Eamonn

Please don't think I'm splitting hairs. I feel this might be great for a camp fire for adults. Cub Scout camp fires should be for and as far as possible be done by the Cub Scouts, with them doing the songs and skits. The Cub Scouts learn a lot about communication and self confidence when the adults move out of the way. Sure we tend to see the same old same old time and time again. But this isn't about us the adults it's all about and for the little fellows. Eamonn.

Kinda think we need a heading "Working with Parents". Anyway. Just for fun. - Please don't take this to seriously. Watching ads on TV for some medicines, I get scared when they list what the side effects are. There was one for some stuff that made your toenails stop being yellow (Not that I have or ever have had yellow toenails) The list of things that might happen scared the bejebbers out of me! If I remember correctly it listed liver and kidney failure! Knowing this, if I did have yellow toenails I'd opt to keep them! If we were to issue a warning to the parents of what might happen when their kid joins Scouts? What do you think it would say? (Remembering that this is all in fun and that there is no wrong or right answers.) Ea.

We had a mother who was kinda like this. Her daughter joined the Ship, when I was Skipper. Mom was /is a very nice Lady. In fact at times very useful. Very much a "Super-mom" who is active in just about everything and makes me tired just watching as she flies around from place to place and activity to activity. She is a member of the Ships Committee. Back when we were taking the Scouts to Camp Blue Heron, she offered to come along. Knowing that she had a van which would help transport the Scouts, I agreed. I strongly urged everyone to attend the kayaking training events we had before we went and suggested that building up upper body strength would be a good idea. Of course she was too busy for this. When we got to the camp, before they let the Scouts go on the water and out on the trek they do a days training, nothing that hard. The basics and how to deal with an over-turned boat. I don't want to come off sounding rude or unkind, but watching her was really funny. She isn't very tall and has more than a few extra pounds. While the term Beached Whale comes to mind? Even that isn't right. She splashed and splashed becoming more and more frustrated and upset, till in the end she took me to one side. She was crying! BSA Training's do not cover how to deal with adults who are crying! After talking about it we came up with the plan that she would stay in camp. She wasn't sure but with a little arm twisting from me she agreed to allow her daughter to go without her. (Later when the going got a little rough the daughter had a few tears! I wonder where that came from?) We went ahead leaving her behind. The camp was busing kids in for some sort of Cub Scout day camps. Mostly it seemed under-privileged African-American little fellows. They put Mom to work with these kids, doing crafts and Cub Scout type stuff. She had a ball. Guess who went to Camp School to be the next Day Camp Director?? The daughter is now in college, last I heard she just got engaged and is marrying a Lad who was in the same Troop that OJ was in. The Lads Dad is the guy that OJ presented his Eagle Mentor pin to. You might say: "They all lived happily ever after!" Eamonn

At the end of the day you have to do what is best for you and your son. You have to follow your heart! Many of us have served our time in positions that when the time came to move on, we felt bad about leaving. You might want to think of yourself as a house builder. You built the house, did the best job that you could. The time for the new people to move in has come. The time for you to build a new house has also come. The new owners of the house will do whatever they want with the house. They might make some wonderful improvements. They might not like some things and will want to change them. They might demolish the house. But you did your job, you build the house and moved on. What happens next? Really is up to the new house owner. Eamonn . (Yes if you are lurking? Thanks!)

