these guys will try to do their best to bring the methods to where they think they should be. This next group of guys will more than lightly be younger than the group they replace. Some might not have been born until the 1980's. They have been raised in a different age, do things a different way, see things differently. For us to tell them or keep n harping on about the good old days or how some old English Lord went about things a 100 years ago, is not going to help these new guys. The youth they serve are a lot different than the kids that BP took to camp 100 years ago. Sure give them the opportunities to play in the great outdoors, allow them to be a group of boys that camp and get into the same type of mischief that boys have got into for the past 100 years. There is an ad on TV that states that fun is never outdated.I think that it's true. I also believe that for us to get to where we want to be with these Scouts (Which even if we use different words. - I might use ethical choices and maybe others have a different take on it?). We have to be flexible and open minded. Eamonn.

Kudu, Before someone attends Wood Badge they should have completed the Specific Training's needed for the position that they hold. The Patrol Method is covered in the Scoutmaster and Assistant Scoutmaster Specific Training. The Patrol Method is used at the Introduction To Outdoor skills and at Wood Badge Courses. At Wood Badge there is a daily PLC meeting led by the SPL. I'm not sure what more you might want? Ea.

Asking for a copy of the charter is not going too open any can of anything! Just call the Scout Office ask to talk to the Registrar and have them mail you a copy. You need to know who your Chartering Organization is, before you can do anything. The worms only come out when you start using the information. Eamonn.

Nice. Very nice. (Now get back to work on the next one!) Eamonn.

At the risk of being wrong! (And the fact that I'm not able to find it on the BSA web site!) I always thought that the Activity Uniform which is often called a "Class B" (I know some people get upset about this. But I've never really worked out why?) Consisted of: BSA Socks, pants, belt and some kind of a shirt which had some kind of Scouting logo on it. Normally a t-shirt. Am I wrong? I did find something in Scouting Magazine September 2002 which mentions it, but wasn't able to find an kind of official type guideline. Eamonn.

Fifty cents per meal?? Just can't be done. With more and more camps using Food Service Companies to take care of the feeding, this cost per meal is at about $1.65 - $2.00. Our Council Camp is in a State Park so we also pay rent on the site. Eamonn.

I took Wood Badge at Gilwell Park back in the early 1970's. The Training grounds as far as I know never moved they are in the same place as they were when the fist WB courses were held. The training grounds are not that big and don't cover that much of an area. I know that we didn't camp with each patrol 300 away from each of the other patrols. With some of the larger course hosted at Gilwell Park to try and do this would mean that a couple of Patrols would have camped in the Tea Shop in Chingford. I'm not sure how a thread about two courses can end up talking about a book that never was part of either course? Eamonn.

A lot would depend on the size of the Pack? Back when I was CM the Pack was up to about 70 Cub Scouts. Moving that lot along with parents and siblings was a real task. You also need to be careful that the program you are offering is one for all the Scouts, not just the ones who share your interests. Eamonn

Maybe if we all looked at what we do in Scouting as having stock or shares in our local Councils a lot of things might be better. Each and every COR has an invite to attend each and every District Committee Meeting. Sadly very few bother to attend and seem happy to allow unit leaders the task of correcting any mistakes that a District might make or airing opinions that the District Chairman can take to the Council Executive Board. COR also have a vote on who sits on the Executive Board, again very few attend the meeting and those that do fail to find out about the people who are have been nominated for election. As volunteers we seem happy to wait till the Board does something that upsets us and then try to undo what has been done. Pushing aside the fact that when the people who do this stuff were nominated we did nothing to prevent them from being elected in the first place. If the COR is not doing his or her job? We need to talk to the CO and try to get someone who will represent us when needed. Eamonn.

