Eagledad

>>The SPL is looking at splitting the Troop into 2 patrols

What is the question? A few random thoughts; --I know the SM Handbook says the SM sets up BORs, but I never did, our Scouts set up their BORs when they felt the need. My way of doing SM conferences was summarizing my thoughts at the end of where I felt the scout stood at the moment. Then I allowed him to choose if he was ready for the BOR. Not by the book, I know, but I saw so many boys make man size decisions at the point. --The head of the BOR and I generally talked before and after the reviews so that we all had an understanding of our thinking. I (the SM) tried to always end those conversations with, "got any advice for me?". I think the present BOR process is stupid. But it will work if the players involved want to make it work. --The BOR and I once totally disagreed on the performance of a scout. It hurts me to this day because looking back on it, we were both right. We just saw the scout from two different perspectives. The wonderful members of the BOR saw the overall performance of the scout, I saw his growth from day to day. I'm not sure how I could have made that better, but the scout suffered from it. --I think the SM is responsible for setting expectations and accountability of performance of each scout, but I did as much of that through the PLC as their maturity allowed so that they developed those skills as well. Accountability is not as easy as we make it sound, yet we expect adults to be good at it from the beginning. I know better, that is why I wanted our sons to experience some of it early in their life. --The SM is not suppose to sit in on a BOR. I did every once-in-a-while because they need accountability as well. In general you have the same SM for a long period of time who can change to improve performance. But it is not unusual to have many adults sit in on BORs. Like anything else, being good at something requires practice. The BOR needs critique just like everyone else. --I think advancing a scout to the next step in his scouting career, whatever that is, requires a team effort. If anyone along the way doesn't feel that way, there will be problems. I think a constant review of the team's vision and the goals of reaching that vision need to be constantly reviewed so the team understands its mission. Good discussion. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

>> I'd hazard a guess that if the SM had a little more communication with the Life Scout, he wouldn't be surprised that the project was already completed.

>>Adults have to set clear expectations for behavior and then they have to be consistent about enforcing them. Senior scouts and those in leadership need to "buy in" to those expectations, and sure, have a hand in shaping them to some extent. Adults need to help senior scouts learn how to convey those expectations to the rest of the group too, instead of leaving them on their own and hoping they "get it," but then expressing dismay when some of them inevitably do not.

Hi All Once during summer camp a few years ago, four of our new scouts were so excited about their adventure that they were keeping the rest of the camp awake. The SPL tried several times to quiet them down, but they were anxious for what they saw coming in the next few days and couldnt hold back the tone. Looking for a way to let the camp sleep without throwing water on the scouts excitement, I ask the scout to join me on a midnight hike in the middle of the beautiful Colorado evening. The camp is rather large, which gave us plenty of time to stop and look at the stars, trees and mountain shadows drawn by the moon light. While we had a few nice discussions along the way, the hike also gave everyone some quiet time that I was hoping would create a little thirst for sleep. Eventually the appropriate spot came to where I could stop and ask with a smile This is becoming a long night for a few of us, what parts of the Scout Law and Scout Oath did we mess up on this evening. It appears there is a whole lot of messing up of the Scout Law and Oath going on here and wisdom is needed. Maybe these scouts need a change of environment that will give them some quiet time to allow the wisdom to seep into the cracks. It is time for the SM to step in. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

>>Now, yeh need to make a similar "be comfortable" or "have experience" list for parents. Beavah

Ask the SM what his goals are for you son in the next year, and five years from now. See if that gives you a better picture of the adults vision, or if they even have a vision. As for the parents, explain the troops just as you did to us and let them ask the questions so you can educate to good and bad points. Both sound like pretty good programs to me. Barry

>>Did you have boys who went to other troops, despite this experience? Just curious.

>>* A big chunk of attrition is due to middle school competitive sports programs. Those are a financial and "required participation" commitment, scouting is not. Unless dad was a scout and valued the program, the middle school sports kids leave. Part of dat is yeh still have to participate in scouts to feel "part of the team" and not fall behind your peers. * Another chunk is "parent exhaustion." Most of these just don't cross over. They've been burned out by all the parent stuff in cub scouting, and are relieved that "it's finally over." * Another chunk is "camping shock" on the part of the kids. Anarchist describes it to a "T". A boy who has been doin' nothing but parlor cubbing and one "fairest of fair weather" camp is stunned by camping in a troop. It's wet, smelly, cold, I have to work, etc. Personally, I think a lot of cub programs lose the adventurous lads before they ever make it to Boy Scouting. * Yet another big chunk is poor parent education/communication by the troop. It's just "too big a leap" for the parents who believe scouting is an "organized activity." * Some boys drop for academic reasons. Middle school can be a tough transition that way. * A final one is boys who are isolated - who don't have friends from the get-go in the troop.

