Eagledad

Yes, I think saying a troop that does MBs during a troop meeting means the troop is adult run is overstating without knowing the troop program. While MB activities during a troop meeting might be typical or indicative of a adult run troop, it doesn't mean it is an adult run troop. Our PLC once planned Car Show at one troop meeting where a dozen or so adults brought their hot rods and muscle cars. That was a very cool meeting for the scouts (AND DADS!). And it was under the theme of the Car Engine Maintenance MB. A dozen Webelos joined our troop because they visited on a night our troop was doing some cool activities under the Space Exploration MB. We had a really good SPL at that time and the PLC actually planned three real good meetings under that theme. If the scouts were only focused on advancement and not the MB theme, I might get concerned. I would be real concerned if they only planned MB activities for most of the meeting. But if scouts come up with great programs from MB themes, I'm cheering them on. We also do first aid every year. Barry

>>I have had the reigns for a while now, and I am implementing these ideas one at a time. And my goal is "the easy chair", as Hillcourt put it. I am not sure that round table lectures will instill this.

I had a really good write-up on this that I did about 10 years ago; Ill see if I can find it. But in short, it is very dangerous to cap troops because that reputation can hurt in the long run. It is better to reduce growth by adding requirements for the privilege of being part of the troop. The way our troop tried to control it was through higher yearly fees. Even then we still grew larger than planned, but we had a lot of money to spend. The goal however is not to develop a reputation of being a special troop or a snobbish troop. I have seen several Troops in our district live and die by that sword. Another risk of capping I saw that bit a couple troops in our district was limiting new scouts to almost not allowing any. These troops found that when the groups got to the leadership age, they didnt have enough scouts to run the troop and struggled in keeping a fun program going. The SM of one such troop saw the writing on the wall and retired quickly. His troop went from 70 to 20 scouts in two years from the sudden loss of older scouts to younger scouts who didnt know what to do. I am also not a believer of splitting troops. I did extensive research in this area trying to learn the best way to approach it and found that it fails nine out of ten times and the troop with the original SM still grew large. When our troop had 95 scouts on the roster, we typically had about 60 active. The reason for us was that our troop was friendly toward scouts in sports and band, so depending on the season, we averaged 60 active scouts except in January and Summer camp when we were back to 90. I guess I understand trying to keep the roster clean of deadbeats, only because my wife was the treasure and didnt enjoy maintaining their account, but PLC will give the best indication of when the program is too big. They simply wont be able to keep up. In reality, the troop will size itself to the SM. My observation is that it really doesnt matter how small or big the troop wants to be, the program will size itself to the SMs style of leadership. Good Scoutmasters tend to be very desirable. So one solution is kick out that Scoutmaster and find one that isnt so good at the job. Barry

>>I have always said I would split the troop if we got that large, but with good support and experienced leaders from this our troop's "Golden Age" returning to our committee, I am slowly warming to the idea of a larger group. There are plenty of strong troops in our immediate area, it is unlikely we can grow that big...

>>This will be great for round table -- thanks for sharing!

I think you have written a very good guide and I don't want to take away from that, but I think its too long, and here is why I say that: When I was the District Boy Scout trainer, I used to poll adults all the time to find out what materials they were using and I found that less than 40% of the scoutmaster even read their SMH. I think it was actually far less than that. And I found that the ASMs were half of that. The thing is that most adults think they already know most of what is being presented or written, so they may glance of gaze through it, but they aren't going to give the time for reading the whole thing. Lets face it, the Scoutmasters Handbook is one of the best sleeping pills a person can take. I used to ask my participants to ust read the Patrol Leaders Handbook and SPL Handbook because those are fairly short easy reads and they pretty much give most of what the scoutmasters need from the SM Handbook. I'm not trying to say you did it wrong or its not good stuff, it certainly is. But if you want it to make an impact, start cutting it down to the bare bones. Turn it into a reference guide or proceedures guide to improving patrol method in a troop. Kind of check list of what the troop should be doing to go in that direction. I hope that helps, I really like what you wrote and hate to even comment, but I'm kind of excited with what you have done here and would like to see it spread out beyound your District. Barry

