Eagle92

Noah,

1) WELCOME TO DA FORUMS!

2) I cannot resist this as I love Wilderness Survival weekends.

I've seen it done a bunch of different ways.

One way I've seen it done is by patrol. Patrol works together building the shelter, doing utensiless cooking etc. Meetings prior to the event were spent on lashings, shelter building, utensiless cooking etc. Morning of campout was spent building the shelters, afternoon spent doing pioneering competitions and having fun. As mentioned, have a back up plan, especially for food. I've seen food literally go up in flames.

Another way I've seen is done individually, with each person responsible for their own supplies i.e. a set list of equipment to use in a survival kit and food. Weekend is every man for himself. In one case, adults did intervene when some of the Scouts, specifically new Scouts, didn't have the proper sleeping bags for the weather that came in. They brought some extra blankets, but not enough. Those that stayed in the shelters during the snowstorm are still proud of their feat to this day.

Now if you got the time and resources, I think this final way is AWESOME ( caps for emphasis, not shouting at you, ok maybe a little 'cause when I saw this i thought it was "AWESOME" )

Summer camp MBC took the group and I to the back side of camp. When we reached the final shelter before the wilderness area, he stopped, laid out an "amnesty sheet" and we sat for about 30 until all the contraband items were turned in. When we finally got to our location the group found some supplies strewn out over the field and given a scenario. Only what was in their pockets and in the supplies, some of which they had to find in bushes and other challenging areas, were they able to use. During the overniter, " jet fuel explosions," "snake bites," "earthquakes" etc occured that forced the guys to think and use their skills. Again I thought the event was AWESOME!

One thing I remember that MBC telling me NEVER to do when doing this type of training: MAKE ACTUAL AIR TO GROUND SIGNALS VISIBLE IN THE AIR (all caps emphasis). He had them using dirt and making the sign very small on the ground, just enough to show they know their stuff. Reason being that when he first did this for the merit badge class, a helicopter, don't remember if it was state trooper or local sheriff, saw the signals and landed to see what the medical emergency was. Luckily it turned out OK.

JP,

Don't know why IOLS and Specific training are required/recommended on tour permit. I am going to assume, and you know what can happen when you assume , that because the scouts should be teaching the scouts these skills, it is assumed that enough folks in the troop have the the skills needed to camp. But again that is an assumption.

As for training expiration, with the exception of specific trainings that do have expiration dates, i.e. YP, SSD, SA, etc currently, and I stress CURRENTLY, training does not expire. National was thinking about having folks redo basic training every time it changes. So the 20 year SM who has been there, done that, has the SM Key, got the three beads woggle and necker, ad nauseum, would be "untrained" until they redid their basic training with the most current version. There was a lot of flack on facebook when that was proposed. Currently it is up to the local training folks as to whether to accept the older training or not.

As Juan Sanchez villa-lobos Ramirez once sang, "B-A-L-A-N-C-E, balance." You have to have a balance between parental involvement, and parental interference. That's a hard one for new scout parents, even old fogeys who know better, especially for former, or in my case current, Cub Scout leaders. CS leaders must 'Unlearn what you have learned," as Master Yoda would say.

As Sentinel stated, let the troop committee handle it as your job is to work with the Scouts.

Communication is a key, if the committee does not let folks know they need help, it won't happen.

My comments.

1) Unit award seems very easy to do. If the troop isn't doing this already, I think there is a problem.

National outdoor awards:

Camping:

2) OK you need to earn 3 Eagle required MBs to get this. WHY? let's add some fun ones like Wilderness Survival, Backpacking, and Pioneering.

3) 25 days and nites of camping, why don't you add some more?

Hiking.

4) I can live with.

Aquatics

5) Again why requiring 2 Eagle required MBs. rest I can live with.

Riding.

6) I can Live With.

Adventure

7) Maybe I'm reading it wrong, it may be a typo as 4-10 may be the 3A-g mentioned later., but some folks cannot afford multiple HA trips. I was lucky enough to get 1 as a youth.

Achievment Medal

8) Don't like the WFA requirement since you have to go to an outside agency in order to do it. And some of those agencies have minimum age requirements. I know some places say 16, others 18.

9) Also do not like the LNT trainer requirement as A) another outside agency and B) there is another age requirement. (14)

10) Don't like Requirement 7 as the unit should already be doing this.