Our District Chairman and myself were only talking about this earlier this week. The rules seem a little confusing to me. But then again I'm easily confused. It's not so much a matter of when. It's more about what! The BSA has some commercial (Not a lot! Mainly Trails End Popcorn.) Products that it endorses. So for example two Troops want to do a hoagie sale. Troop 1 calls Joe's Subs and orders the hoagies for he sale. Troop 1 can't wear their uniforms. Troop 2 makes the hoagies. They can wear their uniforms. The information that you received from the Council was 100% wrong! Wrong because you were not selling a commercial product (Unless of course you had a big sign saying that Frank's Hot-Dogs were sponsoring the sale) And wrong because a uniform is a uniform, selling any commercial product in any BSA uniform would be wrong. It makes no difference if it's the field uniform or the activity uniform, if it in any way might be seen that the product being sold could be taken for a product that was being endorsed by Scouts or the BSA, no part of the uniform should be worn. Having said that. The truth is that the rule gets so misunderstood that no one really understands it and in most cases is just ignored. Eamonn.

John-in-KC I really don't see that asking members to pay a set fee is in any way going to do anything that will make us lose our non-profit standing. Just as the Red Cross charges for their First Aid classes. While I really don't know how things are set up, but a lot of the areas that the BSA is involved in does to me seem to be for profit. I'm thinking of Scout Stuff and Boy's Life Magazine. These seem to me to for profit. They of course might be set up as so to not be part of the BSA. Things at times can get very complicated. Because I was worried about my liability when I was selling alcohol. I set up several corporations to help shield my assets. Right now I don't own my home/house! It is owned by a corporation in which I own nearly all the shares. You can guess who owns the rest! Another corporation that I own has a few liquor licenses, in case I'm ever dumb enough to want to go back into the restaurant business. Eamonn.

The ticket is your ticket. It needs to be all about your vision and your mission. You know the units that you serve. You know the "Pride and the soft spots". You know yourself. You know your strong points and your weaknesses. It would be all too easy for me or another forum member to pass on a list of five generic ticket items. But these might be all about our vision, not yours. I strongly urge you to take a long hard look at yourself and the units that you serve. Think about what you can do to help improve these units. Think about ways that maybe you can improve yourself. It might help to re-read the Commissioner Handbook? It might help to have a chat with the people you serve and the District Commissioner. Don't sweat the ticket. Please take my word for it once you have your vision and mission in place coming up with the goals is easy. I know that if I were writing a ticket as a U/C, I'd be looking beyond the unit leaders and looking for ways to improve my relationships with the CO's -But that's just me. If you get stuck? Give your T/G a call and talk it over with him. Welcome to the forum. Eamonn.

Sometimes it's not what you do, it's the way that you do it. I'm not that sure that a Pack needs that many Pack activities. I'm not sure if bringing the entire Pack together can really offer the Scouts age appropriate activities. Parents and Den Leaders have a lot on their plates. Many kids of Cub Scout age are involved in other activities all of which seem to want to drag the parents along. The poor Den Leader who signed on just to lead a Den, finds that along with the weekly Den Meeting and planning for the Den Meeting, that there are leaders meetings, Round-table meetings, Day Camps, Resident Camps, Scouting for food days, Christmas activities, Good Turns, Pinewood Derbies, Pow-Wows, training's, Pack picnics, Fishing derbies. That isn't counting the other activities that other kids might be involved in. Lord help him or her if they also have a girl who is involved in a lot of activities. Rather than see a Pack doing too much, I think an active Den is a much better way to go. Eamonn.

