Eamonn

I wonder how many complaints National would get if they ran a few million dollar ads at the next Super Bowl? I wonder what we might try and sell? Would we go for the ads that sell the high adventure stuff? That I know most of the units where I live don't deliver? Or would we play it safe and stick to the very boring "Words To Live By" Selling the values? Maybe what we need is to do away with the National Jamboree as we know it and have the site open every year, with all the activities going on and use it like a Scouting Disney World (Kinda like Sea Base)? Troops from all over could come and this could be something that we could use as a selling point? Eamonn.

I think that we need to be careful not to get our knickers in a twist. While in some places the law has not caught up with Sexting and in these places the penalties can be very sever, most of the young people who are involved in it see it as a prank. I don't have a daughter, but I would hope if I did that she wouldn't be taking naughty photos of herself and sending them to her boyfriend. Many of the boys who receive these photos have no control over what they are getting. A year or so back my in-box on my computer was being bombarded with mail that promised to make my you know what three inches longer, that along with the barrister in Africa who wanted to send me many millions of dollars that some long lost relative had left me from a diamond mine. I don't know why a girl would want to send this sort of thing? Maybe it's a cry for attention? Maybe her boyfriend is asking for the photos? I don't know. I don't see these as porn. The boys who forward these pictures on are in some ways involved in modern day gossip. Gossip is never a good thing and can be be very hurtful and at times harmful. The web and the Internet have made porn available to just about anyone who owns a computer. At this time the cell phone I use is a dinosaur but I know that there are phones that have the capability of doing everything that my computer can do. Trying to come up with ways of dealing with all of this in a Scouting setting is not going to be easy. Sure the easy way is to make rules. No Phones. No Computers. No Cameras? Still as an organization that talks about teaching the ability to make ethical choices, I'm not sure if this is the right road to take? It takes away the choice, it teaches nothing other than to just follow the rule or don't get caught. If we really want the kids we work with and for to be Trusted? We need to trust them. As I see it our goal should be that they do the right thing just because it's the right thing to do. Step one has to be for us the adults to explain why Sexting is wrong, how it harms and hurts people and why it has no place in Scouting. Many kids just see this as a harmless prank, we need to explain that it more than just a prank. I do have to admit that I'd find an open and meaningful conversation about pornography with a group of young Scouts very difficult. I have when the topic came up discussed my views with a car-full of older Sea Scouts. Having female Sea Scouts there made it easier for me! While all the Scouts agreed porn was wrong, a few of them questioned why it was so wrong? I ended up not having to say very much, the Scouts in the car in their own ways worked it out and did a far better job than I might have done. I do think if I was going to cover this with a Troop of Boy Scouts, I'd try and find some people from outside of the Troop (A judge and maybe someone from the clergy?) to lead the conversation and I'd warn the parents and invite them to attend. As for the consequences for a Scout having this type of stuff? I do think that his (Or her) parents do need to be informed each and every time. The material does need to be taken from the Scout. If that means deleting it or keeping the phone in a place away from the Scout? I'm not sure. I think that should be done case by case. As a leader I'd be happy to pass this on to the Committee and allow them to deal with it. If I were a member of the committee? This would be tough. I know as a young Lad I read Playboy and shared some what were then "Dirty" pictures with other Scouts. (A few years later the same sort of pictures appeared everyday on page 3 of the Sun Newspaper) It isn't the Scouts fault that this sort of stuff is out there and so easy to access. I think if I were a Committee member I'd want to talk with the parents and make them aware that this sort of thing has no place in Scouting and ask them to try and ensure that it never happens again. They might want to sit their son down and talk with him or have someone else talk with him. If they found that the Lad was viewing a lot of this kinda stuff on his computer they might want to get some kind of professional help for him? I'd also suggest that for a while it might be a good idea that he didn't take his cell phone or computer to Scouting activities or if he did that he have an adult take care of it for him. Eamonn

