Eamonn

I have a hard time not singing "As Shepperd's washed their socks by night" Eamonn.

Raybz Hi and Welcome to the forum. It's a shame that the unit your in didn't follow the Nominating Procedure that the BSA has to fill positions. A lot of people say that it has too many steps, but I have found that in most cases it works really well. Kristi, Ask the Commish where it says you have to be a Cub Scouter to be day camp director? Sure you have to be NCS Trained but I have yet to see where it says that you have to be a Cub Scouter. In fact to my way of thinking CM's just don't have the time. -They are busy getting the little Lads to camp!! I think he is full of beans!! Eamonn.

FScouter, I was going to PM you, but I had second thoughts. I like to think that my ethics are fine and dandy. What I didn't do a very good job of was explaining the ethical dilemma, we sometimes face. If we say it's wrong to gamble (Sell tickets) Why is it OK to accept money that was raised that way? If we say Paintball it is an activity that 'projects' violence at living things. Why are we field testing a hunting merit badge? I'm OK with following the rules. I think that following the rules is the ethical thing to do. Still there are times when the rules, ethics and belief's don't go hand in hand. I just had a lengthy chat with a friend of mine who claims to be pro-life, but supports the death penalty. - I'm working on that one!! Eamonn.

I don't want to be rude or anything like that, but now it sounds like you were looking for a reason to leave. Eamonn I'm not saying it's a bad thing, other than I'd feel that "They" had won!!

I don't know about New York? But as we are the only Ship in our council and there hasn't been one for a very long time, finding a UC who isn't going to get in the way?? Just wasn't doable. It really isn't up to you to find a UC. I'd give the District Commissioner a call. Eamonn.

I have taken my uniform to work and changed into it. Many of my co-workers and clients have seen me in my uniform, but somehow the idea of a "Wear You Uniform To Work Day" doesn't seem to sit very well. We have dress down days twice a month. I don't dress down. I do have a couple of BSA ties, that I wear, one jacket has a James E. West pin and I do wear my Silver Beaver tie pin, normally if I'm attending a Scouting meeting after work and not wearing uniform. Strange thing is that the further you move from the unit level the less you seem to wear the Field Uniform and I don't think I'm ever going to buy the BSA dress uniform. I did buy a couple of Sea Scout dress uniforms, I have only got to wear one once! Eamonn.

Please don't tell anyone! But I'm not that mad about "On My Honor". I heard what a few Wood Saffers have done to that -Rory would do a better job!! Eamonn

Thinking back to when I was a Scout. Skip our SM had: No long pants at camp. (Winter camp long pants were OK. - He decided what the Season was!!) No Socks till Lunch time -His thinking was that if you had socks wet from the dew you had wet feet all day. No wearing anything to bed that you wore during the day. At this time in the UK people still wore PJ's and he'd check to make sure that nothing was under the PJ's -Can't see that ever happening today!! No Singing Green Grow The Rushes -He hated that song. He had a book of rules that no one could ever remember about Axes and Knifes. I remember that there were no axes in the Patrol boxes, he liked bow saws. He really was a super nice fellow, I loved him dearly. We were the most active Troop ever, doing stuff almost every weekend and meeting 3 nights a week. But it was his Troop. Eamonn.

While I'm sure someone will prove me wrong!! I think each camp has specific needs and the Commissioner In Training program they offer is based on the needs of the camp and the area in which will be worked. Last year at Camp Conestoga we had 16 or 17 Scouts attend Summer camp as CIT's. The big thing was exposing these Scouts to what being a camp staff member is all about. As far as I know most of them are coming back to serve as Staff members this year. Many in the areas that they worked in last summer. Eamonn.

I have to admit to kinda being with FScouter. But for all the wrong reasons!! Please excuse my French, but I'll be damned if I'm going to let a pushy Mom (or two) and a little Lad get the better of me. Call it pride, call it ego, but if I knew I hadn't done anything wrong I'd stay. I'd meet with the Parents, tell them what they were doing wasn't right, wasn't doing the right thing for their kids. I'd let them know that I would be willing to accept their apology, however if it wasn't forthcming, I'd let them know that I'm staying. If they were unhappy with that,a list of other packs in the area is available and don't let the door hit you on the way out. Eamonn.