While I might be 100% of base? I couldn't help feel that the new leader in the original thread was not getting a fair shake from the DE. I feel bad for him. Not only did it seem from what was posted that he wasn't getting the support that he needed, but was also been led up the garden path by the DE. Maybe the DE just didn't know any better? Or maybe he had his own agenda? We have a new DE. I like him. He really seems to want to do a good job. He has just started year two of being on the job. He came on board about a month before the new SE came on board. So both of them are kinda still finding their feet. To be honest both the new DE and the SE seem a little "Up-tight" to my way of thinking! I don't think I have ever seen them without a suit and tie, unless they are in uniform. While this might be the BSA dress code? In this area meeting with someone for a drink wearing a opened neck shirt and a pair of casual pants, seems to put people more at ease. The Council also has some very strong minded people on the Board who have been around for a long time and are fairly well known in Scouting circles?? These guys tend to see what is happening (At least on paper!) in "Their Council" as some kind of a reflection of what they are doing for Scouts and Scouting. These guys want to look good and demand results! They have in the past put pressure on one SE to move and fired another!! Add to this they know all the tricks and short cuts. Which at times can undermine the authority of the SE or force him into pushing his staff into doing things that might not be 100% right. Sometimes it's not always the professionals who are at fault. Sad thing about some of these guys is that they are not as young as they used to be! They really don't know how much things have changed and are locked into doing things the way they used to be done. Eamonn.

The CD of the first 21st Century Woodbadge course I staffed was worried that it wasn't going to work. His idea of making sure it was going to work was to invite a lot of other guys who had been Scoutmaster for the course that the 21st Century course replaced. These guys were old school, hard core old course types. They had been passing on the 11 Leadership Skills for a very long time. 1. Communicating 2. Knowing and Using Resources 3. Understanding the Characteristics and Needs of the Group and Its Members 4. Planning 5. Controlling Group Performance 6. Effective Teaching 7. Representing the Group 8. Evaluating 9. Sharing Leadership 10. Counseling 11. Setting the Example When faced with this new course and a new list with Five Central Themes, they were at first a little bamboozled! However once they got into the course and looked: 1.Living the Values Values, Mission, and Vision Aims and Methods 2.Bringing the Vision to Life Listening to Learn Communicating Giving and Receiving Feedback Valuing People and Leveraging Diversity Coaching and Mentoring 3.Models for Success Team Development Model Situational Leadership 4.Tools of the Trade Project Planning Problem Solving Managing Conflict Assessing Team Performance Managing Change Celebrating Team Success 5.Leading to Make a Difference Leaving a Legacy Learning the Greatest Leadership Secret Many if not most of these old-timers were a little surprised and taken back at how much alike the two course were and how much they had in common. There were of course a lot of comments about the big differences in how the material was delivered and different people had different feeling about this. But.. When you look at the list (Not the delivery!!) What changes do you see? What do you think is better? What is worse or missing? Eamonn.

For the most part I like to think of us volunteers working hand in hand with the DE. A partnership that when it works well, make the magic of Scouting come to life. Having said that. There have been times when I was a unit volunteer, when I have been willing to put the wants and needs of the unit before everything else and push ahead with only the well being of the unit in sight. This was especially true when the Ship was just starting and I was trying to get things set up in such a way as to ensure that the health and future of the Ship would be safe-guarded. I enlisted a lot of help from people who in the past I'd recruited and enlisted to help with the District. Without wishing to come off sounding egotistical, these people did what they did because I'd asked them to do it and when I moved from serving at the District level to the unit level they kinda came along with me. There have been times as a volunteer serving at the District level that I refused to participate or be part of something which I seen as being wrong. At times this put the DE between a rock and a hard place as on one hand she had her boss telling her what needed to be done and on the other hand she had the District Chairman saying "Over my dead body". This was especially true when it came to signing up an entire HS class as Venturers with the DE being listed as the Adviser. Over the years I have worked along side DE's that I have liked a lot and some that I didn't. To be honest I do believe that volunteers know far more about the program than most if not all the DE's I have ever met. I believe that we the volunteers really have the good of the kids in the communities where we live a lot more at heart than the DE who is going to be around for a few years and if things work out will look to be promoted and move on elsewhere. Eamonn.