The little gray cells have been flashing. I'm wondering why these parents are the way they are? I was raised in a big city, HWMBO was raised in a small rural town. Listening to the stories about her growing up and looking at my own childhood, it seems that we both were given a lot more freedom and Independence than the children of today. It seems that we both grew up in a time when there was a far better sense of community. As kids we didn't like the "Nosy little old Ladies" Who spied on us from behind lace curtains and reported every wrongdoing and sin to our parents. At times even our parents thought they were a bit of a pain! But just knowing they were out there playing Big Brother was some kind of a reassurance. Our parents seemed OK with the idea that while every child is special and most kids are good at something, not every kid is good at everything. They accepted the fact that in life there are winners and there are losers. Learning to lose is and was just as an important lesson as learning to win. We can today scare th pants of ourselves! A week or so back a co-worker was in the office looking up where sex offenders in our area live. He seemed very concerned that not far from where I live there was three names listed, he went on to say how lucky he felt that he didn't live where I live (He only had one that lived by him!) I didn't want to burst his bubble by telling him that "My three" all lived in a local nursing home. The information age has maybe given us too much information? We are overloaded with things that can drive us all nuts. Many kids suffer from "Activity Overload" All their time is on a very tight schedule. Even the normal run of the mill kids. I watched OJ, leave for school at 0630 and not return home till almost 1900, only to rush back out again to attend Scouts or some other after school activity. I watched his pain when he was upset when he didn't get the lead in the school play. I of course was happy to do nothing about this! As I seen it as a learning experience for him. I'm not sure? But back when I was young it seemed OK that a kid wanted to be plumber or car mechanic when he left school, parents seemed OK with the idea that their kid was going to do something that would earn a living wage, even it did mean that he or she got their hands dirty. Kids today don't seem to know what they want to do until they are in their mid-twenties. Schools seem happy to allow kids to leave school thinking that everyone in the world is going to be the next video game designer. Which just isn't the case, parents seem happy to spend many thousands of dollars educating their kid in a field where there just are no jobs. "Keeping up with the Joneses" seems to no longer just be about the car you drive or where you live. Little Fellows in grade school have to wear the shoes and clothes that are in style. Nine year olds are playing one-up man-ship with their cell phones. Parents seem happy to buy their kids brand new expensive cars to go to school in. OJ had school friends who drove to school in new Hummers and Mercedes. (While he had the choice of my old Ford Explorer or his 2002 Nissan.) I'm as guilty as anyone of not spending enough time with my son. When he was young I was far too busy to spend time with him! I was happy to farm him out to all day Day-Care, made sure that when he started school he went to an all day Kindergarten, employed babysitters to keep an eye on him 3 or 4 nights a week. While maybe I'm now reaping the benefits of how I spent my time then. For a very long time I was beating myself up for no spending time with him then. I kept hearing about "Quality Time". I was never sure what it was? But felt I was at fault for not providing it. I wonder if some of these helicopter parents are just feeling pangs of guilt? Both HWMBO and myself had mothers who today would be called Home-makers. They didn't work outside of the home. Both of us come from families where our parents had committed relationships. As kids weren't part of the decision making process. We were just happy to be the kids. While my family was fairly well off, her Dad seemed to have gone from job to job. Listening to her mother it seems that at times things were tough, but it seems that HWMBO never knew or felt this. I even today don't feel the need to tell my son, how much money I earn, or how much I might be worth. While he does have money that is in a trust fund and one day he will if he is lucky get whatever I manage to not spend before I die. I don't see that him knowing where every last penny is, is any of his business. The lawyers know what to do when I do kick the bucket. I of course know that I don't have all the answers. I'm not sure why people do what they do? I know that I can only live my life by my own standards and my own values. Parents who are willing to place their children in my care have very little choice but to take me as I am. I'm way too old and way to mule-headed to change at this stage of my life. I would hope that I'm willing to be as accommodating as I can be? But there comes a time when it really does become, my way or the highway. Eamonn.

Kudu While maybe the link you posted could be useful in recruiting youth members? Some of the "Executive Types" I was talking with did think that Scouts and Scouting was just a camping club. With this as their mindset they didn't really see a need to donate large amounts of money. Eamonn.

Training and teaching the parents of the Scouts /Youth we serve/ protect? Can be and sometimes is a real chore. If there is a magic formula? I know that I haven't found it. I have found that going to the home of a new member as soon after he or she joins and having a drink (Coffee!!) helps a lot. Not only do I get a better idea of what the Scouts home life is like, it also gives me the opportunity to lay my cards on the table and inform the parents where I'm coming from and at least some of my expectations. Each and everyone of us do care about the kids placed in our care. I don't think we'd be doing this if we didn't! I think that there is a difference between caring and fussing over. I'm not going to do anything to ensure that a Scout moves his bowels, but if a Lad comes to me saying he has a tummy ache, one of the first things I'll ask is "Have you had a BM?" (OK, I might use different words.) The biggest complaint I seem to get from parents is that when their son /daughter comes home from a weekend away that they are over tired. As a rule I tell the parent that I'm fine, but maybe because that's because I wasn't up half the night talking! Sure when I was a CM and I took little Lads away I marched them to the showers, I asked all the right questions, going so far as telling them to go comb or brush their hair. Please don't tell anyone but in many ways I enjoyed having these little fellows as some kind of extended family! I'm not going to do that for boy Scouts or Sea Scouts. Eamonn.

