Eagledad

Only two meetings a month worked very well for us. Just as you pointed out earlier, these parents are very busy and are actually relieved to not be so obligated. We invited the Tigers to fun pack activities so they were introduced to the pack as a whole, but we didn't invite them to typical Pack meetings until April so that they started getting used to next years routine. I usually had the next years leaders picked out and trained, so they started acting the position to get a feel for it. You got it right in looking at these early programs in the big picture of whole program, but don't let your fear of low recruiting drive your pack plan. You may not realize it yet, but in the Cub years, you are not recruiting the boys, you are recruiting the parents. That means the program MUST appeal to the parents schedule and lifestyle for them to give you their son. That is why requiring one meeting and one go-and-seek works so well for the five and six year olds. Our pack was one of two packs that split. The other pack followed the meeting every week and Pack meeting every month plan. They typically lost 60 % of their tigers by the end of the year. We retained 95 % of ours. And, we did not require anything from Tiger parents during their Tiger year. Burnout is a real problem, so delay adult responsibilities as long as possible. I am on record saying that I think the Tiger program run the way it is now is the Number ONE cause of families quiting the scouting program through the ages of 11 years old because it burns out the adults. Barry

Running the Tigers how you say the Lions are designed to be run are the suggestions I give National for the Tiger program back in 1998. Our Tiger program was very successful after we changed to those methods. But I still think both the Lions and Tigers need to be run that way, not just Lions. Tigers are no more mature than Lions. I have to smile a little at your comment of Lazy/misinformed Lion Cub Scout Leaders and Parents because those same adults were the cause of the Tiger program program as well. I guess they are a very loud group, but totally misinformed. I'm with you guys in spirit because I spent A LOT time trying to improves these programs. Dealing with National on the Tiger program was like paddling up Niagara Falls. Barry Barry

LOL Barry

All true stosh, but most people truly want to believe in God. The problem is that as badly as they want to get closer to God, they are afraid to read the Bible because they might find that God does not approve of some things they like in their lives (my wife questions my Harley all the time). I have deep compassion for these folks because they have put themselves in a tough spot. Ironically God, through the Bible, shows them how to deal with all that. But that first step is so hard. Barry

There are two types of people who use the bible for gain, those that want to serve the masses, and those that want to serve themselves. I have found that those who serve themselves only use the parts of the bible that suits their purpose. The Google search engine makes it very easy to pick and choose only those scriptures that give an advantage. But the meek only have themselves to blame, reading the bible has become a thing of the past. Predators take advantage of their ignorance and serve their will on them through their emotions because they don't have enough knowledge to resist with reason. Barry

In some classes I took in college, I learned that the average volunteer in volunteer run organizations give less than two years. Two years! And the BSA wants how many from us. I can't understand where National thinks this idea will work. I know that I was complaining about the Tiger program to them before the added more volunteers and more time requirements to that age group in 2000. I was the District Membership Chairman at the time and our pack leaders were really angry. I calculated that it took as man hours to manage the Tiger group as all the other age groups combined. Barry

What I will admit is that we only have to read the Bible to know when we are doing it wrong. Barry