Well I understand how you feel. We make a joke of it, but in reality their pain really does hurt us as much as it does them. Just wait until the move out, it only seems to hurt more. Anyways, looking at it from my computer in Oklahoma, you may have taken action too quickly and let emotions dominate the discussion. Do to lack of details, I'm not sure who should lead in resolving the problem, but the two parents probably are the least likely because they have the most emotion invested. Instead I would suggest you call the SM who will be more diplomatic in his approach to find out what is going on. I also agree that I would ask your son to talk with the SPL and/or the SM to seek guidance. I'm sure you are already thinking this way, but as a scout he needs to learn how to start dealing with these things first before he goes to dad for additional help and guidance. As a SM, I certainly would like to talk with the Eagle about this. Once our Scouts start working on their Star, they are told that their behavior is held to a much higher standard because they are the role models and to just expect many conferences because of that. Barry

>>but if you have district or even council events, it's still probably giving an unfair advantage.

Hi All Announce that do to some folks confused about rules, the pack will purchase nickel plated axles for every scout. Great time for a Cub Master minute. Barry

HI lisabob. I have a pretty good handle on the subject, but Im not sure what youre asking. I believe must of the problem of first year scouts quitting in the first year is more of a troop problem. Oh there are a few things a Webelos leader can do (or not do) to help a boy stay in a troop longer, but the burden is really on the Troop. On the other hand, are you looking for ideas to help Webelos leaders just get their boys into the Troop program? Then there is the different but related problem Im sure you are seeing at a district level of boys who are in Webelos, but not enjoying it because it is a poor program. Most of those guys are not going into the Troops. We can approach each part of the problem, or are you really thinking more specifically of loosing first year scouts? Barry

My only experience with something similar while I was District Membership Chairman was that the unit suffered greatly from the rumors that got out. And other problems arose for the unit because it was evident that morality wasnt big on the list of one of the adults. After watching all that, I would suggest both adults leave the unit to kill the drama and lingering memories as fast as possible. Im betting their recruiting will struggle next year. Barry

Hi All >>Other than just sowing seed and hoping for but not expecting a return should I approach this?

>>The disaster was complete. My fault for not watching out.

Hi All Lots of great answers. OGE gave the style our troop uses. I think it was well said that boy run is a goal more then a technique. We have to understand that we are developing skills and maturity through the experiences of activities in our troops. That means lots and lots of activities are required. If the skills required of the activity are to complicated, scale back the activity and or bring in more experienced guidance. This is the lesson I teach to new units with young scouts.Dont scale back the program for eleven year olds, instead fill in as much experienced counseling as required to keep the program going forward. But dont fill in so much that the scouts don't gain skill from the activity. If a scout is to grow beyond the point where they really struggle, they must learn something that gets them farther the next time. It is a hard difference for adults to learn, but adults need to push the line to find where to step in and step out. Adults must be proactive in observing what the scout can and cannot do and figure out a way to get the scout past the cannot do. Planning is an extremely difficult leadership skill to learn and even many adults arent good at it. Keep hammering at it and develop several small routines that simplify the process for scouts. I find communication alone can hurt planning because scouts dont know how to talk on the phone. Oh, they can talk to friends in a language that resembles babble, but Hello, my name is Bobby and Im with Troop 22. We are looking to do"" is not a skill we teach anymore. We learned to teach phone etiquette in our first JLT. But, you see what Im talking about. Planning is mountainous size task that requires some basic skills for what is really an adult age activity. Develop planning into several small task so that the scout can see himself mastering the small task and eventually surprised that he completed the big task. Small steps. As for the whole suffering from the few, so long as the whole are also learning from the performance of the few, you are doing OK. It is when the few havent a clue and cant see why the program is stumbling that gets everyone frustrated. And then make sure that the scouts are seeking changes to improve performance. Nothing like being stuck in the mud and nothing changes. Get the scouts to review their performance and to come up with a few quick ideas to improve performance. I had my PLC spend five minutes evaluating every meeting and campout and come up with a few ideas before they went home. Every one. So long as they develop the habit of trying to improve performance, your program will always move. And it is a good personal habit to develop as well. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

>>If he does not answer "becoming an Eagle Scout" don't be offended.