Also according to The Guide to Awards and Insignia, page 10

Jamboree Insignia

Jamboree emblems for Boy Scouts or Venturers are worn only by registered jamboree participants and staff and are centered above the Boy Scouts of America strip or, for Venturers, above the right shirt pocket above the Venturing strip. No more than two jamboree patches may be worn on the shirtâ€â€one current national jamboree patch above the right pocket and one current world jamboree patch on the right pocket. If the wearer has an interpreter strip above the pocket, merely move the jamboree emblem upward sufficiently to accommodate it.

http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pd...6_Section1.pdf

And here is a link to all sections of the document.

http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/...gniaGuide.aspx

EDITED: When I worked for National Supply, when there were conflicts in information, the Insignia Guide as it was known at the time, was the document that trumped everything else.

According to this document, only CURRENT national scout jamboree insignia.

https://www.scoutstuff.org/media/content/docs/pdfs/34048.pdf

Well it's been over 10 years since I went to PDL-1, but here is what I remember. Prior to going, I had to have basic training completed for Cub Scouts, Boy Scouts, and Explorers ( I told you I'm dating myself Flew in to Dallas and rode a courtesy van to the hotel. So transpo was not an issue except on your own time, what little there is. After breakfast classes begins, and lunches and dinners can be working ones, modeling banqets, FOS dinners, etc. Your patrol is given an assignment to do, and the classes cover all aspects of the job.

We took a field trip to a camp used by Boy Scouts and had campfire program. Also took a field trip to national HQ. Friday nite we went to a rodeo, and Satuday morning was some classes. Satuday nite we were dropped off at a mall, and Sunday was free, so some of us chipped in to rent a car to go to the movies.

Only night we had off, besides the weekend, was the nite of the last episode of FRIENDS which every one, including instructors watched at the bar. Afterwards, some of the ladies in our class had one of the guys go on a scavenger hunt since he was leaving early Friday due to his wedding.

Don't expect any contact with the council office, as that is highly discouraged. One of our guys almost, stress almost, got into some trouble with one of the instructors when he got a call form his council during class. When he came back in, insturctor was ticked off, until the student told him that the $1 million dollar endowment he was working on prior to PDL-1 was finalized. The the Instructor was stunned

Stosh,

I think this is the irony. The troop sent 3 scouts to NYLT. They were pumped and ready to go. I was even asked about the district calendar so that they can plan the year. And that was the last I heard of it. I have a feeling SM doesn't want to plan events until after his son's soccer schedules comes out.

Ok, long story short, the ODL uniform ( circa 1980-2008), the Centennial Uniform, (circa 2008 - present) and microfiber uniform shirt (2010 to present) all are interchangeable. You can wear an ODL shirt, with CU pants. and vice versa. Heck you ALL ( emphasis, not shouting) elements of the uniforms are interchangeable per national instructions, so you can probably get away with the red loops and numbers on the new shirts.

Like I said this situation is really affecting me. I've helped the troop when they were getting started, got to know some of the scouts, helped train the old SM, etc. And there is another reason why I am torn. I was asked to be the SM of the troop and had to refuse it because of my sons in Cub Scouts. I know the old SM is not trying to guilt trip me whenever he says, " The troop wouldn't be so [fouled] up if you would have taken over as SM," But part of me does in fact feel some guilt. But part of me knows I couldn't do it, and it would hurt my kids.

Now the situation is so bad, when it did look like the current SM would be stepping down (he's not) I actually thought about being SM for the troop. But I think the troop needs so much work, that my oldest son would not benefit at all, and maybe not the younger two either. I think it may need to be completely restarted from scratch.

Fred,

 

Believe it or not, there is a relationship, to a degree, with the troop. SM and one MC were the prior CMs of the pack. All the other leaders and committee members were DLs ot MCs of the pack. I think that's part of their problem: they are still acting as Cub Scout leaders. So these are folks we know. Good folks, but they don't understand BOY Scouts (all caps emphasis in this post ).

 

Schiff,

 

I hate to say it, I didn't think of unhitching the trailer. I was kinda stunned about the situation. And I SHOULD have remembered they could have done that since the SM forgot the awards for the COH and had to leave camp to pick them up at his house. That's when I found out the troop was having a COH, when I asked where the SM was and was told to pick up the awards.

 

Resqman,

 

I know one Scout is committed to that troop because his dad is an MC and his brother is either SPL or ASPL. And I know 1 parent has a history with the troop my son is joining: the Troop's CC was his SM and the current SM was his ASM back in the day. I think that the hope among many is he can turn it around. Some told me it takes 7 years and everyone to create a good troop, but 7 minutes and 1 person to destroy it.

As I mentioned, the Cub Scout folks moving to the troop do know the leaders as they were involved with the pack. There were concerns when it was announced who the new SM would be because the pack CC, who became CM when he left, was the one who kept the pack from falling apart.