A few years back I was asked to help raise a large amount of money for the Council I serve. My first port of call was of course to the people I knew in Scouting who I thought might have a few extra dollars and might be willing to not give it all to the tax man. This was an easy sale. Most of the people I asked if they had the extra money were willing to donate, in some cases I know just to be rid of me. If they didn't have it? They just didn't have it! A good pal of mine is the CEO of a small chain of up market department stores. When I asked him he was willing to give personal donation but said that Scouts didn't fit in with the company profile, as a company they support The American Cancer Society. I asked several foundations, some very politely said no. A couple asked me to come and give a short presentation. It became very clear that a lot of the people who sit on these foundations have no idea what we do! Just about everyone had of course heard of Boy Scouts. I heard the "Little old Lady.." thing more than once, but I was surprised that these people had no real idea what we were about. Of course we (The people who post here) like to think that everyone knows all about Scouts and Scouting. But this just isn't the case. The people I was talking with were for the most part very well educated, well off people. I can't help wondering if they don't know about us? What chance has the family that lives in the less desirable area? I have to wonder what our image really is to outsiders? When I mentioned this to our then SE he said "What do you expect from an organization that meets in the basement and camps in the woods?" While he might well have had a point? I would hope that we can do better. Eamonn.

Some stuff has got my little gray cells working. Talking with our Camp Director, a very dear and close friend who also serves as a pro wearing far too many hats. He tells me that the number of Scouts attending camp this year is about th same as last year. About 1100. This of course is a good thing. He went on to say that if it wasn't for the out of council campers coming, the number of weeks would have to be cut. Right now we are down to six weeks. Back in 1977 when I first came over to the camp as an International Camp Counselor, it was eight weeks and it seems to me that we had more Scouts in camp for them weeks. Back then I think a week cost $25 or $35, this year it's about $250. I know I pushed for the camp to be self-supporting when I was on the Executive Board. (The Camp was running in the red at one time.) I'm not sure if the cost of living has gone up that much over the past 30 years? I have ordered a new Golden Retriever pup. I want to name him Dribbles. HWMBO says that you can't name a pure breed dog Dribbles! Back when I was an Alter Boy. Holy Cross Church in Fulham was serving mainly Irish Roman Catholics. When the Bishop appointed an English Parish Priest, some of the parishioners were worried. Father Cochran was a super nice guy. Over his confessional he had a name plate that read Fr. George Cochran, Royal Navy. OBE (Order Of The British Empire). He had a big black retriever, who followed him just about everywhere,even on to the alter when he was setting up for Mass, the dog was named Fish Head. With that in mind I don't think Dribbles is that bad. Have been reading and following the thread about changing times. I have not looked at this years Annual Report. But it has been posted that over the past ten years membership is down by as much as 16%. This is sad. I think each of us has our own opinion as too why this has happened? I think we might want to place the blame on someones doorstep. I, over the past few years have lost some of the faith in the people who we are supposed to be in partnership with, the professionals. Even at the local level I have witnessed promotion hungry guys who have been willing to not do what is right to get where they think they ought to be. But I still think that Scouts and Scouting is a great place for a lot of young people to have a good and safe time while learning a lot of good stuff. With this in mind, I'd really like to do my bit to help over the next ten years go back to where we were ten years back. Sad thing is that as of right now I'm not sure how to go about it! I know that as time passes I'm nearing my passed sale date. Still I'm sure that I'll come up with something. A few weeks back I bought a chain-saw. In the past I was happy to use my tree pruners and a small saw to cut away the small stuff that got in my way of mowing. When a tree looked like it needed help, I'd call the local tree surgeon. The purchase of the chain-saw was my way of hopefully saving a few bucks. I'm not good with power tools and so far have not worked out how to use the saw. I did notice last week a tree with a split in it, when I was cutting away the small stuff that was getting in my way. The following day it was a little windy and half the tree fell off missing one of the boats by just a couple of feet! I'm thinking of taking the chain-saw back! Can someone please tell me what good do Ground-hogs do? The dogs are forever chasing these little fellows. I wouldn't mind but Ollie is still on a 50 foot line because he chases anything that moves. When he takes off after a Ground-hog, he forgets that I'm on the other end of the line. I'm starting to really dislike Ground-hogs. Maybe if I knew that they were doing something good? I'd change my mind. Eamonn.

What NeilLup said twice! Ea.