FScouter I'm trying!! Our Boatswain and Boatswain's Mate are two really great kids, with parents who are behind them 100% - But at times the parents end up doing everything or pushing to make sure it's done. We do need to ensure that everyone (Adults as well as Scouts) are held accountable for doing what they say they are going to do. While I'm blaming a lot on communication, I think part of what we are going through is a "Storming" phase. "Supervisors of the team during this phase may be more accessible but tend to still need to be directive in their guidance of the decision-making process and professional behavior" Could it be that I need to be more directive? I was with the last Troop I served for a little over 11 years -A lot of the problems were so long ago that maybe I need to slow down a little? Eamonn.

When we first started the Ship, I did all the work!! The first few months activities, ideas and meetings were all mine!! Now at the ripe old age of six months, I have taken a few steps back. All of our Petty Officers (Youth Leaders) have completed Quarterdeck Training, all were elected by their fellow Sea Scouts. We hold regular monthly Quarterdeck Meetings (A lot like a PLC) The ideas and things that come from these meetings are really good. They are met with more than a fair share of enthusiasm, but when it comes to participating things fall a little flat. Scouts who have said that they will do things get busy doing something else or they just seem to lose interest in doing what they once seemed to think was a good idea. Our Purser sends out e-mails and permission forms, the Crew Leaders send out reminders, but something isn't working. We have just started a monthly News Sheet. I'm trying not to say or write too much. When I do bump into any of the Scout's parents I do put in a plug for what we are doing, but I feel that it isn't my job to be phoning or e-mailing parents. If you like I have adopted a "If they build it, they will come" attitude! The girls seem to be a lot better than the boys!! I'm starting to think that the boys who are or have been Boy Scouts have got used to not keeping commitments they have made because they "Got away" with it in the Troops they were in. Any ideas would be welcome. Eamonn.

I was talking to our old DE on the phone. We are still very good friends and she now serves on the Ship's Committee. We were looking back, taking a walk down memory lane. We laughed about all the work we had put into running Day Camps, fussing to meet Standards. We laughed about my grand stand production at a District Committee meeting where I said if we had another Camporee with a string burning contest I'd go nuts!! We talked about the good people in the District and some of the twits (Yes I know it's not very Scout-like.) We laughed about the time when the Webelos Scouts were sleeping in a cabin and were attacked by a "Killer Mouse" and when OJ went winter camping at Twin Echo and was worried if he sat on the metal toilet seat that he would be frozen to it. I said how OJ and the Lodge Chief were taking the Explorer up to camp this weekend and how they had all met to go to a restaurant last week and eat chicken wings. I said how lucky I felt that the kids he runs with are all good kids and how I wished they would not drive as fast!! I said how much the Ship and I were looking forward to the high adventure sea kayaking trip. You and your Lad can do all this without being a member of the BSA. I can't look inside of my Lads head. I'm not sure I want to!! But he is going to be 18 this year. I think he thinks the most important thing in his life right now is his friends. He is as busy as all the kids his age are. I didn't pick his friends for him, I know that his involvement in Scouting, the OA and now the Ship has helped shape who his friends are. Lord knows that they aren't Angels, but they are good kids. Kids who have parents who have stood by them. They have driven to camp to eat really bad food, sat through pack meetings where the acoustics are so bad that they haven't heard a word. They have forked over their hard earned cash to send their kid to Philmont, Jamborees, Camporees, bought uniforms, sewed patches on the wrong pocket and had to redo it. Some have had the time to be with their son along the way, many were there part of the way. I agree it's one heck of an investment. Time, money, frustration, dealing with people that maybe you don't like or have a hard time working with. But I think the investment pays off. In time the little Lad who lives in your house will want less and less to do with you. Try as hard as you like, he is going to grow up into his own man. If you don't let him or try to stop him, he is going to like you even less. He may decide that he doesn't want to remain in Scouting. But when I see what Scouting has done for my Lad, I couldn't be more happy with the pay off from my investment. It's not a get rich quick investment and maybe I've been lucky. You have to decide what is best for you and your family, but I think if you look at the long term plan of what Scouting could do for your Lad, you will do everything you can not to allow him to leave. Eamonn