Is this for a troop staff or District training staff? Barry

Baden Powell suggested scouts find God in the outdoor environment. I used to give a (sermon?) at Wood Badge called the Wow god. The point was we needed to provide the kind of experience where when a scout experiences something new in nature, they would react with Wow. There are somethings that just can't be explained in words, so a Baden suggest, we let nature do it for us. I actually saw this a couple times, one was after we reach the top of Mount Phillips. The view from Mount Phillips will catch your breath, especially if there is snow up there as well. The other experience was at summer camp as the troop was walking back from the mess hall in the late afternoon. The trees full of cicadas, or locust, suddenly started singing very loudly. It was a wow moment for everyone and it was magical. I think they will carry the moment with them forever. While we may try our best to talk about spirituality and god in scouting, I think the wow moments speak the best. Boys learn 90% of their behavior by watching others. We just need to act more than we talk. Barry

Well Im pretty excited to watch your program. I think your scouts are going to have a great time. A few thoughts: The largest group of new scouts we lost had camped every month as Webelos. They knew their Boy Scouts stuff better than our 2nd year scouts and just got bored. Most Troops are prepared to deal with new scouts who have very little if any outdoor experience. Yes, we would like them to have some camping experience, but they certainly dont need to be expert boy scouts. After doing it a few years, I found that three campouts a year was plenty for our Webs: We did one overnighter at the beginning and end of the school year, and summer camp. The Overnight campouts were our Pack campfire Pack meetings that ended with roasting marshmallows and making smores. Any family could campout if they wanted, but it was an official campout for the Webelos. I took my Webelos outdoors at least once a month and they loved it. Depending on the activity badges we were working on that month dictated where we went. We went to a local high school track for the athletic badges, rode bicycles downtown for I think Readyman and went to both the lake and local parks for other activities. Even did a couple service projects at the parks. Boys love the outdoors and it makes the meetings easier. Every den leader has their limits, but I had 16 in my last group and liked it very much. I had two parents each plan and run an activity badge at every meeting. So we had lots to keep us busy, but since the parents did the planning of the activity badges, I didnt get burned out as a den leader. I was also an ASM at the time. My Webelos ran every Pack opening and closing ceremony with one of the other dens, a different den each time. We had a routine where the den would come in an hour before the pack meeting so the Webelos could train them on how to carry the flag. The Webelos would do the commands. The Webelos also help the Cubmaster set up the meeting hall for the pack meeting during that hour. They performed two skits at each pack meeting that they chose and practiced. I did all this to get them the experience of standing and performing in front of groups, and also set themselves to serve as the trainers for the rest of the pack. In retrospect, these are small task, but they are huge confidence builders for joining the Troop next year, and they projected a maturity that the younger cubs could look forward. From my experience as a Scoutmaster, I wanted new scouts who werent afraid of the new program and doing things like I mentioned gave them that courage if not cockiness to jump into a boy run program. We are used to teaching scouts how to camp and do scout skills, that is easy. What is hard to easing them into the sudden change of an adult program run by parents into a program that requires self discpline and is run by boys. I dont need to wish you luck Scoutfish because you already have the passion to make your program a success, I just request that you let us know how it goes because its fun reading these kinds of post. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

Its a trick question Sherm, Scouters aren't atheist. Barry

>>I simply state that to be "reverent" one need to revere. Now, what does it mean to "revere." For some, yes to worship a higher being (i.e. God), but for others, one could revere a mentor, a parent, etc. So, an atheist could easily satisfy that requirement.

>>Some of his comments are thought provoking, but getting into an exchange with him is exasperating. I think I've finally learned to stay out of his discussions.