And where I live the most important HWMBO! (Her Who Must Be Obeyed) Ea.

gwd-scouter I think if you check out the back of a Boy Scout uniform shirt, your going to find that there isn't any holes for the Angel wings. Kids are kids. Scouts are kids. When people talk about "Building A Troop"? All to often they talk about membership or advancement. While of course membership and advancement are kinda important! Building a Troop is a lot more. First it's very important to remember that it is not going to happen over night. It's going to take time, in fact the more time the Troop is around with caring knowledgeable adults who stick to their guns the better it will grow and become. How much time? There isn't any magic number, but I'd say it takes about five years to build the foundation that makes a Troop a Troop. In the past I have posted how I was asked to return to the Troop where I'd been a Scout in and started with two lads kicking a soccer ball around. (I'm not going to re-tell the whole story!!) In them early days I was worried about just getting kids to turn up. I was being a real soft touch!! When it became clear to the boys that they wanted to be more than just a group of kids who met in a Scout-Hall to kick a ball about, that's when the fun really started. Almost from day one I took the old "Never do anything for a boy that he can do for himself" To heart. I really tried hard not to preach! I went out of my way to encourage with words like "Of course you can!!" To be honest I never had a lot of time for Patrol Flags and yells. We had a inter-patrol competition, with the Patrol gaining the most points wearing a special necker for the following month. A chart on the wall showing how many points each Patrol had earned each week. Points were given for all sorts of things : Inter-patrol Games Attendance. Uniform. Earning a rank or badge. Along the way some things which might sound like no big deal became important. Having meetings start and end on time. (Every now and then we would meet at the hall and leave at the time the meeting was to start and go play a wide game, just to remind everyone that the meeting started at 1900) In the early days with more Lads joining the Patrols were a real mess. Once we got past eight Patrols things seemed to settle down a bit. (We had Patrols of six. Mainly because the Patrols slept in six men tents.) After a while we really tried to sell the idea that once you joined a Patrol that was your Patrol for life! PLC Meetings were held once a month normally on a Saturday afternoon. These were not just a sit down meeting, but a chance for me to go over the skills we would be using for the next month. I kept a written record of what we did each and every meeting with comments about what worked and what didn't. At the one end of the hall was a small kitchen. If someone was being a pain in the neck, he was invited to join one of the adults for a little chat. (of course the door was open) Again this was done in a very friendly relaxed way. I think or like to think that the Scouts knew that we the adults really liked them, care about them and wanted them to have a good time. We went out of our way to look for and sell new ways or different ways of doing things. The first couple of years the food the Scouts cooked wasn't the greatest. (In fact it wasn't good.) We were fortunate in having Scouts from all over the world. A lot of Indian and Pakistani families so having them cook the food that they ate at home just made sense. Making the youth leaders feel special and important was a big thing. Easter Camp was only for the PL's and the APL's (APL's because chances were that they one day would be the next PL) We tried where possible to camp where we would be camping that summer. After a few years unwritten traditions just seemed to stick. The Scouts knew that I enjoyed a good camp-fire. They really had no choice! Somehow it just became "Our thing". We would have our own campfires and invite other Troops to join us. The adults looked at what worked and tried to improve on it and looked at things that didn't work and looked for alternatives. For example the Troop had since I was a Scout had a monthly Church Parade at I think a Methodist Church. The Scouts didn't like it, I wasn't happy about it! So we contacted the local hospital (Charring Cross Hospital in Fulham) and had the Scouts once a month wheel the patients down to the services. The Scouts had the option of attending the service or the hospital gave a coupon that was good for the staff caf - Needless to say the caf seen more Scouts than the preacher did! When a PL brought up what seemed like a silly idea at a PLC rather than just cast it off as a silly idea we looked for ways of making it work. Most times it ended up being nothing like he original idea, but everyone was a little happier! One big thing for us was that all th adults were friends. We really liked and dare I use the word loved? Each other! We met for an unofficial meeting every Sunday after church for a pint and made plans and talked about what was going on. We enjoyed what we were doing, we had fun and laughed and smiled a lot. Please take my word for it, if you stick around for the next ten years or so, your going to see things in a very different light. Eamonn.

denleaderamy, Welcome to the forum. I'm with you 101% on this one. As I see it you have every right to set the limit of how many Lads you feel you can serve and serve well. If the Pack needs more adult leaders? That is not your concern. Your job is to deliver the program to the Cub Scouts in the Den you lead. The role of the Pack Committee is to form a selection Committee and set about finding the adults that are needed. Sure the easy thing to do is place these boys in existing Dens. But a Den is supposed to be the size of a Boy Scout Patrol, Cub Scouting is supposed to prepare theses young Lads to become Boy Scouts. I urge you to stand your ground and serve the Boys in the Den as best you can. Don't allow yourself to be bullied into doing something that you don't want to do. Eamonn.