BadenP, When a Lad joins a Troop, one of the first things he works on is the Oath and Law. While maybe adult expectations and understanding of this is a lot different than that of a little fellow? We the adults do at that time map out what the expectations are. The workings of a Troop are the workings of the real world brought down to be "Boy Sized". I hate how it seems we always turn to Fast Food or Automobiles when we need an analogy but here I go. Driving a car is a privilege. The test to get a driving license is not that tough and covers the basics needed to get by. I know some states have now required that young people have to drive so many hours before they are allowed to take the test. But if they wait until they are older this isn't a requirement. We don't require that someone prove that they aren't going to speed or drive under the influence of drugs or alcohol, we take their word that they are going to be a good and safe driver. I think that I'm far more lightly to give trust freely and trust people up until they do something that makes me feel that they can't be trusted. Older Scouts in most cases have been around for a while, they have benefited from all the good stuff the program teaches. Hopefully they have also earned more trust than the new guy. I have over the years have had my share of Lads who have flaws. PL's that may have a tendency to rule with an iron fist or be a bit of a bully. I have had mixed feeling about allowing them to take a Patrol away without adult supervision. But with open two way communication (And maybe the odd hidden threat!) We managed to get by without any real problem. I don't think that the kids of today have any more or less "raging hormones" than you or I had! I agree that there is far more access to material that might feed into this, then when I was a Lad. But I feel that we are a lot more open about this sort of thing than we used to be. My Irish Catholic parents never once in my entire life talked about sex. Much of what I did learn was from older Scouts at Scout Camp.Of course there was never any talk about responsibility. With my son, even though it wasn't easy! We sat down and went over "Things"!!! Talked about what is and what isn't acceptable and again as his parent I laid out my expectations, he of course as he grew up looked at these, at times challenged these and now that he is an adult has his own thoughts and values. This just doesn't apply to sex, but too almost everything! Of course we haven't sat down and had "The Talk" about most things, but from a very early age he knew that hitting or harming someone else wasn't acceptable, he knew that taking stuff that didn't belong to him was a big no no (I wish he'd think of this when he takes my stuff!) I'm sure that whoever brought the "M" Rated games knew that they were pushing it and not doing the right thing. Of course not knowing all the details I can't say what action I'd want to take. Clearly someone has let the side down. Eamonn.

AvidSM I need to apologize to you. I had been out in the yard playing with a fallen tree limb and was kind of hot and bothered when I replied to your posting. I think I was way to hard on you. For that I'm sorry. But... My brother is four years older than I am. He was a Scout up until he was about 16. I joined when I was 7. I have two sisters, one 3 years younger than me, one seven years younger than me. Both have a son. Growing up they of course seen me toddle off to scouting events, might have noticed that most weekends I was away at camp. Very well might have seen the write ups in the local press when I made Queen's Scout. Seen the honor guard that the Scouts made for me and my then new bride after our wedding. In short they were around me and my scouting activities all the time they were growing up. This past Christmas my youngest sister, who earns more money than I can count! Arrived with her husband, a guy from the UK and her two kids, one boy, one girl. They are living in Hong Kong. We got to talking about what their kids do. The boy is a member of a swimming team, a cricket club,he likes to hike with his Dad and ride bikes. When I asked if they had thought about maybe joining a Scout Troop? She said no, that they didn't know what Scouts did! I know that Scouting was at one time big in Hong Kong, it was very much based and like on Scouting UK. I don't really know if my sister meant that she didn't know what Scouts in Hong Kong got up too? Or if she really had no idea what I'd been doing for the past 45 years? Eamonn.