Hi, Sounds like you have fallen in at the deep end! BSA training's are great, but they don't and can't cover each and every situation. It sounds to me like you need someone local who has been around for a while to talk with. A great place to meet other Scouter's is at the monthly Round-Table Meeting. I think that there you will meet other Scouter's who are willing to offer advise and for the most part have the good of the Scouts at heart. DE's at times have a slightly different agenda than volunteers. They at times need to be reminded of how little real power they have. Of course you being new might mean that you don't know what they can and can't do. I'd seek out an old gray-beard who is willing to share with you the wisdom of the ages. The business with the AA is a little sad. But they made their bed and there is nothing that can be done about it. So let it go! Kinda strange that a local council is getting involved. You might want to check out what the terms and conditions of having and using the Scout Building are. It might be that using it is more trouble than it's worth? From what you have posted the VFW seems like your best bet. The best of both worlds would be if they were willing to take on being the Chartering Organization, but allow you to have your meetings at the Scout Building. Again checking into who pays for what (Heating, lighting, insurance) might be what makes it work or fail. Failing this talk with the church and see what they want to do or are willing to do? If you can find the name and number of your District Commissioner? He or She might be the go to person to sort things out for you. You might also want to ask the Council Service Center to send you a copy of your charter and see what names have been put on it. All too often in a rush to get a new unit started DE's can play hard and fast to have names on a charter without even asking the people who own the names if they want to be on it. (Been there done that!!) Most DE's are great guys. But there are a few who would mess up a one car funeral. My advise is to find an experienced volunteer who is willing to listen and offer his advise. Eamonn.

John-in-KC I have been told that I'm tighter than two coats of paint. But even someone as cheap as I might be isn't going to lose that much sleep over the tax deduction on a fee of about $100.00. Ea.

"You are on the manicured planet where $100 is no big deal, not in the dirt with the average laborer who struggles for weeks to months to squeeze that much money out of their paycheck to paycheck life." FireKat, I've never had a manicure in my life!! (HWMBO says it was my knees!!) Please believe me I see inmates who earn as little as 25 cents an hour working in jail. I talk to them on a daily basis about how things are at home, their wives and kids. I do know and am very aware that some people do not have it as good as maybe I do or others might. I'm 100% for us being more diverse and breaking away from the white middle class image we might have. My view of what Scoutreach should be is that we do bring in everyone who wants to be in. (Scoutreach should not be a numbers game) It would be a little silly for us to collect money from the families that you describe and then hand it back to them. But... In order for a Council to reach and help these families the money has to be there in the first place. The Scout District I live in has its foot in two counties. Estimated median household income in 2007 was $31,344 in one and 46,057 in the other (Below the $48,576 for Pa.) I don't know how a family can survive on less than $50,000? Still many of these people are supporting the local Council. My point is that it would seem more fair if everyone who could afford it paid their fair share. Eamonn.

"What planet are you on???" I like to think that I'm down to earth. We might not like to hear it, but there really is no free lunch. Running anything costs money, the money has to come from somewhere. As things are now a lot of people who can afford to maybe donate or donate at a higher level are not. Some are not giving anything. Is this fair? There are Scoutreach programs for units and Scouts who really couldn't afford a fee. I really don't think that $2.00 a week is that far out of line. Here on planet down to Earth. It is understood that when Councils don't have enough cash services get cut, things get sold and Councils are forced to merge. All of which makes things harder for the volunteers and in some cases results in less members. Eamonn

I guess many of us have pet peeves about how or where money is spent. Without wanting to come off as sounding rude. This isn't about wasted or misspent money. It's about finding a fairer or maybe a better way of raising the money in the first place. I don't think I have heard too many people complain about having to pay their membership fee to National. In fact it seems to me that most people don't even question what it's for? Or how it's spent. I'm very much for us the volunteers supporting our Councils, in fact I believe that we are the Council and we are supporting ourselves. By bringing an openness to all of the finances, I would hope that a good deal of waste would be seen and done away with. As I said, I don't know what a fair amount would be? I'm thinking of something like $50 -$100 per family. Maybe less if every family was doing their part. Eamonn.