I was talking to our old DE on the phone. We are still very good friends and she now serves on the Ship's Committee. We were looking back, taking a walk down memory lane. We laughed about all the work we had put into running Day Camps, fussing to meet Standards. We laughed about my grand stand production at a District Committee meeting where I said if we had another Camporee with a string burning contest I'd go nuts!! We talked about the good people in the District and some of the twits (Yes I know it's not very Scout-like.) We laughed about the time when the Webelos Scouts were sleeping in a cabin and were attacked by a "Killer Mouse" and when OJ went winter camping at Twin Echo and was worried if he sat on the metal toilet seat that he would be frozen to it. I said how OJ and the Lodge Chief were taking the Explorer up to camp this weekend and how they had all met to go to a restaurant last week and eat chicken wings. I said how lucky I felt that the kids he runs with are all good kids and how I wished they would not drive as fast!! I said how much the Ship and I were looking forward to the high adventure sea kayaking trip. You and your Lad can do all this without being a member of the BSA. I can't look inside of my Lads head. I'm not sure I want to!! But he is going to be 18 this year. I think he thinks the most important thing in his life right now is his friends. He is as busy as all the kids his age are. I didn't pick his friends for him, I know that his involvement in Scouting, the OA and now the Ship has helped shape who his friends are. Lord knows that they aren't Angels, but they are good kids. Kids who have parents who have stood by them. They have driven to camp to eat really bad food, sat through pack meetings where the acoustics are so bad that they haven't heard a word. They have forked over their hard earned cash to send their kid to Philmont, Jamborees, Camporees, bought uniforms, sewed patches on the wrong pocket and had to redo it. Some have had the time to be with their son along the way, many were there part of the way. I agree it's one heck of an investment. Time, money, frustration, dealing with people that maybe you don't like or have a hard time working with. But I think the investment pays off. In time the little Lad who lives in your house will want less and less to do with you. Try as hard as you like, he is going to grow up into his own man. If you don't let him or try to stop him, he is going to like you even less. He may decide that he doesn't want to remain in Scouting. But when I see what Scouting has done for my Lad, I couldn't be more happy with the pay off from my investment. It's not a get rich quick investment and maybe I've been lucky. You have to decide what is best for you and your family, but I think if you look at the long term plan of what Scouting could do for your Lad, you will do everything you can not to allow him to leave. Eamonn

Items other than temp patches that are worn on the official uniform are the property of the BSA and need to be approved by the National Council. If you can't find it in the Insignia Guide or other Official BSA publication it's not official. Does everyone follow the rules? There'a enough there for a 20 page thread!! Eamonn

"The Quality Leader Program is administered by the Longhorn District, and Unit Commissioners." No it's not a National Program Eamonn

So, are we talking about what is best for you or your son? Eamonn

I have never been Paint balling and admit that other than watching the USA Paintball Championships on the TV, I know very little about it. I don't have an overwhelming desire to go or do much much more than I'm doing now. We have one Scout that seems to be into it, he has all the equipment in the trunk of his car. In fact this Lad has everything in the trunk of his car, there is even a toilet seat which has a story behind it, which I don't want to know. This ethical thing is a hard one at times. I was moaning and groaning to our CO about our lack of money and what a bad job the Scouts are doing with fund raising. We have the local Elks as our CO. Their response was "You need to sell a ticket!!" I explained that this wasn't in line with the BSA. Someone suggested the old "Friends of.." idea. I said I wasn't comfortable with this as it would seem we were looking for loop holes. In the end the Elks said that they were having a Cash Bash and they would donate to the Ship money that they raised from the event. If at a Quarterdeck meeting the idea of the Ship going Paint balling was brought up. I would have to squash it. If the Scout who is into Paint Balling wants to invite his pals to go Paint Balling, that would be up to them. I'm going to distance the Ship from this as much as I can. If parents call me I will explain that it isn't a Sea Scout activity. I'm not going to promote it or have anything to do with it. In my own little way I will hope that they have a good time and hope that no one gets hurt. I do think if we go looking for loop holes we are doing the Scouts we serve a disservice. I'm not saying anyone is looking for these. -But if they were. Eamonn.

I'm not into patches, collecting or that sort of thing. I have over the years amassed a lot of stuff. It doesn't mean very much to me, so I'm thinking of selling it. I will use the money to help buy a 15 seater van for the Ship. For the 2005 National Jamboree our Council had a CSP with Mr Rodgers on. The patch was a very limited run, no one person got more than 25. After the Jamboree when there was a lot of CSP's on ebay, they were selling for about $6.00 each. Patch collectors in our Council would go as high as $10 maybe $15.00 each. There was a special patch made with a gold boarder. Only ten were made. One went to Mrs Rogers, one went to Mr. McFeely (David Newell) The Council Key 3 each got one and the two Jamboree Scoutmasters each got one. I'm not sure where the others are!! Talking with the Patch Collectors, they seem to think that one of these Patches would sell in the $250 to $500 range. Right now it's still in the frame that it was in when I received it and stuck in a drawer. I had thought about giving it to the Lad who came up with the idea and the design, as I feel he should have got one and didn't. Would selling it be OK? Eamonn.