If you have not been to an Eagle project review board, its worth a visit. I have seen a scout hand the board a one page hand written plan. It actually looked scribbled to me, but I didnt read the details. Now in my world, that doesnt disqualify the scout, in fact that might have been more the norm before the computer. We train our scouts to write a plan that typically requires several pages with pictures. So I would have to really interview the scout to make sure that he knew what he was getting in to. Im not sure if this fence project would pass in our District until I saw his plan in person. As someone said, removing and building a new fence is not normal maintenance. It is common for project however, we had a couple fence building projects in our troop. The question to me is: Does the board really have the authority to turn a plan down if they feel the scout is at risk of failing even though the plan meets all the requirements given by the BSA? In my mind they do not. But I do understand the temptation to protect the Scout, his troop and the District the embarrassment of failing to complete the project even though completion is not a requirement for Eagle. So this is a tough one to call without seeing the plan. Barry

>>In today's scouting, how do you handle the Buddy System with a group of scouts at night? With 18 scouts, we will be in a fairly "confined" area of a few acres around the old campsites of our primitive campsite.

Since the old fence has to be removed, it looks to me like a pretty big project. One of the trends I've seen in the past is Districts or Councils protecting their reputation of completing Eagle projects. Believe or not there is no requirement that the project must be completed to be considered successful by the EBOR. I seem to remember a district somewhere in Kansas that had a few ambitious uncompleted projects in a short period of time. One of these projects left an eye sore in the community, which led to an investigation by the local paper followed with an embarrassing article for the local Boy Scouts. If the committee simply felt the scout was taking on too large of a project, they might not approve it simply for that reason. Something like this happened a few years back in our troop, so the way the scouts handled it was they spread the task over two Eagle Projects. We counseled the scouts to design and write each project so that if one failed, the other wasnt affected and they got the projects approved. Barry

>>The overwhelming majority of unit leaders have probably never even heard of, or read in full, or thought about, the DRP. In reality for many units then, it becomes a non-issue.

>>Solutions? Perhaps something to encourage packs to treat Webelos as more of a special program and to encourage specialized Webelos den leaders who stick with that program. If national wanted to make a really bold move, perhaps Webelos could be made a separate unit. Or attached to Boy Scout troops instead of Cub Scout packs.

Im a pretty open and critical of the parts of BSA programs that I don't think work very well with our youth and how they keep scouts in the program. I am not a fan of the Tiger program or the Venture Patrol program. I have been a Webelos leader, District Membership Chairman and a Member of the Council Training committee. My nature (also my job) is analyzing and deveoping solutions to improve those things I analyze. That is what I do. Of the 16 Webelos in my last den, all 16 crossed over into troops and 12 became Eagles. I preface all that to say I believe the Webelos doesnt need any real changes to get more boys to cross over into troops. I think it does a pretty good job for what it is desgined to do. Dens that dont have a good cross over rate where generally not run as the BSA suggest. Ive stated several times before that less than 50% of Webelos cross over into troops, but the major cause for that are Webelos Leaders who dont follow the program. The number one major cause for that is adult leader burnout. There are a lot of things that can be done to help the crossover numbers, but I personally dont think changing the Webelos program is the solution. It works pretty well. Barry

I guess I was looking at Lisas point a little different. I thought she was saying that the Scoutmaster, Cub Master or the master of any of organization are viewed as the got-to-guy (person) simply because of the title. It doesnt matter if it is a boy run, adult run or even run by sheep herders, when folks need to say something urgently, they will likely go to the one person they think is required to listen and act on their need, and that probably isnt fair. I agree it isnt fair, but I think a person in those positions needs to understand it. My story was only emphasizing that point, a mother who was so emotionally upset needed to let someone know and understand the situation as she saw it. She sought out the one person she felt was required to listen and had the authority to make changes. In her emotional state, I dont think she put much thought to it at all, in her mind at the time she needed to find the one person to resolve her pain. Im convinced that she had no plan to let me have it like she did because she waited until all the other parents had left, but when she approached me, but her emotions got the best of her. As for conflict management, I was trained in my conflict management course that there are times when emotions require the best action to be no action until the parties involved can have a calm discussion. That is what we purposely did. There was no conflict because there was no reaction to the emotion. Barry

>>But, as unfair as this sometimes is, isn't that kind of the nature of the position? The "buck" has to stop somewhere in the program when it comes to making tough decisions and acting on them.