Back in 2000 we drove from SW-PA to Philmont. OJ was still a Webelos Scout HWMBO - Is very shy, not a person who mixes well and doesn't like to camp. Me? I talk to anyone and everyone and have a great time no matter where I am. The car park is very close to the tents. The tents are set up in what must have once been an apple orchard. If like one Forum Member you see deer as rats with antlers. You will have a problem. The tents are a fair size. Don't try and sleep 3 in the tent they aren't that big. They do have limited electric, maybe enough for a small fan. We had a slight problem with a group of real loud children who lacked any sort of parental control. OJ didn't wear his uniform every day. Some of the kids who attend are not in Scouts. The food is OK. Not great, but you would need to be real picky to go hungry. Bring twice as much money as you think your going to spend in the Trading Post. HWMBO did attend some of the planned events off site, but was happy to read a book or do some of the crafts on site. OJ had a great time, he and a Lad from Mexico became pals and still "talk to each other " on line. I think via face-book?? OJ did go with a group overnight to to the Tooth of Time. I'm not sure but I don't think adults who are not signed up for the trek are allowed to just do their own thing. You might want to check. The showers first thing in the morning do get very crowded. I took my shower at night and just shaved and brushed my teeth in the AM. Everyone is very friendly. Even HWMBO made a few friends who we exchange Christmas cards with still. I had a great time. We did the trip in a small car (Mercedes C) If I was ever to drive out there again with 3 of us I'd like a bigger car. HWMBO said it was OK but she doesn't ever want to do it again. We went in August and there were days when it wasn't very warm and the nights were down right chilly. The day off is nice, but it's a good idea to plan what you want to do before you go. There is no point getting there early on the Sunday, nothing happens early. The Hotel in Cimarron that we stayed at was not very nice, the food wasn't very good and the service was just plain bad. We arrived a day early and it really was a wasted day. I took the Delivering Commissioner Service course. The guys who presented the course were from Erie PA. About 70 miles from where I live. We had a great time and drove home going to the Grand Canyon through the Painted Dessert and the Petrified Forest. Some of the people we met had come by train and were renting a RV for a week or two after the conference. But gas was only about $2.00 a gal back then Eamonn.

At work we have policy's for just about anything and everything you can imagine. When ordered by a high ranking commissioned officer to break policy or do something against policy. We (Me) are supposed to inform the person that this what he has ordered is against policy. We are then supposed to follow the order and as soon as possible put in writing a report o what happened. This will be reviewed by the Facility Superintendent or his superior. I when I read what kenk posted find myself between a rock and a hard place. On one hand if I'm the ASM I feel that in keeping with the Scout Law need to be loyal to the SM. To be honest I do find the scenarios a little confusing. I know that not doing anything is just wrong. I do feel that I would at the right place and the right time take the SM aside away from too many ears!! And voice my opinion. I think I might mention that I was going to make a record of what I said to him (I'm not sure about this? I know I would write it down, I'm not sure how I might tell him and not make it sound like a threat?) I would attend the activity. Once we were where the activity was to take place, I'd evaluate the situation. There is a difference between potential risk and foolhardy. If the risk was too big? Or it became clear to me, that what was planned was foolhardy. I would explain to the person in charge my feelings and why I thought the plan needed changed. My hope would be that he would see reason. Failing that I'm not exactly sure what I'd do. I guess I'd look at my options and decide which was the best. Eamonn.

I think many of us can post times when the decision that we have made as the person in charge have been right on the money. Some of us might be willing to post times when we have been just plain wrong. I don't think this thread is about that? I think it's about how we reach the final decision. I don't have a problem asking people what they think or what they think we should do? Feedback is a gift. Sometimes even if I am the Skipper /SM/, I might not be the person in charge of what we are doing. A few summers back we took the Ship Sea Kayaking, the trip was booked with a guide, who knew the waters better than I ever will and is far more experienced than I am. When I send the details of the trip to the Scouts and their parents, I made it clear that while we were on the water this person was in charge. Still this guide who was really great came up to me several times and asked what route I thought we should follow? Some routes were harder and some longer than others. I was of course willing to trust her and willing to place my Scouts (YES MY) in her hands. Eamonn.

Chopsticks are great, but try eating soup outside in the rain and you might run into a problem. Ea

A little while back I started a thread about "The Leader or the boss". In a case like the one you outlined. The SM is the boss. The buck will always stop with him or her. I sure as heck would hate to be the guy who allowed myself to be persuaded and then God forbid, something went wrong. I'm happy to go with my gut feeling and willing to face the consequences for doing so. If I'm not happy that everything is good, it makes no difference what anyone else says. Of course this might just me being a mule headed Irishman? Eamonn.