At the risk of being 100% wrong I think I could come up with a fair sized list of things that all of us would agree are just wrong and should have no place in Scouting. Things that we just don't want our own children or anyone else's children to be involved in or part of. As an adult leader I'm not ever in a million years going to allow the things on "The List". I kinda think that even on this list there is a chance that somethings will need to be explained and chances are that there is going to be some gray areas. When a parent entrusts their child to me, what they get is me. If they don't want to trust me? They really shouldn't allow their child to go with me or the unit I lead. For my part I do of course have and accept the responsibility of looking after their child. Will I do everything that they do at home? Maybe not. I can't see myself ever telling a Scout to eat his vegetables, or ask if he has brushed his teeth! I will and have yelled at a Scout who has gone on deck without a PFD, we do have drills and swim tests that are by design there to help keep people safe. I am willing to do my best to protect their child from things that are dangerous or wrong. Who makes that call? I do. Parents have to trust my judgment. Things will at times not go as they are supposed too. Some Scouts will want to do things that they shouldn't. There are I suppose ways of ensuring that we avoid a lot more than we do at present. In my time as a Leader I have not as far as I know ever had a Scout take alcohol, drugs or cigarettes to a Scouting activity. The Scouts know and are aware that these are not allowed and that I'd be very upset if they were to take them. I'm OK with things just as they are. I don't see the need for a search of any kind before we go anywhere to ensure that they don't have this stuff. I know that a search would in fact prevent this type of stuff almost ever making its way to a Scouting event. Eamonn I might not have the same expectations from a group of Scouts as maybe a parent or somebody else might have, I might have different ways of enforcing or getting the message across

"The people who have no idea what scouting is about, don't want to know, and certainly don't want to pay for it." Have to say that when I read this I was a little peeved. This to me seems exactly the attitude that prevents people from knowing or finding out about what we are really doing. The people and foundations I was talking with do have money that they want and in some cases need to donate. It's way to easy to blame everyone else for just about anything! I really am having a hard time understanding: "The people who have no idea what scouting is about, don't want to know,"? If they don't know? Why would they not want to know? Surely you have to know about something in order to not be interested in it or hold an opinion about it? Ea.

Mafaking I think everyone will agree that someone along the line messed up. Each of us has values that we hold near and dear, some things that might upset me? Might not upset you? I for example can't watch movies with blood and gore in, in fact if I know it's coming I'll close my eyes real tight. I'm not that good with movies where the dog dies at the end either! Yes the tear ducts get a bit of a work out. I respect your point of view. If this upsets you? You have every right to be upset. I however don't see myself acting as a policeman at each and every event. As in my view a Scout is to be trusted and working along them lines, I shouldn't have too. I don't trust the inmates in jail, they have lost the right to be trusted. But if we want the Scouts we lead to be trusted we have to trust them. Ea.

"The problem is that too many scouters are too lazy to plan an evening campfire program of constructive activities and these games are like babysitters for them so they can go off..." Of course back when I was a Scout they sent us out on a wide game in the hope that we all got lost for a couple of hours! Ea.

Seems to me that every-time this comes up, we cover the same old same old. If I post that the rule is the rule is the rule and mention that Obedient is part of the Scout Law. Someone will post that to follow blindly is not what we are about. But for me the rule is the rule. Having never been involved or played these games it's kinda easy for me. Maybe the lines of what constitutes a "Scouting Activity" and what doesn't? Can for some be a little blurry? I have never seen this as being a problem. Some of the Scouts in the Ship carry their paintball gear in the trunk of their cars, next to their Sea Scout stuff, but next to all that is the gear they wear to work. Three different sets of gear for three different activities. Sunday I went to a graduation party for one of our Sea Scouts. Held in his family back yard by their pool. I hung out for a while, ate some food, drunk some pop, talked with the kids who were there, a good number were from the Ship. I chatted with the parents and was home in time for 60 Minutes on TV. The kids gave me heck for not bringing my swimming gear. I explained that the weather had been cold and I didn't like the idea of swimming in cold water, they of course called me a big wuss!! (And explained that the pool was heated) When I left they seemed happy playing pool basket ball. It seems after the old people had all gone and it got dark, someone came up with the idea of Skinny Dipping. I haven't heard how the parents of the graduate felt about this, I'm not sure who all was there and who dipped and who didn't. (To be honest I don't really care!) Sure a lot of the kids there were /are members of the Ship, sure skinny dipping is not allowed by the BSA. But this clearly wasn't a Scouting event. If and when they decide to do this at a Sea Scout or Scouting event, I'm going to care. The thing about water guns is new to me. Seems a little silly. But dish-washing detergent bottles work fine. I have some very large hypodermic whatever they are called? With no needles that work great. - I suppose someone will say that I'm promoting drug use? I really don't think that the odd game of paintball or Laser Tag is going to turn the youth we serve into the next group who end up spending time with me in The Big House. But I can't help coming back to the rule is the rule. Until it's changed I'm OK to live with it. I don't see that allowing these games is going to help us bring more Scouts in. I know I can offer alternatives that can fill the time that a group might want to spend playing these games. I'm happy if they want to go and play when and where they want, just as long as it's not a Scouting event. Eamonn.