>>As to governments requirin' purchase of a product, seems like that's what my state (and many others) do with auto insurance, eh?

>>Afterward, however, I had second thoughts, and decided I would not do that again, as in my opinion, it clearly violated the intent of the "no alcohol" policy in the G2SS.

HI Scoutfish Let me preference this response by saying that a student of the bible doesnt have to be a Christian, Jew or even religious. That being said, Ive not heard very many students of the bible make the claims you make, which suggest to me that you are not a student of the bible, just making some points you base from what youve heard. The bible claims that God is all knowing, all present and powerful. As a Christian, how can you conclude that God couldnt guide men to write His words as He wants us to read them? Ive not heard by, students of the bible, that the bible is full of contractions. In fact, one of the many powers of the bible is its consistency between the old and New Testament. And finding new meaning from past reading isnt contradiction, its called maturity and wisdom. You see it in the scouts as they grow using the Scout Law. I have not asked others to follow my beliefs in this discussion; Ive only stated what those beliefs are. If you and other folks feel intimidated by those beliefs, I can only conclude its from ignorance of your emotions. I can easily reference my belief to a source that is as close as their computer. Its much harder to do that with emotion. Its just like I was trying to say with Lisa, a person who obeys all traffic laws only has to point to the law to justify their behavior. A person who breaks the law because they think it is OK can only point to their emotional logic to justify their action. If it feels good do it, right. As a Christian, Jew or Muslim, you can condemn homosexuality because the bible condemns it, so dont be afraid of that. But I understand what you are attempting to say: God says we are not to judge each other. But God never says we are not judge in either the Old or New Testament. The only thing God says we cant judge is our eternal salvation. Only He gets that privilege. Your examples are being used out of context. Eye for an eye, plank in your eye, cast the first stone and many others are lessons to judging justly and fairly. They arent saying not to judge at all. And lets think about this judgment thing from a practical standpoint for a moment, shall we. It is literally impossible to not judge ones behavior. I would guess that average person makes at least one moral judgment every hour of the day. If nobody judge, we would live in chaos and anarchy. In fact, the difference between man and animals is the personality we develop from guided judgment. Without moral judgment, we would only react by our animal instinct. Judgement is required for a civil society. So the best you could really say is you dont base your judgment from God, but instead from your emotion or instinct of that moment. Your example of casting the First Stone is a popular example by many trying to shut down an intellectual discussion of moral judgment, but you and those others always seem to leave the part where Jesus followed by saying Go and Sin no more. It seems there has to be a sin to forgive to start reconciliation. So it is interesting to me that you keep claiming you are a Christian yet, you disregard those things that guide us to be a Christian. My confidence in my faith as a Christian seems to challenge you enough that you don't want to be associated with my faith and yet, I am only a Christian. I am not questioning your faith of lack of it, but at some point your emotional justification is going to lead down a path of confusion or personal confrontation. Its no big deal to spend a little time in the word to find out just what it means to be a Christian. A little more time reading might lead you to a better understanding of being Christian or if the that is really the faith you want to follow. So bringing this back to the homosexual discussion, I am curious of you and Lisa and others to which I want ask: if from some strange event in your personal life you came to believe homosexuality is morally wrong, just how do you think it would change your behavior right now. What is it about that possibility that scares you so much? And dont use the judgment thing because your judging me harder than I am of gays. Barry

Since the alcohol is burned off in the cooking, I don't see it different from any other spice and would treat it that way if asked. Barry

>>So Barry, if I understand your arguments, they are essentially that 1) There is a written rule (in the bible) and people ought to follow this written rule, and