Eagledad

I'm not so sure. I think they are too far from the trenches to feel enough humility to change. I had an opportunity to talk with a National professional once about program and the problems we were seeing at the district level. I commented about the burnout problem of the Cub program. He looked at me very seriously and said, in a condescending tone, "OK, what do you think we should do about it?" I said consider the idea of stepping back with Tigers. He said, "impossible!", and walked off. The walking off said more than his impossible response because we were having a somewhat arranged discussion. OK, I know I was way out there with the Tiger suggestion, but he didn't even show any desire to pursue a discussion. They know they have a problem, or problems. But, from the changes I've seen over my career of scouting, National tries to fix problems with changes the would benefit future ideas or plans. Not fix a present bad idea. I have never seen them step back from a previous change, they only seem to go forward by adding fixes to past changes. The Tiger program is a good example. I'm guessing that Nationals professionals are limited in the resources and talent to approach identifying the causes of problems and fixing those problems. As an engineer, I know working new ideas is easier than making bad ideas successful. Barry

It's also role modeling issue for me. Locally a high school student was expelled for two weeks because he found a butter knife in his lunch box in the lunch room. Turns out mom put the knife in the lunch box for him to spread the peanut butter on his sandwich. She didn't understand the rule and she didn't tell her son. Our youth learn how to use judgement by watching their role models and they spend most of their day as a youth at school watching adults in action. Where are they going to learn to judge behavior fairly if the adults aren't showing any judgment at all. Barry

Hmm, I disagree. Zero tolerance removes the burden of using judgement or reason to determine guilt. Even ticketed speeders can get their time in court before a judge. Zero tolerance takes out the humility of judgement and the risk of accountability. Barry

Parents who don’t understand the objective of programs are challenging because they don’t take the process seriously. I learned to work straight with parents to color in the vision. Either they relented, or they chose to leave. We never asked a single family to leave, but we gave them choices. I can’t see your troop’s situation improving until the strong adults agree to a program goal or vision. Either a family program, or a patrol method program. Until they decide, leaders will be frustrated. Barry

I have been watching National bailing water for over 25 years. I believe they never looked at declining numbers all that seriously because they believed the other program changes they implemented would out perform their program problems. I think they still believe that. Adding girls will save them. Barry

The problem is National has no mechanism for accountability. As far as they are concerned, they might be performing above their goals. Volunteers are dragged along for the ride. Barry

Add to that, a lot of troops (more than 50% in our district) use summer camp and MB Colleges for their total advancement. They want all new Scouts to leave as close to first class as they can. Barry

You’re missing the point CP, a warning of the danger would have been a reasonable explanation, National chose to insult and demean their volunteers into submission by basically saying the adults have intentions. I believe the motivation for holding a scout up-side-down is as much hazing as letting scouts camp without adults. Zero. But National chose the low road. Barry

Water guns, laser tag, and little red wagons are symbolic of the larger problem that National is not only out of touch with how scouting develops character, they are becoming more reactionary without common reasoning of the program and program activities. There doesn’t seem to be a pragmatic mind at National. They prohibited the popular Bobcat ceremony in the 90s where adults held the Cubs up-side-down while they pinned the Bobcat Badge to their uniform. Any reasonable adult had little trouble with the guideline because common sense tells us it’s a safety issue. But National restricted based on, “hazing”? Look up hazing and figure that one out. Instead of appealing to the common sense of parents, National was using a condescending trigger word to guilt their volunteers to change. That’s how much they respect their volunteers. The future of the BSA program is being directed (misdirected) by members whose emotions and and personal agendas are not getting balanced with practical reasoning and common sense. Yes, it’s just laser tag and water guns, and little red wagons, but in the big picture of the whole program, the reactionary justification behind those benign guidelines are leeching into all the decisions being pushed on the volunteers in the trenches. Sadley, the so called professionals at National can do what they want because there is no avenue in the system to hold them accountable? Barry

Thanks Richard Interesting. Nothing in your post changes what I've been trying to say. The Laser Tag restriction at best is a bit patronizing, over controlling, and over protective. Scouting is a safe place to practice how to differentiate between harm and fun. I believe today's helicopter parenting (and helicopter mentoring in scouting) adults are a result of not giving youth practice in these kinds of activities. Barry

What made the laser tag restriction a really big deal was that Laser tag was a very popular scout activity when the rule came out in the mid 90s. The Laser tag game centers were big rooms with large objects placed around so that players could hide and strategize their attacks on the opposing players. Pretty much a Capture the Flag in a building, only more intense and faster because the room limited where players could hide. As a patrol method Scoutmaster, I really liked it because it forced patrols to come together quickly to win. It was a fast way to bond patrols. And it was such a popular scout activity for scouts of all ages that our Council even found and gave discount tickets to the units. Council didn't even discourage the activity for a couple years even after the restriction. Barry