Ken, I'm with you. I'm not a video gamer, I don't feel the need to be in constant contact with everyone in the free world 24/7. I enjoy music but am happy to leave my i-pod in the car and drive everyone else nuts with my singing. But two things have got me thinking. 1/ Would I serve more kids without rules about electronics? That is to say am I willing to take little Ollie and his cell phone or because he has his cell phone do I say sorry pal you can't come with it and see him walk away? 2/ I do believe that we have more imagination than to allow ourselves to be beaten by electronics. The kids I'm fortunate to work with know have to have fun, they like having fun. We go out of our way to look for fun and they soon don't feel the need to have to be plugged in or spend time texting or twittering. They are very loud, they make lots of noise and I'm lucky that they let me play with them. Eamonn. (Gern, ask your pal about non-stop singing our guys did on the kayak trip.)

I know that I'm not qualified to be of much use to you. Having said that, I have worked very closely with some DE's and a couple of them are today very dear and close friends. One problem I see of becoming a DE straight from college is that working for the BSA as a DE really doesn't prepare you for anything else. The turn-over seems to me to be high and many of the guys I know who worked as DE's end up selling insurance. You don't post what you have a degree in? I think if I were you I'd want to try and make that work for me for a while before signing on with the BSA. I do of course understand in today's job market that might not be possible. Some volunteers like the idea that the DE has worked in the real world?? It maybe in some ways makes them feel that the DE has a better understanding of what a working Joe faces everyday. The guy we have now, was going to be a priest, but that didn't work out. Before working for the BSA he worked as a professional fund raiser for a local theater. The skills and contacts he made there have been useful to him. The transition from being a youth member or a volunteer to becoming a professional can be a real eye-opener and some people find it very hard. We had one young fellow who just didn't get it. He wanted to be involved in the delivery of the program to the youth and not do the boring administrative stuff, he ended up not doing a good job in either. The last time I looked a DE was starting out at about $35k. Which in the area where I live is good. Teachers in our area start at about $26k. Of course how good $35k is depends on where you work, here in rural PA. Where housing is cheap is a lot different than Washington DC. The friends I have who have worked for the BSA for a while, have worked for several SE's. While the volunteers in a District can help make life easier for a DE, a SE or sometimes FD can make life unbearable. Good Luck. Eamonn

I think the idea of just taking away or not allowing things or activities that have some potential to cause us old codgers head-aches is such a good idea Having just spent way too much time trying to remove some stupid unwanted program from this darn computer (OJ's fault!!) There have in the last hour or so been times when I wanted to just pull the plug and to heck with it! But of course I didn't. It strikes me as being a little strange that I belong to the generation that was all for free love and if anything when we were young we were so very anti-establishment, yet it seems we are having a hard time accepting the world today as it is and seem to want it to be what it maybe isn't? Eamonn

