Eagle92

Base,

He actually left a "high speed, low drag" troop because they were not camping enough. I honestly do not know why he procrastinated like he has.

I don't know if it was b/c of some of the Eagles he had seen who were in such units( he's made comments about that).

Don't know if he thought he couldn't live up to the standard set by some of the "old school" leaders ( he made a comment to me about not being ready for Brotherhood when I was surprised that he wasn't Brotherhood already, "Mr. Chapter Ceremonies VC).

Don't know if he was having too much fun doing Scouting, i.e. 2010 jambo, working on camp staff, camping, etc and lost track. (he made the comment he didn't realize he hadn't gotten a few MBs)

And I don't know if it was due to the medical issues he has.

But everyone is rooting for him. And I'm not worried about people giving it to him. I have a feeling Dad and Grandpa will stop that from occuring and encourage him to continue on, but not push, cajole, threaten, etc him into getting Eagle. In fact Dad is extremely proud that did a 180 and wants it now. But he will earn it.

As a former chapter adviser here are my thoughts.

1) As soon as you have a date, LET THEM KNOW ASAP! (emphasis not shouting). I know that in one chapter I was in, we were booked solid in the February-April time frame with ceremonies, OA meetings, Ordeal, and Conclave. In fact there was one time where there was 3 ceremonies on the same day: Two in the day and one at nite. Now I will admit, one of the day ceremonies had a recently turned 21 y.o. Arrowman do a one man Eagle Ceremony while the team did the AOL/Crossovers at the same time.

2) Food is always appreciated . 99.9999999% of the time there is no fee. That .000000001% that I heard, stressing HEARD, about that charged a fee was to make arrows for the AOL and Crossover Ceremonies. If I remember correctly, one pack forgot about the arrows and a chapter was willing to make the arrows for them. The pack essentially bought the supplies to make the arrows.

3) As Base mentioned, I've seen chapters receive a donation, honorarium, whatever you want to call it. I've used it to pay for the gas to get to and from the pack,(they were way out in the boonies, the local chapter didn't do ceremonies, and we spent more time in the car driving than at the ceremony), I've seen the money goes towards camperships, and I've seen the money go towards maintenance at the local scout camp. Oh and I've seen it go towards the chapter getting new regalia and/or drum.

Yep I know the rules and was surprised when I found out what happened. And I admit I cut the guy some slack when it came to camping MB since i and everyone who knows the scout were surprised he didn't have camping already. I made him do the paperwork, but only asked a few questions about his expereince as related to specific activities that I didn't know about, i.e. elevation on a backpacking trip, when he did the climbing repelling, etc. I've seen the kid grow up from Webelos to now, and have served as an MBC for him, Elangomat advisor for his Ordeal, recruited him to teach IOLS to adults, etc. I watched the kid grow up. I tried to talk him into getting both Brotherhood and Eagle. So not only know a lot about him, but also I have very mixed emotions on this matter.

In regards to the service project, believe it or not he was coming up with ideas for it before getting Life. When asking his dad a question, dad's reply was "I'll get you the number for you to call." The adults will not be doing anything except what they are told to do by him. My understanding is that he will be formalizing the project and hopes to execute during the Christmas break.

Base,

Good question. He's involved extracurriculars at school, specifically soccer, and was not able to make the normal meeting nite due to a game. My understanding was that the adults were suppose to meet with him the next nite, but something came up last minute. The adults talked amongst themselves and decided to do it that way.

Troop is interesting becasue the committee is basically the former SM and former ASMs. They go camping with the troop when they can. They know the scouts very well. Reason they are now committee and not active leaders is due to work commitment. While their CO is a church, most of the leaders work at one local company which has been expanding in the past few years. They want to be involved and support the troop, but cannot be more active.