I've been trying to master the art of eating with chopsticks and so far haven't had much luck. We are so very fortunate in that young people are willing to share their youth with us. kenk There are more than one way to skin a cat! Staff members on the old WB course ate their meals with the Patrols. Adult and youth leaders at the Jamboree eat with the Patrols. Who eats where is not cast in Bronze. Ea.

I'm never going to drink another Mountain Dew as long as I live. Ea.

I do and do know when we have Scout Sunday and am aware that in some areas it is seen as a week long celebration. Sad thing is that in many parts of the country there isn't a lot going on in the winter months. My idea is that we have a media blitz, a coordinated effort with National, Regional, Council and units doing a hard sell to get kids to join and then get out and about doing fun activities. Not hang out in the church hall learning to tie a square knot with a old piece of frayed rope. It would be nice if each and every Council opened its camps up and invited new guys to participate in the fun activities that the camps offer. Invite the local press and TV. I don't know how many kids we could get, but if the event was big enough and nation wide it would be newsworthy. In the area I live I seen one article about one Troop celebrating Scout Sunday, it had a photo of about a dozen Scouts and their local parish priest. There is nothing wrong with that. But I don't see a lot of kids chomping at the bit to go to church. Eamonn.

Beavah - Thanks for the explanation of the "f". I thought it was some new lingo I didn't know! Like it or not, most Troops are kinda nudged into doing stuff or not doing stuff which their leaders either like or dislike. I enjoy messing around with rope and line. I enjoy playing with a map and a compass. I dislike the cold. So I'm not ever going to push for skiing or winter camping. I took the LNT Training's because I think they are important. I'm happy with the First Aid Training I have and know that every year I have to redo it for my job. I'm really not that good at any one thing (Maybe cooking?). But I don't ever see myself taking a group of Scouts on an activity that is beyond my training and comfort level. If they want to do more that I can manage, I'm happy to help them find someone or some group that can manage what it is they want. Much as I hate to admit it, I'm not as young as I once was and trying to keep up with a group of 16 and 17 year olds is becoming really hard -I know that I'm close to the age where I can't keep up and will end up slowing them down. I'm really OK with all the skills that a Lad needs to become a First Class Scout. I like to think I still have enough imagination to be able to nudge him and a PLC into using these skills to do do fun and exciting activities. I have never taken or been involved with the Powder Horn Training. I know people who have presented it and participated in it. All have said that they had a wonderful time. But for the most part it seems to be about finding groups in the area where you do your Scouting, who can provide the trainings and activities that are maybe beyond the capabilities of a Crew or Troop leader. Having lived where I now live for over 20 years I think that I know who these groups are and how to contact them. Of course some are more Scout friendly than others. Most Councils have within their ranks people who do have the expertize that kids of Scout age are able to handle. Sadly some of these guys are so expert in what they do that they forget that these kids are of Scout age. For them ( The kids.)It's just something that they maybe want to try, with not any real ambition to become expert in. If they do want to take it to the expert level they can join that group. So this begs the question "How expert do I need to be?" resqman spent part of a weekend covering splicing. I'm OK with my level of expertize in splicing, I know a lot of Sea Scouter's who are way better than I am. But for someone new to Scouting, I don't think that learning to splice is that important. Whipping? Maybe, but not splicing. I live at the base of the Laurel Mountains opportunities to do all sort of outdoor activities are right on my doorstep.The Laurel Highlands Hiking Trail, a 70-mile backpacking trail, goes from Ohiopyle, PA to the Conemaugh River near Johnstown. Is near at hand and is about as Scout friendly as any trail can be. Most new leaders should have no real problem taking a group of young Scouts to hike part of the trail. (Kinda sad that I never hear of anyone from any of the Troops close by using it). Back when I was serving as Council Training Chair, a handout that we gave at Boy Scout leader trainings was a list of local contacts and places which might be useful. I don't know if this is still being used or not. A lot of what we need to know can be learned from just doing it. As long as people don't dive in at the deep end to start with. I'm happy to go car camping and use the camp site as a base for Scouts who want to go off and do whatever it is they need to do. I'm more than happy to have Scouts work with people who know about whatever it might be than I know. We as individuals decide what we want to know and how far we will go with it. I'm never going to be a good skier. I have no interest in skiing and hate being out in the cold. I'm happy just being able to do what I do at a Boy Scout level. I don't ever see myself taking Scouts to climb any big mountains or going up the Orinoco with a long pole. When I needed to find out more and know more about navigation I took the time to work with people who were in the know and read and practice the skill. While I'm still no expert, I know enough to get by and not look to silly. - Some of th Sea Scouts are better than I am, and I'm happy about that. I'm more than happy to work with anyone who wants to pick what little brains I have left. Sad thing is that most of the guys involve in Scouting are so busy that they don't have the time or are unwilling to make the time. Eamonn.