I just posted in the spin off thread. I'll try not to repeat myself! It seems clear that someone messed up. One sad, bad thing about messing up is that most times you can't un-mess the mess. The games have been played they can't turn back the clock and start over. I have to wonder what the parent was so upset about? Clearly as a family they aren't in favor of these sort of games. If they are upset that their son was exposed to this material? They should without a doubt pull their son out of this Troop. Were they upset with the leaders response? I have to admit to finding it very lame. But I have to also admit to not knowing very much about video games. I would have no choice but to go with the rating on the boxes. Still having said that I think that maybe if a Scout were to show me that one particular game wasn't really bad, I might be persuaded to let it go. I kinda think a lot of things would depend on the situation, the age and maturity of the Scouts and game itself. OJ has a fair amount of these games but seems to play American Football, Hockey, and a game about stealing cars?? A lot. -I'm not in favor of anyone stealing cars, but it seems so far out that? I also know that my son is not going to go out and start stealing cars. Back when he was attending Catholic School there was a Nintendo game that he had that dealt with something supernatural, his cousin gave him a book that had back-doors and some sort of codes for the game. One of the Nuns seen the book, she took it from him and spent 45 minutes on the phone telling me that I allowing my son to become exposed to Devil worship. - I found that to be a little over the top. You ask: "How do you handle this?" I'm not sure who you are asking? As a parent? As a Leader? I think as a Leader, if this parent called me. My first thing would be to apologize to the parent. I really would be upset that she and her family were upset. I would admit that I'd messed up. Knowing that I wasn't able to undo what had been done, I'd give her my assurances that this would be looked at and something would be done. I don't think I'd be able to tell her what would be done just yet as I wouldn't know. I might tell her that I'd get back to her when I did know. I would take a long hard look at what went wrong and why it went wrong? I'd look at and for ways to ensure that any future misunderstandings could be avoided. As a parent? I think I'd want to know more about what games were played. I'd need a lot more information, before I'd pull my son from the Troop. Some things for me would be important that might not be so important to others. For example if a Scout was the one who was guilty of sneaking the game in? Would be a lot different than if an adult was the one who brought the game in? I think the age of my son would come into play. I would hope that my son at 16 or 17 would be able to make better choices than he might have made when he was 11 or 12. I'd be very disappointed that the promise of ensuring that "no games may be rated above teen and no movies above pg13. Parents of new scouts were told that this would be strictly adhered to." Wasn't kept and would want to know what happened and why this wasn't followed through with? At the end of the day I'd be left wondering or thinking: How much real harm had been done to my son? Can the adults in the Troop be trusted? What are my options as a parent? Me being me! I really don't think that my kid playing a video game, even one that I don't approve of is going to cause him any real harm. My bigger concern would be that the adults didn't keep their word and if they mess up on his one? What is the likelihood of them messing up again? With this in mind, I'd look back at how they have acted in the past and how my kid feels about staying or leaving the Troop? I might want to give some thought to doing something to help ensure that this doesn't happen again, by maybe suggesting that I make myself available to serve the Troop in some way? But to be really honest for me personally I tend to think that this is very much a storm in a tea-cup and while maybe something needs to be done to keep everyone happy and avoid anyone getting upset. - I'd be happy to just move along. Eamonn.

To protect or to serve? At work in jail, I'm charged with the Care, Control and Custody of the inmates. For about a minute I thought that this might fit into a Scout Leaders role. I seen that this isn't the case. Or maybe I seen that this shouldn't be the case. I really liked the idea and still like the idea that Scouts and Scouting was a Safe Haven, where no one gets hurt in body or in spirit. I do however see that the Controlled Risk thinking makes more sense. At work, along with protecting the public from these dangerous convicts, part of my job is to protect the State (And myself.) from law suits that these guys might want to pursue. I do this by following the policies laid down by the State. These guys are under constant observation and supervision. They have very little choice about most things, they go where they are told to go when they are told to be there, they eat what is on the menu or don't eat, the lights go out at a set time, they wake up at a set time. Everything they own is subject to be searched and can be taken away from them. This is done to ensure the smooth running of the jail and the safety of all the inmates. I really hope that no Boy Scout Unit is ever run like this. The guys in jail have made it known that they are unable to be trusted. The youth we serve are learning how to be trusted and the best way of teaching them that is to place them in situations where trust is placed on them. When it comes "To protect or to serve?" I think a balance of some kind is needed and in order. As I seem to keep posting, I'm not very much in favor of long lists of rules, regulations, by-laws and that sort of thing. For me most of what we do is all about knowing the youth that we serve and being able to help guide them. I see guide as being different than control. At times the youth we serve do not live up to the expectations that I have or might be expected from a Scout. The good thing about this is that we all can learn from this happening. We as adults are supposed to be on top of things! Parents do have a right to think that when the hand their kids over to us that we are going to make every effort to take care of their children. But they do need to know and understand that there is some risk involved. The risk might be that their kid is going to fall out of a tree or that another Scout is going to sneak a copy of Playboy Magazine into the camp. One thing that older, more experienced leaders have on younger new leaders is just having been around the youth for longer. Many of us have seen the new leader who has crossed over from the pack, who wants to oversee everything and is unable to trust the Scouts, wanting to make sure that everything is perfectly ship shape and in order. (I've seen these guys tell Scouts to brush their teeth!!) The guy or gal? Who has been around for a while kinda gets a sense of when they need to step in and when not to. The risk for us adult leaders is that at times this sort of "Open Leadership"? will come back and bite us on the tail. "Boy's will be Boy's" seems to now be seen as something that we shouldn't even say let alone practice, but the hard truth is that they will be boys! Scouts and Scouting has to be a learning and growing experience for the youth members, parents have to understand this. They need to be informed that there is some risk involved, but at the same time we need to safeguard the youth we serve from as much unnecessary risk as we can. A big part of this is knowing the kids and knowing their parents. Lord knows I have messed up a lot of times. (I'm thinking of the HBO Robin Williams special that the Sea Scouts played on a TV, one Winter Training weekend!) When this happens I found the best way of dealing with it was to talk to the youth about what happened and to come to some agreement as to why it ought not happen again! Then tell the parents what happened, before the "News" gets out and has a chance to be embellished or made sound worse than it really is or was. There is some risk in frying bacon. The bacon will spit and splatter hot grease. Frying bacon with no clothes on is not a good idea. Do we stop having bacon or ask the bacon fryer to put a shirt and pants on? Even then will someone still want to fry the bacon without a shirt on? Will an adult always be around to supervise the cooking of the bacon? Eamonn