Wow Fred, if we could go back into the archives, you would find several of my post that are almost word for word identical to yours. Only difference is that I was talking only of the Tigers because we didn't have Lions. I even predicted the loss of Troop age scouts (which came true) as a result of you guessed it, BURN OUT. What was my proposed solution, to add a kindergarten age and separate the first two years from the Wolves Tigers and Bears like the Girls Scouts do in their program. I hope you feel a little vindicated from my response because I feel vindicated reading your post. It's not like I didn't warn National about this several times. Many folks thought I just hated the Tigers but they couldn't see results of bringing in boys at such an early maturity. It changes the whole dynamic of the pack and burns out the adults along the way. The other problem that you will see is a greater loss of Webelos as a result of the burned out leaders. I spent more time trying to fix our Webelos leadership than I spent recruiting any other age group. One other thing, you kind of hinted at that recruiting at the first year is critical because you get most of your scouts and volunteers, so there is some concern that if you don't get your scouts at that age, your pack would suffer. But we had a pack that decided to not recruit at the Tiger age for the same reasons we are talking about here. I watched that pack and they did not suffer a numbers drop after five years. So, I conclude that the main problem of loosing scouts at the 5 and 6 year age is the maturity of the scouts. If you can recruit in the 2nd grade like the BSA use to do, that is a solid maturity where you will most likely keep the scouts and not risk as high of burnout with the adults during the Webelos age. I like your idea of splitting the meeting, but of course I suggested years ago, so I would. Give it a try, I would if I were in your shoes. I did a lot of different ideas from the BSA Tiger and WEbelos model to keep our scouts and we retained 95 percent of both age groups. National has this one wrong, so do what you have to do to get it right. Barry

Humans in the loop, ya I think that's fair. Barry

If one is supposed to have faith that God is omniscience and omnipotent and omnipresent, then one can consider that God is in control in what each individual requires for their individual growth. The hard part is making the first step to just do something. While many folks are critical of people using wrong interpretations, I find more often people are giving credit to God for their decisions without ever opening the bible. Things like "God says we are to love everybody, so I choose to.......". I consider ignorance more dangerous than misinterpretation because those people blindly follow their emotions without any balance of objectivity. Barry

I agree, it is risky. But maybe Moosebyterians could become the new hope for us all. Barry

Inspired by God, but yes the point is correct. I see Merylin's point of view, I just don't agree with it, at all. There has to be a leap of faith somewhere, otherwise you are just an atheist. LOL I admit I don't understand your view Moose with the "nuggets of God and & Jesus". If you can't trust all the Bible, how can you trust any of it? It's too easy to just pick those things that make us feel good. And when it really gets down to it, the different written Bible interpretations are pretty close. It's just the laymen interpretations that go out there. I do agree that you can and should interpret the Bible yourself, but you aren't going to get much out of it until you at least hypothetically approach it as God speaking to you personally. Being the skeptic you are, I imagine that you will get far more out of it than many who just accept it as Gods word. Barry

I didn't miss it, I was trying to keep the discussion in the context of why God has to be in the BSA program. Personally, I disagree with you. Barry

Well I am speaking in this discussion from an ideological perspective of integrity on building character. Ignoring the chaos of the actual applications of religion, who do you trust more in setting the definition of morality, God or man? Now some folks might say man for whatever reason, but my point is that the vast majority of people even today believe God to be the ultimate authority on the subject morality. So for any organization to have integrity in the business of developing character, God is their best resource. If poll was taken that asked of an organization that helped youth develop character, what would be the top three answers? What links those three together? The challenge of learning God's true word on the subject morality in this pop culture is a different discussion of which I'm sure many here would enjoy. Barry

In the context of this discussion, that is up to the scout and his families interpretation of God in their religion. In my religion, God wants us to be holy. Barry

God is omniscience, man is not. Barry

Yes, I think you are supporting others in that there does seem to be a need to protect the integrity of the MB process from those with a self-serving ambition. Every summer camp the desires of what parents want for their son comes out in full force. I remember one mother chewing me out during a committee meeting telling me how bad a leader I was for allowing her son to came home the previous year with Zero badge. Her 11 year old son skipped all his classes and had the best time of his life at that camp. The only way I could see this working in a program without the blue cards is creating "more training" to teach the scouts and adults of how the process should work. It also means the counselor would need to take on a lot more responsibility in evaluating whether the scout should be taking the course and deal with the pushy parents. I'm not sure they would be willing to take on those additional responsibilities. Actually I know they wouldn't. Barry