I have only ever had to select a Staff for a course once. It was a cluster course serving six Councils. My mentor for the course was/is our Council Wood Badge coordinator. At that time I was serving as Council Training Chairman. Our Council is a small Council, I like to think that I know everyone (I don't) I sent out a letter to each of the Councils and each of our District Training Chairs asking for names of people that they would recommend to serve on Wood Badge Staff. The Cluster Council thing is a strange animal to deal with all sorts of things come into play, but the hard thing I had to learn is that not all Councils are the same and run things the same way. Two Councils never replied, one sent a full list of everyone in that Council who was Wood Badge Trained, one sent a list of people who had served on staff before and two sent lists of people who the Wood Badge Coordinator/ Council Training Chair, thought would do a good job. The lists from the District Training Chairs didn't offer any surprises, I knew all the names. I also had served on staff for two courses within the cluster within the past 3 years. I had the names of all the participants. There were a few names I thought had possibilities. People who weren't from my home Council. Before I could ask them I had to get permission to ask. scoutldr,makes a good point about people who seem to be at everything and do everything, but it might be worth mentioning that these people also leave themselves open to allowing their not so nice side open to scrutiny. I had all these list of names. I tried very hard not to allow my own personal feelings come into play. My not liking someone ought not be a reason to take them off the list. But if they were the type that hated the Council, never wore the uniform, ... You know the type. They didn't stand a chance. If they had been involved in Training before and just hadn't got it. Like th guy who got up and talked about his hat for 20 minutes!! I wasn't willing to take that risk. We ended up with a full course. We only had six people who had served on Staff before. Four of the Staff were female. Only one was from Venturering. One was/is an Area President. One was a Council Vice-President. The SPL was at that time a District Chairman. The rest were a mix of Cub Scouters and Boy Scouters, nearly all had at some time helped with training's at either the District or Council level. Eamonn. PS. I'd be happy to see the "Extra Beads" done away with. I do wear my four beads, but I'd be happy if we all wore just the two. In fact I don't wear any with the Sea Scout uniform. (This message has been edited by Eamonn)

As you say explaining what the uniform is will only take a matter of minutes. Explaining the Uniform Method is the hard part. As a Trainer you have to set aside all your views and any tweaks and cover the what the BSA has to offer. Uniform can be a very hot topic,some people have very strong views and without a good presentation things can get out of hand. (Why am I thinking about the Monty Python Argument sketch?) It is worth remembering that what you say could impact a lot of people for a very long time. The participants are going to take what you say home with them and use it for a very long time. I've lost count of the times that people have said "So and So said at Training that we can...." Stick to the syllabus. You can look at what the Uniform Goal really is and how to get there. This could cover where to find uniforms. How to pay for uniforms. (I'm always amazed that units raise money to send Scouts to camp, but don't raise money to help pay for uniforms!) Why uniforming is important. Eamonn.

Judge? Maybe for a moment we need to look at replacing the word judge with "Meeting Expectations" Sadly a good number of Chartered Organizations either don't know or don't want to know what is happening in their Scout units. It's hard to judge something when you don't know what is going on and if they don't have any expectations, the DE is at fault. The DE is the person who is in charge of ensuring that the relationship between the BSA and the outside organization is a healthy one. When it comes to unit leaders I feel that they have to ensure that the program offered meets the expectations of the youth they serve. Youth members judge a unit and vote with their feet. Most established units are capable of providing a worth while program with very minimal support from the professionals. When it comes to judging the pros? Different groups have different expectations. What I expect from our DE now that I'm back at the unit level is very different that what I expected when I was District Chairman. The tool most used to judge if expectations are being met is "Quality" I'm not sure if units attach a lot of importance to being a Quality Unit or not? I might be wrong ? But most units I know don't make being a Quality Unit a goal. If they fall into meeting the requirements, that's fine but if they don't? It's no big deal. Quality District seems to be a much bigger deal. Could it be that District types have bigger egos? Also when it comes to Quality District and Quality Council careers are on the line. We can agree or disagree about what the requirements should be, but the requirements are what they are and while these requirements might meet the needs of the Region and National, they may not be seen by the unit volunteers as doing anything to meet their needs or expectations. I don't have all the information at hand, but the expense of running a Council is not cheap. I have never done any comparisons with other organizations so I don't know if the costs are in line or not. The Median Household Income for our area is $38,040. The starting rate for a DE is over $30,000. Many volunteers and parents have a hard time handing their hard earned money over to help pay the wages of someone who is earning more than they are. Some might be unhappy with the level of service they are getting. This of course doesn't mean that the DE or the other Professionals are not doing their job, it just means that they are not meeting the expectations of the person they are asking for the money. My thinking is that it is up to them to find a way of winning that person over. That might mean that they have to do a better job of explaining what they are doing or improving the level of service so that they are meeting the expectations. Again my thinking is that a lot of pros are not doing a very good job of letting people know what they are doing. In fact we as an organization don't do a very good job of telling people outside of Scouting know what we are doing. Sure they have heard about Scouting and the BSA, but if you ask they have no idea what we really do. We just interviewed 30 people about donating to our Council. I thought everyone was aware of what Scouts and Scouting was all about. I was wrong two thirds of the people had no idea. They wanted hard numbers and details about what we were all about. The strange thing was that our big selling point was the programs that the units are offering. Eamonn.