Despite the fact that they have canceled camp outs, have not participated in district events in over a year, have major problems when they do go camping and have lost boys over the past year, the parents are happy because the meetings are focused on MBs, and the Scouts are in a "Hi speed,low drag." unit. A complete 180 degree turn from where the troop was prior to the SM taking over. Interesting that one kid has 6 MBs within a year, but just got his 2nd Class rank this month. And no, he didn't go to summer camp.

Troop growing up never used them, Troop I camped with this weekend has them and uses them. They are the ones with legs instead of "U" bars underneath, so the 3-4 year old tent floors are wearing out fast and they are looking for new tents.

Funny thing is, for one of those years, they only camped about 4 times, including summer camp.

Base,

The SM's son is a "spoiled brat and bullies everyone." Hence one of the reasons my son didn't join them. He was the scout I mentioned in a post a year ago who left his patrol during competitions at camporee, He was the one who wouldn't do what anyone told him to do, instead played with in the axe yard. From what I've been told by multiple sources, he is the troop troublemaker who was the reason some folks switched troops or left all together. An he's 13 and Star. How the heck he got that far so fast the way he acts, go figure.

If I could spin off this thread, I'd ask How can a patrol solve remove an appointed PL?

RS,

I think he was able to get a tour permit because he included the Pack on it as well as his unit. When I went to file a Pack permit, I was told it was already handled by the troop. Didn't think much of it at the time. Now I know why.

As for the committee, I don't even know if they have a clue.

Well here's an update. I talked to one of the parents who was our Cubmaster, I thought she was a MC but found out otherwise, and got some clarifications.

In regards to Patrol Leaders, The troop did elect PLs until this past month when they were suppose to be elections; According to her the SM said that it was getting to be cliquish with the same folks getting reelected everytime and everyone needed to get a chance in those positions. And of course his son was selected to be a PL since he just got Star and needs a POR.

Sorry no. If the PLs are doing a good job, they will keep getting elected. Should not be term limits. If the scouts in your patrol don't think you can be a good PL, they will not vote for you. You need to do some reflecting on why not.

In regards to not having a second leader, I found out he knew in advance that there would not be a second attending, and was planning on having the pack leaders staying Saturday nite with the troop. It would have been nice to have told the pack that. Normally it would not be an issue, but with the cold and rain, most Cub families are not prepared for it. We were lucky to have them stay as long as they did.

Fred,

 

Believe it or not, there is a relationship, to a degree, with the troop. SM and one MC were the prior CMs of the pack. All the other leaders and committee members were DLs ot MCs of the pack. I think that's part of their problem: they are still acting as Cub Scout leaders. So these are folks we know. Good folks, but they don't understand BOY Scouts (all caps emphasis in this post ).

 

Schiff,

 

I hate to say it, I didn't think of unhitching the trailer. I was kinda stunned about the situation. And I SHOULD have remembered they could have done that since the SM forgot the awards for the COH and had to leave camp to pick them up at his house. That's when I found out the troop was having a COH, when I asked where the SM was and was told to pick up the awards.

 

Resqman,

 

I know one Scout is committed to that troop because his dad is an MC and his brother is either SPL or ASPL. And I know 1 parent has a history with the troop my son is joining: the Troop's CC was his SM and the current SM was his ASM back in the day. I think that the hope among many is he can turn it around. Some told me it takes 7 years and everyone to create a good troop, but 7 minutes and 1 person to destroy it.

But if the leaders won't listen, you cannot do anything about it.

SM did not listen to one young man at his Eagle SM Conference as the Eagle candidate listed all of the troops problems and solutions to them.

SM, committee, and troop would not listen to me as I tried to offer help. I helped train the SM, and was told that I need to adapt with the times in regards to how meetings are done. When I tried to get them to send a rep to round tables to get all the vital information that they are complaining they never got, I'm told "we don't have time to attend all these meetings."

SM, committee, and parents would not listen to the former SM as he tried to offer suggestions to improve the troop. SM said, you got to change with the times. and It got so bad, one parent told him, "You didn't know what you were doing, and the troop is doing so much better now without you."

SM would not listen to his Unit Commissioner's advice. And this UC was extremely knowledgeable and active. He didn't visit his units once a year, he visited them monthly, and sometimes twice a month. UC tried everything to coach and mentor this SM and was ignored.

So this SM, who has only been involved in Boy Scouts for 2 years now, one of which as SM, thinks he knows better than folks who have been involved for years, in the case of the UC 40-50 years,

And Fred, please don't think I am trying to take out my frustration on you with this post. I am not. Rather the frustration is with the situation. The original SM spent YEARS getting the troop running by the boy methods where the boys could essentially do it on their own. I helped out some, and watched some of the first Scouts in the troop grow up to be fine young men. In fact the troop was why I wanted my son to join the pack we are in.