A week or so back I started a thread about the new theme for Cub Scouting - "Words To Live By". It seems clear to me that we are not selling what we have and do to the kids but to the parents. This might work with and for Cub Scouts. I have to own up to thinking that if I hear another word about character building, or strong values, when it comes to recruiting I'm going to be sick. No kid ever joined anything to have a character adjustment unless it was court ordered! We talk about a game with a purpose and seem to want to sell the purpose and forget about the game. The Rockwell image of a clean faced, white smiling little fellow is cute -But I don't know any 12 or 13 year old boys who really want to be like him. I wonder why we don't get out there and sell the fun and adventure that Scouts and Scouting can offer? I wonder if the reason we don't is because deep down we are scared that we can't deliver? I have sat through the annual Eagle Scout recognition dinner that our Council has each year. Most of the Scouts who attend are in uniform and about 90% if not more have the AOL on their uniform. I know most of these Lads, they are the kids I see at camp when I'm there or they are active in the OA. They by no means are little angels or geeks. The goody two shoes image that many people have of Scouting just doesn't fit. Yet when it comes to selling Scouting what do we try and sell? The thing that most kids don't want to hear. The thing that I think harms us the most. To be fair to the marketing guys a little while back there were some great videos that did show Scouts doing some fun stuff. The problem was that the only people who seen them were people who were already recruited. We are not doing a very good job when it comes to marketing. Local Councils don't seem to want to spend any money on recruiting. They seem happy to wait until someone gets the local media to donate the time and space. National has come up with some really good stuff. Sad thing is that no one ever sees it. Even the ad for some car maker with a Pine Wood Derby race has the little fellow in some sort of a Brownie uniform? (I'm not sure what's that all about?) On the local level, I see the same old posed photo of the proud SM and Eagle Scout or the old folks receiving some type of an award. We do a lot of fun stuff, but no one ever sends it to the local paper or TV station. Maybe we need a "Scout Marketing Week"? A week where National, Councils and units blitz the media with all sorts of scouting stories. (I hope if it ever happens that it's not in February when it's so darn cold!!) Eamonn

I'm trying to work out what the "f" is for? Most of us would agree that a weekend working on outdoor skills is not going to do the job. But then again a lot depends on what the job is? The program that I see offered by most of the Troops in our area could be offered by two little old Ladies sipping tea. Summer Camp is the same place, same time, same site, year in and year out. Five District Camporees take care of most of the other months. Who needs skills? Eamonn

bullmoose I'm OK with history and tradition, but we if we want to survive need to be moving forward. Sometimes even things that we hold near and dear to our heart need to be looked at and at times changed. I was living in London when the first McDonald's Restaurant opened in High Street Kensington. Everything had been flown in from the USA. The arrival was big news, even making the cover of the Sunday Times Magazine. Within a very short time it became clear to McDonald's that people in he UK didn't like root-beer and thought that the milkshakes were too thick! So the root-beer was removed from all the menus and the shakes were reformulated. I feel sure that at the time there was some guy in the McDonald's corporation saying that messing with their shakes was just wrong and couldn't and shouldn't be done. When Pizza Hut arrived they found that the Brits at that time didn't like eating with their fingers so they provided knives and forks. Small changes are often needed in order to do what is needed. The BSA has been willing to work with the LDS Church and while I don't know, it does seem to me to be a partnership that has worked well for both the BSA and the Church. If we as an organization are going to survive we need to become more flexible and more knowledgeable about the groups we want to reach out too. It's just way too easy to say that all the African-Americans can be found at the local A.M.E. Church and the Hispanics are all hanging out at their local Roman Catholic Church. While of course these are wonderful places to work with, in order to develop a strong foundation that will enable us to reach the youth that they serve. We might however want to take a long hard look at why the gangs that attract so many of these young people are attracting so many? Historically it's worth remembering that much of the early successes that Scouting had in the early days in England was from attracting boy's who were members of street gangs in places like London. Ea.