For me, I feel teaching make-believe shooting as a practice for violence in the future is like zero tolerance policies. Such policies force a negative moral aspect to a neutral or innocent motive. We read stories a lot of violators of a zero tolerance policies with innocent intentions. A person who is never in a situation of thinking of their actions never get to judge the intentions of their actions against any kind of measured consequence. In fact, prohibiting thoughts and actions can actually encourage a person toward the action. I experienced this when I've introduce adults to hunting. They are difficult hunting companions because their desire to hunt has turned into an obsession to kill their prey. There are many aspects to hunting that attract people into the outdoors besides the act of killing, or even using their weapon. Hunting for many is just an excuse to be alone in the outdoors. Adults who were restricted from innocent play of those weapons as youths are more mentally dangerous in my experience. I have always felt that Scouting is a safe place for boys (youth I guess now) to not only learn physical safety of tools, but also mentally learn the balances of their motivations to their desire consequences. A boy learns to play aggressively at his maturity level learns the consequences of the tools being used for play. I have never heard of a serial killer or school shooting where the shooter is mentally normal. Same goes with knives, with the recent trend of knife attacks, is the BSA eventually going to be blamed. Is a knife a tool, or a weapon? Is a squirtgun a toy, or a weapon? If adults call it evil, is it really evil, or just a tool? As for video games, the problem we found with our kids growing up is that too much play can turn into obsession. A video game is just a video game if played for entertainment. Entertainment turns into obsession is where harm starts to come into play. A squirt gun is just method of getting wet. Anything more is just helicopter parenting. Barry

Thorolos are good too. Expensive, but good for scouting socks. Be sure to push the sock tops down to the boot to keep the dust out. Barry

coolmax or Smartwool socks with liners and hiking boots. Much more comfortable than running shoes and cotton socks. Barry

Oh, well, um, not me. OK, there was that one guy, but he isn't around anymore. The rumor about the other guy isn't true.

Oh no, ya'll are great. It's Mrs. Barry, she is a great balance for my minimal energy style, but that doesn't mean she's always a willing participant.

That's an every Saturday night activity for our troop after camp fire. They love it. If we ever camp within a mile of another troop, our SPL challenges them. Barry

Yes, call it what you want, these things go under the header of political correctness. To me, fearing the scouts will develop an unhealthy habit of pulling triggers from a squirt gun is at the very least, "silly". Our scouts play a lot of games, but they always end the campout with a game of Capture the Flag. That game is everything boy. So, does adding a laser tag gun change a boys perception of guns or violence? If anything, laser tag develops fairness of competition with a better respect for how to accomplish the game from other means. When I was a scout, we used flour wrapped up in toilet paper as the means of tag. My wife will tell that I won't step within 10 feet of a bag of flour in a kitchen. There have been times I was frustrated enough to throw some flour, but the risk of being pulled in to help fix a salad has kept me balanced. Barry

First, you kind of suggest that this is the first time that we are speaking what we "think". Really? Second, I shouldn't have used the words "silly guidelines". I meant ""ridiculous guidelines"". I can see risk management for rappelling and climbing, but ""laser tag"" and ""water guns""? Barry

Calico, it's a well rumored theory that the women at National lock the conference room entrances and kitchen back door as they discuss these things. Pay more attention, will ya. Barry

Yep, I agree. God bless the moms.

I think they are doing it to accommodate female troop leaders in scouting. There is all kinds of evidence that they have had some influence on the program. I personally feel some of the silly guidelines in the Guide To Safe Scouting are a female influence. Barry

Ask your DE about other units. They may know of adults who run a safe program. I know personally the DE helped bullied scouts in our district by advising parents of more accepting programs. Two of those very awkward scouts are now Eagles. Barry

Not a chance. Great idea, but you are talking about the group that doesn't allow little red wagons, water guns and lazar gun games. I guess there could be some discussion for the lazar guns, but that is still too much on the helicopter parenting side and should be left up to units. Barry

Good article, of course as you pointed out, we are the choir. Still, I didn't see a little red wagon, so there is still some risk management to prevent permanent injury. This reminded me of a article I read yesterday, apparently some famous movie star posted a video of their family swimming and her husband throwing their young son out of the water into a flip before he landed back in the water. Just the day before my son was telling his 2 year old daughter about how grandpa threw him in the air and flipped him and her aunts and uncles in the pool when they were around her age. She isn't too far from it herself, maybe this summer (me or her dad? I hope, I hope...). But, the point of the article was the number of parents (moms) who posted (or Tweeted?) that they were bad parents. Thanks RememberSchiff. Barry