Eagle92

'99,

I know where you are coming from in regards to some of your statements, I have been a training chair once upon a time. And unfortunately I've seen first had running a troop like a business and I helped train the leader, so he knew better! (And please do not get me started on that one as it is ongoing unfortunately and when experienced folks try to counsel we are told we don't know what we are talking about

But I don't like wasting people's time. I like test outs and "personal Counseling" to get the training. But the point I'm trying to make is this: if you have had training, or advanced training as some cases may be, that covers the same exact material, It should apply for the basic training.

I'll give you an example. I went through BA22, the youth equivalent of it's day. I not only learned how a troop operates, run a meeting, counsel, mentor etc, it was an intense course on scoutcraft so that I could teach those skills in the troop.Like you the outdoor portion of the old SM Fundamentals was silly for me. Also having me go through BALOO was a waste of my time since everything covered in BALOO was also done in IOLS, which I had taught.

Again the WB 3 beader being untrained as a ASM, he went through WB21C when he was a CM and staffed as an ASM, was silly because SM specific material is touched upon and expanded in WB21C. That's why I like test outs and personal counseling. Demonstrate you know what you are doing, and discuss changes in policies, how BSA does things etc. And yes BSA has changed since the 1970s, (don't get me started on that either Wink ) but the way to keep folks up to date is Round tables and not making them redo training every time the name changes, which is what National was trying to do.

NJ, In regards to the stolen hat, it happened at a homeless shelter we were doing a Scouting for Food project for. If a scout stole it, shame on him. if one of the homeless stole it, I hope they really needed it.

JBlake,

That staff would not have liked my old troop's policy. ANY Scouting, and note I do not specify BSA, hats were approved for wear by the SM. Should have seen us when we went to summer camp when the Canadians were with us right after the twin city ceremonies, as we had guys wearing not only an assortment of BSA hats, but also from both Scouting associations in Canada.

And one of the leaders no longer had a BSA uniform after that ceremony, but he did have a French Canadian Association's uniform.

99,

I do hope that's sarcasm. I am an advocate for training. BUT I do not want to waste people's time either.

So I will play Devil's Advocate.

I don't think the Eagle Scout whose been to Philmont 3 times needs IOLS.

I don't think the Eagle Scout, summer camp staffer, who's prior military and is a Camping, Cooking, Hiking, ad nauseum MBC who's been to WB AND staffed it, hence a 3 beader, needs IOLS.

I don't think the Eagle Scout who's been to Brownsea 22, the equivalent of today's NYLT and hence WB, needs outdoor skills training. Especially since BA22 was created by Green Bar Bill, and has a heavier dose of outdoor skills than today's IOLS course.

And if national didn't allow local folks to recognize older training,

I don't think the 50+ year veteran SM, who went through all the training for the SM Key, is a 3 Beader from the 70s, served on training staff , and still camps on a regular basis with the troop, albeit with a cot instead of on the ground due to age needs to redo training.

That's why I am glad testing out is allowed and the district/council training chairs being allowed to recognize older training.

Don't let RichardB see those. LOL.

Believe it or not, I've been told by a JLTC SM and staff advisor, I'm dating myself now, that the JLTC patch goes in the jambo spot, and that the IG was incorrect.

I also had an SM ticked off at me for allowing his scouts to correct their uniforms before a uniform inspection that was a camporee event. Stormed up to me bellowing why was I telling his scouts that the JLTC patch was worn incorrectly and that they needed to wear a POR patch with the trained patch.

IG was my friend that weekend, and all's well that ended well.

NJ,

Boonie hats are good, BSA even made one briefly. If my fat head could fit in it, the CS version would at the local distributor would be mine. But IMHO, the best all purpose hat is , and I may be committing sacrilege saying it, is the Expedition, aka Brimmed Hat. It's waterproof and crushable. I'm on #2 as the first one was stolen. I've gone through multiple storms, inlcuding hurricanes with them.

BUT, I love my SMOKEYS!