And to see the troop fall apart in less than a year is extremely frustrating.

Fred,

Believe it or not, there is a relationship, to a degree, with the troop. SM and one MC were the prior CMs of the pack. All the other leaders and committee members were DLs ot MCs of the pack. I think that's part of their problem: they are still acting as Cub Scout leaders. So these are folks we know. Good folks, but they don't understand BOY Scouts (all caps emphasis in this post ).

Schiff,

I hate to say it, I didn't think of unhitching the trailer. I was kinda stunned about the situation. And I SHOULD have remembered they could have done that since the SM forgot the awards for the COH and had to leave camp to pick them up at his house. That's when I found out the troop was having a COH, when I asked where the SM was and was told to pick up the awards.

Resqman,

I know one Scout is committed to that troop because his dad is an MC and his brother is either SPL or ASPL. And I know 1 parent has a history with the troop my son is joining: the Troop's CC was his SM and the current SM was his ASM back in the day. I think that the hope among many is he can turn it around. Some told me it takes 7 years and everyone to create a good troop, but 7 minutes and 1 person to destroy it.

Well my oldest is now a Boy Scout, I admit I cut him some slack and removed the CS insignia and sewed on the new unit numbers and Arrow of Light badge instead of making him do it himself. It was relaxing for me and it needed to be done ASAP, because of his new troop's Court of Honor tomorrow. Plus he helped clean gear from the camp out this weekend.

And trust me, I needed the relaxing. This weekend was the camp out in which the troop asked the pack to do the Cross Over on. So we made a pack camp out of the weekend. On the Pack side of things, what really hurt us was the weather. Cold and rainy was not fun for some of the Cubs, and all of the Cubs left after the Cross Over.

The Boy Scout side was Interesting. Boy Scouts started arriving after 5PM, but the SM with the trailer didn't arrive until around 7PM. That was because there was lighting issues on the trailer, and they tried to resolve them. So we had scouts waiting for tents to be put up and set up camp. Then they started up setting up in the same campsite. This got a little interesting when one of the Scouts tried to take over the two tables under the shelter. Had to remind him that the Cubs also needed table space and that both the troop and the pack needed to share the tables, especially since the Cub Families were cooking their own meals until dinner Saturday. Then we had scouts begging for left overs instead of helping their patrols get their camps set up. Lots of talking back form the scouts, even when I was willing to share the left overs with the entire patrol once they were finished setting up.

Chatting with some of the Boy Scouts I found out that the PLs and SPL are appointed by the SM, so that "everyone get's a chance." When I told him how it's suppose to be done, patrols electing their own PLs, troop electing the SPL, and then the SPL appoints positions like QM, Scribe etc, was told 'That's no how we do it.'

Now everyone, both the troop and pack, knew we would be doing some last minutes advancements the Webelos earned, and doing the AOL/Crossover ceremonies. That was what the troop wanted. But the pack wasn’t told the Troop would be doing their Court of Honor immediately after the Cross Over Ceremony. I am sure that whoever came up with that idea didn’t take into account A) the Boy Scout parents having to deal with a Cub Scout ceremony and b) Cub Scout parents and younger siblings, having to sit still longer than the planned ceremony. Luckily their COH lasted about 10 minutes. The drive to and from camp lasted longer than the COH for those parents who came to camp for the COH.

Now I mentioned that it was cold and raining. The pack decided to call it a day after the ceremony and everyone went home. And I knew some of the Boy Scout parents picked up their sons after the COH. I didn’t realized that the 2^nd leader for the troop also decided to leave as well until I started to pack up my tent to leave. I guess he thought the 3^rd leader was staying and it was OK, but didn’t tell anyone. Problem was 3^rd leader was on call, actually is always on call, and had a call out for his job and had to leave ASAP. So the troop ended up with 2 Scouts at camp, but only 1 leader. They couldn’t get in touch with mom, and SM didn’t want to leave until daylight due to the trailer’s lighting issues. So I ended up staying to make sure they had 2 deep. Thankfully the wife understood when I called her to explain the situation.