Hal, The guy we had with the long list was and maybe still is? A HS Band Director, he is no longer involved in Scouting. In fact the Troop has folded. I don't know what badges he covered or if he really was qualified for all of them.. He was within the rules. When I asked the Council Advancement Chair about this he explained to me that the reason for not having a limit was to ensure that Scouts in remote areas would still be able to participate fully. He was an ASM in the Troop that OJ first joined. OJ quit because they were just giving away merit badges. I have posted before how I got a call from a very upset parent. Her son was working on the Dog care badge. He it seems was doing everything right. They made an appointment to meet with the SM of this Troop, he came to the door, asked the Lad if he had a dog?The Lad said that he did and then and there without anymore ado he signed the card and sent the Lad and his mother on their way. Mum was upset that her son had done all the work for what to her seemed for nothing. Beavah, Your right about the District I serve being small. Everyone seems to know everyone. Very few of the SM's have less than ten years in and a lot have been around for what seems forever. Like most Districts we have a couple of really wonderful Troops that tend to do things mostly by the book. We have a lot of Troops that on the whole do a good job. While no one is asking me I tend to think that maybe they have become a little stale and rely on doing the same old same old, but for the most part the kids that join and stay do get a fairly good program. Then we have a couple of Troops that at times make me wonder if they belong to the same organization that I do? One or two of these do tend to do their own thing when it comes to advancement and merit badges. The Troop OJ first joined held regular MB classes in place of Troop meetings. The only requirement to get the badge was to turn up for the class. (I attended the class they offered on the then Atomic Energy Badge. The guy they had recruited was talking way above my understanding, not that I'm that bright! The Scouts clearly had no idea what he was talking about, a the time OJ was 11 or 12. But at the next COH 16 Scouts all got the Atomic Energy badge. I think the guy did know what he was talking about?? But he had never been approved as a MBC.) While a Lad from Troop 123, a Troop that has a history of doing things right will show up for a ESBOR and rightly or wrongly the Board will kinda know that everything is in order, a Lad from Troop 567, a Troop that has a history of playing fast and free with things will attract a closer inspection from the Board. In the District I'm in we have the ESBOR in a District setting with a committee member from the Troop invited to attend (Sometimes a ASM or another warm body shows!!)Questions about who did what and when that haven't been addressed before then are directed at him or her. I would hope that no one would deny a Scout something that he has earned because of a paper-work mix up. But when it becomes clear that a Troop (The adults in the Troop) are not playing by the rules these adults need to be held accountable for their actions. If no one is going to be held accountable? Why have a system in place to start with? Eamonn