Well here's an interesting update to the situation. Scout in question completed the 2 Eagle required MBs needed for Life in time for him to have a BOR at his 17.5 years old mark, Problem was the adults; they could not meet with him in person in time. Since the have worked with him over the past 3-4 years, have tried to encourage him to go for Eagle, etc etc, they did a BOR in absentia for him. Paperwork was signed off and sent in. He now has exactly 180 days to get Eagle.

As I mentioned a lot of folks have tried to encourage him. FWIW, he did not see himself as an Eagle, yet he is one of the guys I would trust my kids' lives with in the outdoors if things hit the fan. Heck I used him for ITOLS staff b/c he knows his stuff and I thought he had Camping MB. But none of the adults motivated him.

It was one of his buddies from summer camp staff, who got his Eagle recently, and basically said, "Dude, really? You don't want to get your Eagle? You know your $#!T better than most Eagles, and you are not even going to try? What's up with that?" Peer pressure can be a wonderful thing.

Yep I didn't like the color change of the ranks in 1989, and was very glad I got Life prior to that. The weight of the Skill Awards wasn't bad. In my troop, only folks wearing leather belts were adults as the Skill Awards were advancement, and you were expected. stressing expected, to wear them, even in you were an Eagle. Minute you turned 18, most folks wore a leather belt of some kind:

Hate to say it, but in my neck of the woods, LDS units do not recruit as their youth are automatically signed up to the unit.

Yep district and council level folks, except the pros, can go through training for their position and wear the trained patch. Some don't because they know that in a year or so they will be doing another district level position and need new training. It's easier that way. Maybe when I earn the comissioner Arrowhead Award will I wear the trained strip and that is IF i'm a RT commish.

Only pros are not allowed to wear a trained strip. Rationale behind that is that they must constantly undergo training every year. Although they can be eligible for District Committee Key, and have their own professional training knot.

Skill Awards came about with the Improved Scouting Program of the 1970s, aka "Urban Scouting," as it took the " OUTING out of ScOUTING," and was a major fiasco. From 1972 to 1979, it was possible to get Eagle Scout with out camping. William "Green Bar Bill" Hillcourt had to come out of retirement and write your husband's handbook in order to save Scouting.

The concept behind the Skill Awards was that the scout mastered certain set of skills on one topic and received immediate recognition. IMHO, Skill Awards are the only they got right.

As for the book not being useful today, I completely DISAGREE (emphasis not shouting). While the advancement sections may be useless today, the book has more info on traditional Scoutcraft than the current handbook. In fact I had to copy sections of the book to teach IOLS b/c the current book is inadequate to useless on some topics.

Chai,

If varsity will fall under Venturing, will it be co-ed? LDS, which are the ones that created this program and the primary users I have had experience with, will not be happy.

Fred,

In response to your question on why change from the CO after Cub Scouts, people have already mentioned that every troop meets different needs. But sometimes the folks who make great Cub Scout leaders and make an excellent, active pack because they are organized, goal oriented, etc are horrible Boy Scout leaders because they do not allow the boys to make any decisions and constantly have them working on advancement and civic service in stead of having fun.

Now don't get me wrong, I do like advancement. It give the Scouts goals to aim for, and more importantly gives them important life skills. Even the "paper pushing" MB's I really do not like are important. But when every meeting is focused on a MB, that's a problem. When it seems like you are doing service projects every single month, to the point that a camping trip or two are cancelled or part of the service project is a problem. Boys are transferring out or leaving all together because of that.

And don't think a unit commissioner, trainers, etc will help with the situation. Many folks have intervened to give advice, mentor, etc. and we have been ignored or told we don't know what we are talking about. One Eagle Scout point blank told the SM at his SMC how the troop was screwed up and what was needed to be done to fix it, and he was ignored. Only reason he is still sticking around is A) Order of the Arrow, and B) he is a DC with the pack.

Unfortunately it has gotten to the point that I have some reservations sending youth to the troop when doing Round Ups. In fact I ran into 1 youth and his mom whom I recruited for the troop this past May, and they have already quit the troop by mid-August. I wish I would have had the time talk to them to find out why they quit in less than 3 months, or less than 10-11 meetings.