Had an interesting conversation about training in the district and his troop. He’s frustrated the district only offers IOLS only once a year. Says folks in the troop shouldn’t have to travel to other districts or councils to get training. Thankfully I was in a very good mood from seeing my old den Crossover because I was polite and tried to explain how things work, i.e it takes time an planning to do the classes, you have to coordinate with staff schedules, etc etc. Heck I even gave the example of when I did training in a metro size council: half the districts teamed up to do SM and ASM training in the fall, the other half did it in the spring. So our council is lucky to be doing IOLS 9 times a year. What I did not remind him is that I specifically planned IOLS around the troop’s schedule because I knew they needed it, especially with the old SM leaving, and only 1 adult from the troop registered for it because , “It’s too cold to camp [in January].â€Â

Then he said that there are other ways to get the training. First he tried to say that if the training chair would approve, he could do the training within the troop. To which I replied, we already had some issues with the district level trainings and quality, would a troop really have all the resources to put it on the training. (An aside, while some troops probably do have the resources, including staff, to do it, a troop with only 1 trained leader and other who are only helping to make sure the kids go camping, doesn’t.) Next he said that he ‘s involved with training with is company and that if the company doesn’t have the resources to do a training course, they go to outside agencies. Tried to tell him you are also paying for those outside agencies too, increasing the cost.

There were other issues why my son joined a different troop. But after this weekend, I am so glad he isn’t in this one. Just concerned about those Scouts from my old den who are joining this troop. Already had one of my old Cubs make the comment, :â€ÂIf I don’t’ like the troop, I’ll transfer to [another].â€Â

Desertrat77 posted:

 

Past: OA was a society of honor campers; it wasn't easy to be elected. It was also a service organization.

 

Present: OA is neither.

 

Desert, those two things are cause and effect. The OA has lost much of its appeal due to ease of obtaining membership, and a rebranding as "A National Honor Society". A mere change in name caused a huge shift in perception, from an organization based on skills, and passing on that skills, to a group who is honoring inductees.

One that has not , repeat NOT implemented, but folks are trying to work on the details: BACKPACKING CAMPOREE. Events would start at one location on Friday nite. Then you backpacked to the second location. Along the route there would be stations where you did basic T-2-1 Skills.

I been around. some lodges are awesome, some ok, some need work. Some focus on American Indian Affairs, some cheerful service, some promoting camp. It's what the scouts put into it.

I'm fortunate in that the lodge I am in does a lot. I'm not as active as I wish I could be, but here are someof the activities my chapter and lodge does

January = Lodge leadership Development

February= Local camps workday

March= Ordeal Weekend at main camp, Chapter fundraiser ( trading post) at Webeloree

April= Conclave

May= Ordeal Weekend at main camp

June-August weekly powwows at summer camp

Sept. Recover form last 8 months

October= Ordeal Weekend, chapter fundraiser at Cub Family Camp (trading post)

November = Fall Fellowship, chapter fundraiser at district camporee traiding post.

December Chapter Christmas party.

Add in chapter workdays, about one every 3-6 months depending upon what is going on, Plus we sometimes have folks going to the camp to work on some of the chapter projects on their own time.

Also add in Cross overs, Call Out ceremonies, camp promos and unit elections.

Proud to say that my chapter has sent a scout to summer camp every year since forever. Also proud to say that over 10 years,we have donated over $12000 to maintaining the local camp in our district. That money is not budgeted, and it helps ALOT with camp upkeep.

My SPL attended Roundtables all the time. His input was as important as anyone else's. He didn't show up just to go off with the OA guys in another room. He stayed with the SM/ASM's. As the adults planned district activities they always would take into consideration what he had to say about what he thought the boys would like. Only one ever questioned his presence at the meetings and yet never brought their own SPL's. I had one person early on ask why I brought my SPL and I said, that we were boy led and he was just doing his job. He smiled and the subject never came up again.

 

Stosh

Must be that 3 Charisma I have.

OOE,

All Cub Scout leaders can wear 1 temporary insignia either on the pocket, or above the pocket, just not 2 temp insignia.

Female Boy Scout and Venturing leaders also have the option of one temp insignia either on the pocket, or above it. But again not 2 temp insignia.

Why female Venturers who may have the same anatomical problems that the over 21 ladies have, I don't know.

As for Sea Scouts, no temp insignia is allowed UNLESS it's the Sea Scout 2012 100th anniversary patch. http://www.sgtradingpost.com/product.php?product_id=570&subcat_id=90

Now as to why NOACs are not accorded the same respect as Jamborees? Don't know. But Philmont, Sea base, N Tier, etc are not accorded Jambo status either.

OA Chapter Chief and District VOA president are the youth representatives on a district committee. grant you I've never seen a district VOA pres, and the last time a CC showed up with the OA chapter advisor, the adults behaved so badly that the CA and CC both said, "Never again."

I posted this response in the other thread, and I think it;'s the best one ever.

"NewToScoutsDad, why don't you ask the Patrol Leaders' Council, the ones who plan, prepare, and execute the camp outs, to see if they want your son tagging along or not."

Gotta remember, youth should be running this program and making the decisions.