Change is a strange thing. Most times when we change things, there is an element of risk involved. We are strange animals, if we like the change we tend to do our best to justify it, if we don't we complain about it. I hear on the TV about how much America is changing. How by sometime in the future Hispanics will be in the majority. But you would never guess this from looking at where I live. To be honest up until a couple of years back, I wasn't aware that there were any Hispanics in Pennsylvania. Now for work, I'm enrolled in a Survival Spanish course that I'm taking with the PA State Police. Knowing that things are changing does at times make me a little uncomfortable. I know that I have no control over what is changing, only how I'm going to deal with it. At times I can get very defensive and want everyone to be like me! (Maybe without the English accent!). Looking at the list Beavah provided: 1) BSA keeps itself a boy program? 2) BSA changes itself to a family oriented program? 3) BSA keeps it's traditional programming? 4) BSA changes it's traditional programming to accommodate the world in which it exists? 5) Does keeping or changing harm BSA more? 6) ????? 1) I'm in two minds on this one. I'm not sure that mixing kids of Cub Scout age is such a great idea. I think a lot will depend on how low the membership numbers go. If they continue to keep falling? Going coed might be a way of saving the day? 2)Cub Scouting has always supposed to have been a family oriented program. With all the talk about Parent Coordinators,I do think we are going to see moves that force parents to be more involved in what is happening at the Troop level. 3)A lot depends on how you interpret traditional programming? If we are talking about a value based program? I think that will remain. If we are talking about the activities? What they are? And where we do them? I think some changes will have to be made to accommodate the youth we want to serve and need to survive. 4)See 3! 5)As I posted there is risk when things change. I haven't looked at the hard numbers. (I'm sure that someone will correct me if I'm wrong!) But I think we have a lot less members than we once had. I'm not sure when the hay day was? Cub Scout membership seems to have fallen, even with the addition of Tiger Cubs which brought little fellows in at a younger age than Cub Scouts had in the past. I'm not sure if having a Parent/Son group has helped or harmed us? I'm not sure if having Parents get involved when their son is so young leads to the parent being burnt out before their time? The powers that be? Whoever they might be? Do need to be careful so as not to change things so quickly that the volunteers all up and quit! But if they do a good job of really field testing any change and bring it in slowly, with the option of saying that if it doesn't work? We will take a long hard look at it and be willing to say that it doesn't work. I think the change will in the long run help the BSA. How should we best "reach out" beyond our core demographic? We could start by looking at how diverse the professional work force is. If we are going to go into the areas where people live we need people who understand the community and how they go about getting things done. Maybe we could look at the relationship that the BSA has with the LDS Church and use this as a model, that would help us do a better job? We might need to look at a complete program that embraces each of the ethnic groups we hope to work with. Just having a soccer program seems to me to be selling these guys short. Everyone needs to stop looking at short term recruiting and try to build relationships that are going to survive the test of time. Units that people in the community are proud of and want to be a part of. Eamonn.