Hi All I guess I'm disappointed in the subject. It to me is about same as discussing how many of our kids will be president. Life is not about getting our kids to be president and scouting is not about getting scouts to Eagle. That our discussions have got to this place is a concern because it implies that it really is all about reaching the gaol and not about the experience. No wonder so many adults ask how to make the program more fun. What they seem to really want is ideas to keeps boys interest until they reach eagle. We don't have discussions about the honor of first class or patrol leader. Not much is said of JASMs or honor patrols. We talk about Eagles. We have a troop over here that averages about 140 scouts. They have the most Eagles in the District, but the one statistic that really sticks in the craw of the SM is that 80% of the scouts they loose are between the ages 14 and 15. Oh, did I mention that he makes sure every scout gets their Eagle by age 14. Yes, I know every district has a troop like that. But would you consider that troop a success or failure. Don't you wonder what they talk about after the scouts make eagle. After all their program stinks beyond that. Not all that long ago the first class rank was considered the highest marketable achievement a scout should at least reach because that rank meant you had the skills to survive in the woods by yourself. That also meant real world as well. Advancement beyond that was considered a personal ambition, which made the Eagle all that more special. But, in that program skills were the primary goals because skills were considered what set scouts apart from all the other boys. When somebody needed first-aid and one you could choose between the boy scout and his none scout friend, who would you pick? Hey, did you know that the Army looked for boy scouts to storm the beaches on D-Day because they had first-aid and leadership skills. And remember the old stereotypical Boy Scout helping the little old lady across the street. That was showing skills in character. No one ever asked the rank of that scout. It would have been unusual for a patrol leader to be of lower rank then first class because it was his job to bring the patrol safely out of the woods. Of course back then most Patrol leaders were of the age driving. They were truly experienced scouts. Now we talk about the eagle in about the same manner except we really don't seem to talk about the skills to reach Eagle, we talk about those who get it and those who don't. I wonder how many scouts today get their eagle before their drivers license. My mind wonders now and then. I am not trying to take away the honor of the Eagle. I expressing how we spend more time talking about Eagle instead of the quality of skills of a boy scout. If we don't really give honor to the scout until he makes Eagle, then aren't we ourselves discounting the program for all boys? I know we keep saying it is OK to not be an Eagle, but isn't that tone even a little condescending? When I was SM, we had a saying: Even if a boy only visits our troop once in his life, we want him to leave with something that will make his life better. Our goal was for every little thing a scout did in our troop to have value toward his life. Really I guess I'm old school. I came from a troop of over 80 scouts in Oklahoma City. It was the the second largest troop in that area at the time. While I was there, we had two Eagle Scouts and we honored them and the ground the stood on because back then, that was a mighty task. We didn't have all the MB classes or counselor list like they do today. Adults didn't look at your book and remind how much time you have left and how many badges you have to go. You had to seek out a counselor yourself and you had to make the calls and set up the appointments. Typically back then you didn't know the counselor and they weren't scouters or even the parents of scouts. They were experts in field of your MB. You really had to want to be and Eagle to get the eagle. Today we think of Eagles as good leaders because the requirments force boys to have time in leadership positions. Back then leadership was a given because scouts who earned Eagle were by nature ambitious and leaders anyway. It would have been unusual for an Eagle not to have been and SPL at some time in their scouting career. We didn't have respect for Eagles because they were good leaders. We had respect because they personally endured the time it took and persevered through all the requirements for the honor. They were truly elite. But, we didn't talk that much about Eagles. They were doing their own thing. We talked about the Arrowmen. I was talking to a dad of two scouts in our troop who is an Eagle himself. As several of us complemented him for his acheivment, he looked at us and said, "yes thanks, But I was never voted into the OA". I knew what he meant. Scouts of the OA were considered Scouting's special forces back then and here is why. Troops were only allowed to vote two scouts a year to be inducted to the Order of the Arrow. They were supposed to be your two best scouts. They had to be good leaders and good back then meant respected leaders, not just time in position. They had to have good scout skills because they had to pass several test before they were accepted. These were test of scout skills and survival, skills of character, self-disapline and servanthood. The test were tough and intended to sort out those who were just good, against those who were the best. The test were secret only to the OA, but there were rumors that made arrowmen smile as you asked them to break their oath. You could fail back then and many did. So we looked for our best skilled scouts. Every scout wanted to be an Arrowmen because that was your own troop voting you as the best. Being an Arrowmen meant that you had learned your skills well and you had earned the respect of being a good leader. You had to be at least 14 to be nominated back then, but in our troop, you likely were at least 16. When I got back involved with scouting as an adult, I eventually found myself involved many parts of the scouting program like District, Council, JLTC, and most levels of training. But I stayed away from the OA program because to me it is a huge disappointment to what the program once was and the honor it once held. I didn't criticize it or put it down, I just didn't get involved. I of course honored my scouts who were voted in because they deserve that from me today. But to know an Arrowmen of the old days is like knowing someone who climbed Mt. Everest. OK, I'm sorry this is long and I know this is my problem because times have changed. I'm not whining about how Boy Scouts is becoming girls scouts because I good scoutmaster can still bring the best out of boys. I'm expressing that we seem so lost about what it takes to be a scout anymore that we dissect the Eagle until it has become the true diffinition of a mature scout. Even though we say it isn't, between the lines we are saying the Eagle is the goal, the true scout in all the programs glory. And even when we do talk about the 5%, most adults really think 95%. First Class is just one of those little ranks along the way and we hope the scout learned his skills, but we mostly just assume. Still for me, I will shake the hand of a first class scout because the rank does hold a certain special place in my heart. Sorry about my soap box. Thanks for allowing me to vent. I mean no offense to anyone here, it is just a general irritant from someone that sometimes has a hard time accepting differences of the times. I will make an effort to grow. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