BP, You haven't seen the official 1995 WSJ postage stamp the Netherlands issued. It has a photo of a scout in a smokey bear and necker with no shirt worn. And some associations do allow the necker to be worn without official shirt, the Netherlands is one as well s the UK if memroy serves. And some associations, the necker IS the only uniform item, although other items may be optional. In the 1990s if memory serves, Croatia started out with only neckers and gradually expanded the uniform to include a shirt.

It depends upon the council. Some councils are now demanding everyone be fully trained. Others are phasing it in. Some will allow up to 12 months, essentially until the recharter, to meet the training requirements, some 6 months, and some have to do it or you will not be able to charter. Talk to your unit commissioner, or district commissioner for advice.

NJ,

1) Please do me a favor, USE SOME TYPE OF CHEMICAL PROTECTION TO KEEP GBB'S SIGNATURE SAFE!!!!! (caps for emphasis, ok maybe a little shouting )

Long story short, I had a necker with his signature and the signature was erased when the necker was washed. At least Bill would be proud in why it got washed: I did first aid with it.

2) Wear the smokey with pride.

I'm old school, so not for not for me. I won't wear them because A) not for uniform wear and B) I remember when they were called "Mother's Pins."

Now if I ever get a Eagle Scout Dad tie tac, as well as one of the old green uniform ties, I may wear the tie tac with the tie. But again I'm old school and prefer neckers.

I don't know about this jambo, but the last time I worked summer camp during a jambo year, 2001, we had a 20+% drop in summer camp attendance. We also lost staff, but don't know the stats. If memory serves, our Boy Scout camp was over, and we were doing Sheriff's Camp during that time.

NJ,

1) WELCOME TO DA FORUMS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ( And yes I am Shouting at ya )

2) In regards to the campaign cover, officially here is what is to be worn by adults: Leather hat band, leather chin strap, Adult Universal Emblem. So the Eagle Rank Pin that BSA now sells, and about time too IMHO, is not to be work on the hat. Plus it's tiny, 7/16 x 7/16"

Now I've seen things that are not offical BSA worn on the smokeys. both of mine have British leather bands that were branded at one of the scout camps I worked at. Prior to that, one of the smokes had a white with blue polka dots ribbon that served as the hat band as that was the official Staff ribbon for JLT and all the staff, both youth and adults, wore that ribbon on they smokeys.

I also wear plumes. One is a green British SM plume I got in the UK, the other is a 100th Anniversary plume. Originally in some Scout associations, the color of the plume told folks your position While it never made its way here. Somone on occasion sells them on ebay.

14 Days for Zip Line training?1?!?!?!?!? NCS COPE Director certification, which covers Zip Lines, is 7 days and held all over the nation.

As Green Bar Bill stated in the 3d ed. SMHB, "OUTING is three-fourths oF ScOUTING." Yes the current BSHB misquotes Bill, and do the math to confirm -

BP said it far better than I could. But here's my $.02 worth.

The outdoors gets us away from all the pressures of modern life, and really gives kids their first shot at freedom from parents, teachers, etc. Yes adults are there to make sure everything is safe, but in essence they are on their own. They learn and apply skills that in our modern society 20 and 30 somethings don't know how to do. They are given a chance to do things on their own, and screw up royally and learn from the mistakes. And while Kudu may not like this part I gotta say it, It gives kids responsibilities and leadership experiences that our society are pushing later and later back.

Like I said I wish the requirements would go from this:

"1. Before the jamboree you must:Be a Star Scout and have earned all of the following merit badges: Citizenship in the Nation, Personal Fitness, Swimming and Lifesaving

OR

Earn the Ranger Award"

to this

"1. Before the jamboree you must:Be a Star Scout and have earned all of the following merit badges: Citizenship in the Nation, Personal Fitness, Swimming and Lifesaving

OR

Earn the Sea Scout Ordinary (or Able let the PTB decide) Rank

OR

Earn the Ranger Award"

I specifically state Ordinary or Able Rank since they are not restricting the program to Eagles only.

.

I like my Opinel better than my Gerber Gator.

My link is to the carbon steel. Thy these for the stainless ones with lanyard

http://www.opinel-usa.com/products.a...TREKKING+KNVES

This one looks "wicked awesome" as my Webelos said. While I have not used the knife, nor heard of "12C27 sandvik stainless Steel" before, doing a quick search, it comes recommended.

http://www.opinel-usa.com/proddetail...el-No8-outdoor

EDITED: Apparently Opinel uses 12c27 sandvik steel for all their stainless knives.