I find myself in a bit of a quandary when I start thinking of maybe replacing Family FOS donations with a fee that the Council would receive and use. One problem I have is trying to work out what or how much the fee might be? I don't know how things are in other Councils? But trying to get information from our Council about what the real cost of anything is can be a nightmare. When you try and see how much is being spent on salaries? The Camp Staff pay roll is in the amount shown, when you try and see the real cost of camp you can't find pay roll because that number is in the staff salary amount. Even the FOS numbers are hard to follow. While they do clearly show how much comes in, they fail to show what goes out. Patches used to entice donations seem to end up listed in the awards budget. Life shouldn't be this hard. The cost of running a Council should be easy to see and work out! At the District level each and every activity is budgeted to break even or make a small profit. (Some Councils add a fee to cover the cost of things? What these might be? I'm not sure??) Summer camp should make money. If it isn't making money? Something is wrong. The fees charged to camp at Council facilities should cover the costs of operating them facilities. This would to me seem to say that the Council needs to raise enough money to cover: The costs of operating the Council Service Center. (Overhead costs like heat, light,insurance.) Salaries of both the professional staff and the support staff, this would include the benefits that they receive. Along with maybe a few other items. On the other side of the page income shouldn't be that hard to work out or look at. After a few years it would seem that a pattern would emerge that should give a fairly clear picture of what can be expected from: Summer Camp. Popcorn. Sales in the Council Scout Shop (If there is one.) Big fund raising events. (High priced dinners, golf outings and the like.) The Community FOS Campaign. Income from grants and things like that. (A main job of an SE should be to always be working on bringing in more income like this.) Income from investments that the Council has. (Many Councils receive income from the interest that the endowment might make.) There will be years when the income that was hoped for might not meet expectations, but there will be years when there will be windfalls or things just seem to fall into place. Again the job of a SE should be to be on top of this stuff. I'm not happy with the way things are done at the moment. The amount of time and effort that is put into the Family FOS Campaigns seem overwhelming. Many SE's seem to live in a cuckoo land of stretch goals that if the truth be known they really never expect to reach. This might be done by the SE as a way to keep the Board happy and off his back? It might just be a way of covering his tail, so that when the stretch goal isn't met he can blame the DE's the Volunteers or just about anyone he can think of. We are spending way too much time and placing too many manpower hours into this Family Campaign. If we (The volunteers) were given the real hard numbers of what the real cost of running the Council was. (Not some mythical number that looks like it might work.) Along with the real expected income. We would be able to see the balance. Armed with this knowledge. I think each Council could charge a fee per family for what is needed. Of course if someone wanted to give more or make a donation they would be free to do so. This would make things fair to everyone. It would force Councils to take a long hard look at where the money is being spent and how it is being spent. It might mean that some cuts do have to be made, but I'd rather see the cuts be made as they are needed, rather than waiting until things get so bad that camps and the like have to be sold off. With DE's not spending so much time worrying or working on this they would be free to work in other areas or maybe the Council could save money by not having as many? I haven't given much thought as to how much a fair fee might be? Or as to where the money might come from? My guess is that most units would be able to add this fee to their unit budget and cover the cost with unit fund raising. Eamonn.

Have to admit to not reading all that has been posted. In part because I kinda think it's going to be much of the same old same old! Anyway! In the mail today I received the quarterly edition of the PEBTF Benefit news (Pennsylvania Employees Benefit Trust Fund) The headline read: PEBTF Introduces Domestic Partner Benefits. Under the "Common Requirements" it goes on to say: Two adults at last 18 years of age, and engaged in an exclusive committed relationship" It makes no mention of what sexes the adults have to be or not be. It does list a Fortune 500 companies who allow benefits to cover domestic partners. While of course this is (at least to my way of thinking) a far fling from Gay Marriage. I do think it is in response to current cultural trends. I don't understand sex between two people of the same sex! -Maybe because I'm not gay or maybe because I was born when I was born? Or maybe because of 1001 other reasons? I do however see that two people of the same sex can have deep and loving feeling for each other and I see no reason why they shouldn't set up house together and be offered the same benefits as traditional married partners. I now return you to the $5.00 ongoing argument. (Yes you did, No I didn't, Yes you did, No I .....) Eamonn.