441,

While I am not as familiar with Kodiak and Kodiak X as I probably should be, I can tell you from first hand expereince that there are many, not all but many, who have the attitude that if you don't wear beads,you don't mean squat. Didn't matter that I not only had the same training as WB when I did BA22 but also taught the same material as WB when I staffed JLT. Because I don't have bead and am one of the regular critters, my opinions and recommendations were to be ignored.

And I have seen youth who been through these courses be ignored by some of the adults in their units because the adults knew better, despite the youth having the training.

Further WB has a history dating to 1919 if memory serves and BP, even with the changes over the years and most esp the WB21C. When folks ask what critter you are, they look at ya weird when you say "COCKY CURLEW!"

Caveat: I have not taken WB so this is based upon my experiences, conversations with others, obersvations, and reading. So take it for what it is worth.

When I took the old BA22 course way back when, I was told it is almost identical to WB. In the council I grew up in,the only people who wore campaign ocvers were the WB and BA22 Folks. In fact the campaign cover was given to BA22 graduates along with the patch.

When I staffed JLTC as SPL a few years later, one of my youth staffers registered for WB since he was turning 18 before the course and the PTB were waiving the 2 year tenure requirement, although he did have to get trained. His words to me after WB was, "It was a waste of time. Everything we taught at JLT was covered again and I knew it all already. If you want to go to WB, go when you need a refresher [course]."

When I conducted IOLS, I was trying to organize the course the way BA22, JLT, and the old SM Fundamentals course was organized with a team of folks teaching instead of 1 person doing it all as it has been traditionally done in my district. Comment made by one of the staffers, "This is exactly how WB staff is done."

When NYLT came out, national decided to award 3 beads to adult staffers who went through WB, and 4 beads for Course Directors who met the requirements. Reason, being that the two courses are identical except for the ticket.

And my adult friends on NYLT staff also have made the comment that the two courses are nearly identical.

So my question is this: why wouldn't an 18-20 year old Venturer want to go WB21C? Especially since WB has greater prestige in many people's eyes than NYLT.

This sentence stands out for me.

"He verbally abused a scout in the troop and a camp counselor. He also got physical with one of the boys in the troop which was witnessed by the under 21 adult leader. "

Will both the folks involved talk, especially the physical incident? If memory serves, that is grounds revocation of membership.

Ok long story short, I like the idea of youth teaching as I am old school. So when i did my last IOLS class, I had 2 youth staffers. Both did very well, and would use them again in a heartbeat. In fact I think 1 will be giving a class on camping to our pack's new Cubs and their parents as he will be the TC Den Chief, his cousin will be in the den and the Scout specificallya sked to work with them. And best of all, most of the adults got the concept of "Train them, Trust them, LET THEM LEAD!"

Anyway it's the other one. Great guy, had him on CSDC staff and wrote the recommendation for him to be on summer camp staff. Great guy knows his stuff, and really didn't care about getting Eagle. Until recently. Now he is pumped and ready to rock and roll. Got a call asking to me an MBC for him as the regular MBC the unit uses won't touch him. Dad doesn't want it to look as if he is giving son the MB. Ok find and dandy. Then I find out which one it is: Camping.

Why do I feel like an idiot for assuming the guy who left a troop because it wasn't camping enough,the guy who lives and breathes camping, the guy who served on camp staff would have Camping MB?

Kudu,

Don't get me started! Some of BSA's Rules do not make any sense. A Cub can climb on a climbing wall, but cannot repel. A scout can take Climbing MB, but not do COPE. And I'm not even touching the new rules and regs on service projects based upon Dept. of Labor laws!

Wise man once said, "Train them. Trust Them, LET THEM LEAD!"

I'd wear a uniform, but that's me. I'm also an Eagle so the medal is worn. Not an official website, but http://www.scoutinsignia.com/eagmedal.htm states you can wear the medal in civilian dress. I know I read it once that it was ok, wish I could remember where.