A couple of things. I didn't offer any help with a Troop Handbook, because I don't think they are needed. Most of the ones I've seen tend to be Rule Books and many of the rules are not in line with the way things should be done. I did ask what sort of Handbook? But so far babybear4747 has not explained what this guide is. Sometime back I asked in these Forums if the Ticket should be taken out of the course? At times I feel the "Ticket Thing" becomes bigger than the course. Since then I have read a lot of what people have posted and a good many have said how much they have got from the "Ticket Thing". I was pleased to hear that some changes had been made to the course and that the Diversity Presentation had been moved to an earlier spot. Most courses take about a month or more from start to end. I really feel that if a participant has a grasp on his / her Vision and Mission the task of coming up with the goals is not that hard. There is a lot of work that needs to be done in the time between the weekends, but the Troop Guides and the Staff and the other participants are all great resources. The key is making sure that everyone has a good understanding of what their vision and mission is. Just about everybody in the forum could in a very few minutes type up a set of goals that could be used a Ticket items, but these goals would just be busy work, they are not necessarily going to the right fit for someone else's vision and mission. I still use the ticket idea a lot. I like the idea of taking the time to see where we are (Evaluation) Think about where we are going and where we want to be. When I'm very honest with myself I can see the areas that need to be worked on. Sometimes this is stuff that is all down to me. Things that I'm not doing a very good job with. Sometimes it's coming up with specific goals. These might have to do with membership, advancement, money. Of course there isn't any Ticket Counselor, but very often I'll share these with the youth leaders and if need be change them or tweak them a little, if I'm very lucky they will buy into these and we share the ownership. When the time we or I have set is up, it's time to start over. Eamonn

Not trying to hijack the thread but... Older Scouts are moving from dependence to Independence. Depending on the Scout this can be a time of rebellion, confusion and at times self-righteousness. They have all this going on and they also have a great sense of justice. They can become very upset about what they perceive as injustice, even if what is happening has nothing to do with them. They question everything and silly rules can be the straw that breaks the camels back and be the reason why they quit Scouts. The easy thing to do is to turn around and say that this is the rule -Take it or leave. It takes a lot more time to listen to why they think this is a silly rule? Explain the reasoning behind the rule and maybe be willing to change things or come up with a solution that keeps everyone happy. Eamonn.

When we start questioning peoples motivation or the reason why they do what they are doing we run the danger of setting ourselves up as judge and jury. In another thread Eagledad (Barry) said how important it is that we communicate what Scouting is all about. Parents know what the Eagle Scout Rank is. They know that we go camping and help little old ladies across the road. But they need to know about the vision and mission, the aims and the methods. We as adult leaders do over the years get to know the Lads. There are Scouts who are Merit Badge Hounds. They like working on Merit Badges, they enjoy the recognition they bask in the glory. I'm more than happy to help that Lad as much as I can. Some Scouts think that they can do this and cut corners. I'm happy to share with him that this is not the way things are done. If a Lad really is unhappy being a Scout, I would hope we would focus on the things that he does like and I would try and sway him around by doing what ever is possible to provide him with the fun, adventure and challenges that he needs. I know that there is no way I'm going to retain every Lad, but I sure as heck will give it my best shot. For him not his parents. Eamonn.