>>The CC has called an emergency committee meeting for this Sunday to discuss how to proceed

>>The thing I think is important about this is that the SM conferences should be utilized to also educate the young lad on what he needs to do to get to Eagle - while recognizing that it has to be his goal.

I like the idea and reasoning behind it Calico. How much shift-of-mind is there outside the troop environment like OA or JLTC? Barry

>>The requirements for both the Scoutmaster's Key and the Scoutmaster's Award of Merit include rank advancement. They also include earning the Quality Unit Award, which includes rank advancement. We are setting up the leaders to consider advancement.

Hi All The only wisdom I gave about the sign was to our PLC. I told them group respect is a team accomplishment. When one member of the PLC puts their sign up, the rest of the PLC follows in support of the team and encourages those around them as well. I also agree with Beavah that consequences of performance change behavior. Our PLC improved a lot things (including starting on time) when the meetings were running long and all the complaints were sent to the SPL. Most of the complaints came from the parents tired of waiting outside in their car. In our troop, the adult never puts his sign up first. When they need the attention the group, the adult ask the senior scout in the group to get the attention. That may seem like a simple thing, but the boys sure like the respect that is implied by the act. Barry

Hi Lisabob Everyone has given good information. My perspective from the District point of view is training can help you get the middle of the road you are thinking about. Of course there are the obvious differences between packs and troops. The big one being that an adult can completely change the mood, direction and dynamics of a pack without really affecting the dens because the den programs are basically mini programs that run independent of the pack leadership. Troops are called boy run, but just about all parts of the troop program are intertwined together, so you cant just change a few adults without it affecting most everything else. On with the training. In writing this, I started giving examples and the reply was getting long. So instead I will attempt to make the point without examples. A good way of getting more consistent performance from different units is train them all with the same information. In this case, you need to first get everyone trained to your districts expectations of unit performance. So go the extra distance to train each unit and make sure the training materials include things like Each adult leader should recruit an assistant just incase the leader has to leave the position. The training can be difficult because you will find that some units will refuse, so you need to go to the unit to do the training. But, the important part here is teaching the idea, encouraging it from time to time and even rewarding the unit for it. You might come up with a District Quality Unit award with a really cool patch where one of the requirements is 80% of leaders have an assistant. Sound hard? Well it may be a bit laborious to introduce, but I think you will find that most adults kind of except it if done with the goodness of there unit in mind. I rarely had units not want to improve their program. Other things you can add that helped us are "Recruiting Training". Around August and September, I spent a lot of time teaching adults how to recruit, so I created a district course four weeks before school started to help packs feel more comfortable about recruiting. While the leaders liked learning how to get more boys, I was surprised to find they were very interested in how to recruit more adults. Also while I had the captive audience, I also spent some time giving the adults ideas of how to plan better yearly agendas and how to provide a simpler but more fun program and how to make the program easier for the adults. We read a lot of these ideas here on Scouter.com, but in reality, very few adults read scouting forums. This is mostly on the cubs side of course, but Im sure you could make it work for troops. See I find that not that many units really have a big picture of their program. They are just going from one month to the next, especially packs. when you give ideas that simplify their lives, they take everything you offer and ask for more. Our district improved our cub recruiting 20% after that training and we got far fewer calls about adult recruiting. Im just thinking off the top of my head of past experiences where we wanted to change units habits and I could go on and on, but does the idea of training adults to more middle of the road habits make sense to you? Barry