We are remarkably similar because we are decent loving people whose daily actions resemble the scout law. I can only guess why we are mindbogglingly different. I am a big picture sort of person and we tend to be more pragmatic in are thinking. We appear more black and white, but in reality, it's just coloring within the lines. Adults used to be surprised that I could predict the performance of their unit programs. What they couldn't see is that scouting while complex in its managing, is fairly simple in its design. I try to teach adults the simple basics of scouting here on the forum and in my area, but these basics are so simple that folks don't really believe they have that much application. So as a big picture guy in this discussion, I can see how morality and ethics get's corrupted when folks take credit for being the best source of living by the scout law and oath. While that does have the appearance of respect, in reality it opens the door to chaos eventually leading corruption. How can a boy equate living the law when his role models consistently lie, cheat, and steal? I'm thinking hypothetically in the big picture of course. The only way the BSA as a National institution for youth can even propose the idea of encouraging boys into ethical moral decision makers is to put the responsibility of those ideals on a resource that never changes it's virtues of morality. That can only be God. You don't have to be religious to understand the importance of pinning to a source that doesn't change with fickle cultures. So, it is just plain logical to hang the values of the scouting program on God. And you don't have to be a genus to see what happens when God is taken out of the program. Morality (law and oath) becomes defined by the man with the biggest stick. What's left dilutes over time and eventually becomes just meaningless words. A lot of the replies to this discussion are something to the order that if the other is guy acts moral and ethical, that is all the scouts need. True enough I guess in the small picture, but in the bigger picture, our standards of what is acceptable has to be based on perfection so that we always keep raising the bar. We can always do better and here is our target. I know through the years scouting has had to deal with really bad leaders that embarrassed the program. But the program survived without really taking any hits. That is attributed to the reputation that Scouting teaches boys how to be men of character. And if anyone is held to define the attributes of character, they will quickly lead up to God. If Scouting had started out without God to set the high standards, it would not have survived past those bad leaders because there would not have been anything to show folks that the program was better than the self-serving desires of those men. So yes, people can be nice by their nature and set good examples of living the scout oath and law simply by the luck of the draw. But the program only survives because it acknowledges a source of moral perfection that can never be changed even with new leaders year after year. Once the BSA starts giving the credit of good moral behavior to man, the program is over because it will no longer be above scrutiny. Barry

Yes, but the discussion is whether the SM should have to provide a signature in the process. And as a side, the PL isn't given any of this responsibility in the BSA guidelines. Even you said: "MB's are designed as individual advancement opportunities, not as patrol or troop activities.". Barry

Having a bad day are ya stosh? Barry

The mission of the Boy Scouts of America is to prepare young people to make ethical and moral choices over their lifetimes by instilling in them the values of the Scout Oath and Law. Barry

I'm not sure what you are afraid you will start, but the Bible prophecies this several times. The Law and Oath are the BSA's attempt to prevent it. Barry

Yes, but you admitted there was nothing you could really do as the SM. Now in truth, I have had the same experience, so I always advised scouts away from the counselor. But, what if the scout could rate and provide comments on an electronic list. I have little respect MBC (Merit Badge Colleges) because they typically skip much of the MB process and encourage sub par performance on all sides. Many of the bad habits the units had developed for signoffs and proper administering was caused by them following MBC procedures. Barry

I'm a sure you are fine folks, but the problem with mad made morality is that it can change in a flash, and often does depending on the mood of the moment. In the bigger picture, the poor suffer the most in cultures with man made morals because there is no "one" agreed reference to hold their leaders to be fair and just when it is not convenient for the leaders. As I've said before, in a godless society, morality is dictated by the guy with the biggest stick and motivated only by emotion and ambition. The 10 Commandments are basically just saying who has the big stick and protecting the innocent. Barry

You lost me, what is the reason a signature is required to get the scout a list or discuss the scouts experience? The list can be on the internet and the SM does have the tool of a SM conference. I'm just playing devils advocate to force us outside the box. Honestly I'm in a weird place here because I was making the same arguments in the original discussion. Barry