Sometimes when a question is asked, there is some kind of sixth sense that kicks in and you can guess what is coming next! When my son asks"Hey Dad do you have any cash?" I kinda know he isn't inquiring about my financial well being, he is warming up to ask to remove some of my hard earned money. I know when HWMBO asks what I want for dinner? That nine times out of ten she has already pulled the chicken from the freezer.Questions about who vote on Scouting committees, especially Cub Scout Pack Committees normally have to do with one of two things: 1/ Money. 2/ Removing someone. Let's look at number two first. As far as the BSA is concerned all adults who serve at the Unit level have been selected and approved by the CO. They were never elected, no committee really voted them into office (A nominating committee may have voted to go ahead and ask them to serve, but the final word was with the CO.) As they were never voted in, they can't be voted out. A Committee Chair can request to the COR and the CO that someone can be removed. But the committee can not remove an adult or a youth member. When it comes to number one. Money. The funds that a unit has are raised in the name of the CO and it kinda / Sorta/ might be said that they are being held by the unit for the CO (The Unit is part of the CO - If you like you might want to think of it as being the youth group of the CO.) As a rule as long as the money is being spent for what it was intended the CO's are happy to not get too involved. The COR is supposed to be the eyes and ears of the CO. So as long as he or she is a happy little camper? Everything should be fine. As to the make up of a Pack? A Pack should have two parts. The Leaders who work with the youth to deliver the program. The Pack Management Committee. -Who manage the Pack and support the youth leaders. The Cubmaster represents the youth leaders on and at the Pack Management Committee meetings. (Youth Leaders do not need to be involved with the Pack Management Committee) All members of the Pack Management Committee do need to be approved by the CO. I have sat on a lot (Way too many!!) Scouting Committees and having anything come up for a vote is very rare. The Agenda for the meeting is made by the Pack Committee Chair. Working with the COR and the CM. The meetings are as a rule fairly informal. With reports being given by the Secretary, the Treasurer and the Cubmaster. Other items are discussed and as a rule(again!!) a general consensus of opinion is reached. Non Committee members who might have been asked to chair an event are often called to give a report on what is coming up or what has gone on. Back when I was a CM. The youth leaders would meet sometime in about July to plan next years events and calender, along with the monthly themes. Most times we would follow the themes set out in Scouting Magazine. From this meeting, I'd work out a budget for the year. I'd meet with the Pack Committee and we'd go over the budget. The COR if he was there would take down all the dates of what was happening and contact the CO to make sure that any conflicts with the church hall could be avoided and that the Pack could have the hall for extra dates like the Pine Wood Derby, B & G Banquet, Scout Sunday. If he wasn't there the Chairman took care of contacting the COR and the CO. Once this was all in place most Committee Meetings just fell into place. No real need for votes or long drawn out discussions. Just taking care of the day to day management of the Pack. It is worth mentioning that the Pack Committee does need to know what is going on as they have to be ready to run the Pack if the CM should leave, until a new CM can be appointed. So... The answer to the question "Do Parents vote on committee?" Is no. Unless they have been approved by the CO and are registered members of the BSA. Eamonn.

There is adding to requirements and adding to requirements! I dont believe this. IMO there is just adding to the requirements "When I read you guys defending your arbitrary raising of the bar it amazes me how you rationalize it! Changing the rules published by your own organizationon a case-by-case basis is the most unfair demagoguery." Sometimes life just isn't all that easy. As we are so often reminded there is no requirement to wear or own a Scout uniform, in order to be a Scout. That would seem clear enough. There is an expectation that Scouts will wear a uniform to certain events. - For example a BOR. There is no such requirement, but it is kinda expected. If you are going to wear a Boy Scout uniform, it is expected that it will be a full uniform that is in neat and clean condition. Life is getting harder!! A number of Troops in the area where I live don't wear the full uniform. Then we get to some of what I see as the silly stuff. I've seen Scouts be asked to wear clean polished shoes to ESBOR! I've seen Scouts asked if they have their membership card in a certain pocket! I've Scouts be told that they ought to have a clean handkerchief in another pocket. Thats before we even get into the right time and right way that sashes should be worn. I'm OK expecting a Lad to wear a uniform -Even if it's not required. I'm not ever going to ask a Lad who is almost 18 to rush out and buy one. I'll admit that I wish that each and every Scout did wear the full and correct Boy Scout uniform, but I know that so many adults tell parents and Scouts that "We don't wear the pants in our Troop" That it's almost a lost cause. As for the membership cards, polished shoes, hankies? To my mind that's pushing it. I think when we start imposing our will on the Scouts about things that fall outside of what is considered the norm? We are going too far. I personally have a long list of things that I'm not keen on. I don't like tattoos, piercings, I think that the spiked hair thing was just strange. (I look that way first thing in the morning without the gel.) I'm glad that the baggy pants and long shorts fad seems to have past. But there is no way if Scout attended a ESBOR that I was a member of with his ears pierced, his hair spiked, his pants baggy and I love my Mom tattooed on his arm that I'd hold it against him. Eamonn. I would also expect him to be able to recite the Scout Oath and Law. But if he fumbled it? I'd bear in mind that sometimes even Supreme Court Justice's can make a mess of things.

I'm sorry1 I read it as he'd had the check and failed. Ea.

I might be wrong. But I thought that once a check was done, it came back telling if the person was allowed too serve or not? If it says no? Then the answer is no. Membership in the BSA is a privilege, the BSA can decide who they want or don't want. I'm almost sure that a CO can not override this. As the person will be around Scouts who are from other units. Maybe? Depending on what he was convicted of and how long ago it was and what he has done since an appeal could be made? Best thing is to check with your SE. Eamonn.