And I just noticed that "Adults wear onlyon formal Eagle occasions." p 30 of the Guide to Awards and Insignia.

Actually the Corps of Discovery is an unofficial Venturing Honor Society that is starting to takeoff. http://www.venturingcorps.com/

Sea Scouts in SR7 have created the Order of the Golden Dragons. http://sasserrc.tripod.com/cardinalwardroom/id37.htm

Wish I could spin off, but an FYI here. The USGS offers the latest topo maps that use satellite imagery instead of drawings for download for free. Also has UTM grid on the map, with Lat and Log marked on the side. If you have a plotter, you are good to go. OPtherwise Staples or Office Depot are your friend.

"Explorers/Venture Crews did not exist back then.."

With all due respect, SEA SCOUTS, which was called Sea Exploring in my youth and is part of Venturing today, was around when the OA was formed. Sea Scouts is the 2nd oldest program in the BSA, being started in 1912. OA, while founded in 1915, 3 years AFTER Sea Scouts, did not become an official program of the BSA until the 1940s if memory serves.

Yep, SSScout is correct EVERYTHING the troop has is legally owned by the CO, including the bank account. One of the best reasons to have a good relationship with your CO is just that. When my troop had it's storage locker broken into and supplies scattered everywhere, CO didn't do anything about it b/c the supplies that were in it was theirs and one of the groups needed some stuff. Didn't matter to them that the lock was broken, a mess was made, and supplies that we needed were no longer there. While that incident didn't look for us to find a new CO, the brand new fiber glass shed that we bought for storage that was used as a dartboard so that it had so many leaks everything in it had mildew or was broken, that did it. Luckily the CO let us take what little was left with us.

But I know of one troop/CO relationship that was so horrible, that when the troop when they heard that the CO was going to disband them, they spent every dime in it's account on gear and then sold it super cheap to another troop so that the CO would not get the money or the gear.

Thanks for the heads up! Do you know if it will work with roughed out leather and vibram soles? That's the problem, the sole's base which is attached to the leather sides is what's falling apart. Stuff I've used in the past with success didn't work this time.

Since the thread is revived, I will go ahead and give an update. DO NOT GET THE TACTICAL RESEARCH KHYBER BOOTS!!!!!!! And yes I am screaming at the top of my lungs. Had the boots approx 14-16 months and the stitching started to come apart. While I can sew the roughed out leather together, I can't attach the leather to the vibram soles as they were cemented on. And when I try to sew them together, the filament tears through the rubber.

One of my Eagles has suggested Danner's Rugged All Terrain (RAT) boots. He loves them and has done 2 tours overseas with them. Pricey as all get out, anywhere from about $250 - $350 for a pair, so I won't be getting them anytime soon, but I can dream.

Ok a little history, and EMB, please correct me where I screw up as you are the expert.

1972, Leadership Corps was created for older scouts in a troop. It was a leaderhsip patrol that would dome some things on their own. FYI My troop used them and I liked the concept.

1989, Leadership Corps are replaced with the Venture Crew within a troop. They had an ASM Venture, and a Crew Leader POR patches. Also were able to wear the 'Varsity/Venture Letter" on a jacket or MB sash and would do outdoor oriented activities to earn Venture Pins to wear on the sash like Varsity Scouts. Around 1993 or thereabouts, Varsity Scouts could earn the Venture Pins and Venture Crew members, do not know if Venture Scout was an official term or not but heard it back then, could earn the Varsity pins.

1998 Venturing splits from Exploring. To try and ease the confusion some, which many told the PTB the confusion will happen b/c there are too many similarities, a troop's venture crew became a venture patrol and Venturing called their units Crews. Sea Scout ships could still divide their ships into crews still.

Venture p-atrols still exist.

441,

Good question, I don't know. EMB can You Help? I am going to assume, and you know what can happen when you do that that it goes back to before the 1980s if memory serves me, when MALE Explorers could be elected into the OA still.