One of the biggest headaches I had back when I was serving as District Chairman was the darn MBC List. It hadn't been up-dated for a very long time, so long that the first three people named were dead and in the grave! Some people had moved, some had quit. It was a real mess. One Troop had a guy who was listed as the MBC for over 35 badges! The "Rules" say that this is OK! Working with the Advancement Committee and the Dean of Merit Badges we came up with the only solution that we thought would work. Scrap the list and start over. We gave several months notice and said that any Scout who was actively working on a MB could continue. Applications were send out to each and every Troop and people we knew who were on the list and active ere invited to re-submit a new application. We reminded everyone that the term of office for a MBC is a year. The Dean of Merit Badges armed with a program that I think came from the guys who do Troopmaster listed all the names of the people who had been approved by the Advancement Committee. We asked that the Council Registrar check the names of the MBC against the District list. She wasn't overjoyed about doing so, but her boss gave her a friendly nudge. The Advancement Committee (Normally the Dean of MB's) does check the list of MB's when a Scout sends in his Eagle Scout Application and does check the blue cards making sure the people who signed off are people on the District list. The Registrar has had a few cards with strange names on. When this happens she calls the Advancement chair and he contacts the unit for an explanation. So far this seems to work well. As far as I know only a few cards have been signed by people who were not on the District list. I would hate for a Lad to arrive at his ESBOR and be asked "Who did you do First Aid Merit Badge with?" and it be discovered that the person was never on the list. As for: "Yah, I reckon this is one of those silly Scoutin' urban legends, eh?" No it's no legend -eh?? Eamonn Eamonn.(This message has been edited by Eamonn)

Seems that you have got a lot of good information from the forum members! (Stick around and after a while you will find the people that you want to take notice of!!) It is worth mentioning that all MBC should be approved by the District. As a rule by the District Advancement Committee. Some Districts do have a Dean of Merit Badges. Others don't. Having people who are not approved and o the District MBC List, does have the potential of maybe causing problems at a later date. I'm think of when a Lad makes his Eagle Scout Application. Some of the stuff you think you knew??? Is not right. Reading the stuff that others have said you should is a good idea, you might also want to have a chat with your District Advancement Chair. It is also worth bearing in mind that our role as adults is to help and support the Scouts we serve. Not try and place hurdles and obstacles in their way. Doing the right thing is of course always the way to go. I'm not at all in favor of Troop Rules, bylaws and that sort of thing, as I believe the BSA does a good job of outlining the stuff we need. Ea.

On my honor I will do my best To do my duty to God and my country and to obey the Scout Law; To help other people at all times; To keep myself physically strong, mentally awake, and morally straight. In the other thread it was suggested that when someone fails to meet an expected standard of morality, that morality has failed. In that thread I said that each of us has ownership of the oath we make. My best might not be as good as your best, my idea of duty might be very different than yours? Many of us have different ideas of who or what God is and how God goes about dealing with things. For some of us duty to God might have a lot to do with the religion we practice or follow, for some it just is a way of doing things, while for me it's a mix of the religion I practice and the way I go about dealing with things. Standards of morality are at times hard to deal with. I know at the end of the day the only person I can really be responsible for is myself. I know what I have done that was right and what was wrong. My "Right" and my "Wrong" might not be the same as anyone else's. While of course much that has been written about Robin Hood is fiction. Some might say that Robin Hood was a good guy. The idea of taking from the rich to give to the poor. Might not seem that bad. But some will say that the bottom line was that he was taking stuff that didn't belong to him. This makes him a bad guy. Part of why we do what we do for the youth that we serve is to help them make ethical choices. The best tool we have to help us do this is the Scout Law. Trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, obedient, cheerful, thrifty, brave, clean, and reverent. Trying to live by the Oath and Law is no easy task. It seems that every time you think that you have it mastered the bar seems to be raised a little! I know in my case that as I have got older my interpretation of the words has changed or I now see them in a different light than I used too. (I'm not sure if this is wisdom or just old age?) I'm 100% convinced that the example I set does have an effect on the people around me and the youth that I serve. My hope is that they take the good stuff that I'm able to show and leave the not so good stuff behind. Eamonn.

I don't see any real problem with the $15.00 But I suppose $12.00 would have made life a little too easy? Ea.

"Or say I am a Christian. Could I discuss supporting any Islamic group freely with my religious leader? That would be frowned upon." I'm a Roman Catholic. I had lunch today with a Rabi, a Imam and a Presbyterian. A few weeks back I went out of my way to ensure that the Jewish people where I work were able to celebrate the festival of Passover. I have helped organize Ramadan for the Muslims and the Feast of Green Corn for Native Americans. For me "Morally straight" Is as I posted doing the right thing, just because it's the right thing to do. Each of us has ownership of the oath we make: On my honor I will do my best To do my duty to God and my country. It's way too easy to try and make it a "One size fits all" but that just isn't the case. Eamonn