Edit 2: should read "...quick search a quick search on 12c27 sandvik stainless steel, 12C27 Sandvik, comes recommended.

Also my Gator stays in the car, the Opinel is used, ALOT.

I do wish they would modify some of the prereqs to allow Sea Scouts to go for it. Only Boy Scouts and those Venturers with the Outdoor Bronze can do it.

In regards to the color neckers for Cubs, that has been around since at least 1979. Looking at my old Bear Book, it had a 1979 printing on it.

As for the slides and hats, that came bout in the 1990s. I admit I can live with the slides, most folks will go through about 2 a year. Hats on the other hand.

As I stated elsewhere, my troop didn't use the blue cards. Instead we had the MBCs sign the actual BSHB when it was finished. And a copy of the signed requirements from the BSHB was what we used to fix those nasty council records problems.

One resource for doing the cool stuff is the Cub Scout Leader How To Books, especially the older ones. Just be careful with them as some of the stuff mentioned in it is no longer allowed by the BSA, i.e. the Tuna Can Stoves are now no longer allowed. Also talk to the older, experienced Cub Scout Leaders. I'm fortunate in that we have one in my district who's infamous quote when talking to a poor performing DE was "I have forgotten more about Cub Scouts than you ever learned and I still know more than you." When I first became a PD for day camp, she was one of my reviewers for the program.

Me personally I think all the different 'bling," or as BP called it "swank," i.e. belt loops, LNT Award, Messangers of Peace, ad nauseum, combined with all the rules and regs, i.e. G2SS, G2A etc, have overcomplicated the program.

I like what my pack has done, focus on the basics; having fun, learning, and rank advancement. If we get the extras, fine and dandy. But we focus on fun, learning, and earning the ranks.

As for the repetitiveness of the program, when I look at the current Wolf, Bear, and Webelos books, I see a lot of the same materials I used way back when with some minor updates. It may have worked when Cub Scouts was a 3 year program, but not as a 4.5 - 5 year program.

Base,

With all due respect, sometimes the opportunity to take a swim test only comes 1/year at summer camp for a variety of reasons for some units. And sometimes the only opportunity for swim lessons,or instructional swim as I remember taking way back when, is only available at summer camp. That's why I would like more information.

Back to ideas.

If it is indeed stictches, depending upon the location, and a MD or DO's OK, a latex swim cap may be the answer.

If it is ear issues,tubes immediately comes to my mind, then the moldable silicon ear p;ugs may be the answer, again with a MD or DO's OK.

If it is an extreme fear of being underwater due to a previous incident of near, or, as was my case, actual drowning, that allows the scout to swim OK in shallow water, but once in deep water with no feet to put on the bottom extreme panic, then my thoughts are not only no, but heck no.

Again I was one of those who Scouts who when I started Scouts was a non swimmer who was terrified of water due to drowning at a young age (blacking out, CPR, EMS, etc) . Mom gave me an ultimatum a month after joining and finding out some of the stuff my first troop did: learn to swim or quit. I was extremely fortunate to have a YMCA nearby, and an instructor who had the patience of a saint to work with me, not only in class but also during his short break after a class one day that finally got me to swim like a fish in deep water.

Swimming is a life skill, and one that I do not believe short cuts or modifications should be allowed EXCEPT in medical circumstances.

Can it be a pain in the buttocks, absolutely. But as other have stated it's important.

Can it be frustrating? Yep. When I did SM Fundamentals way back when, only useful thing was the paperwork section. Running meetings, Outdoor skills, etc was stuff I did in Scouts and had taught previously. Glad they allow a "test out" option for IOLS now b/c there are some folks who have the knowledge, skills, and abilities and don't need another weekend away from the family. One example I can give is the 3 time Philmont, Eagle Scout who was untrained because he didn;t do IOLS. Best example I can give is the Eagle Scout, former camp staffer, multiple outdoor MBC, WB 3 beader who, becasue he did not do IOLS, was considered "Untrained."

Can you get really ticked off when the training records are screwed up, or, as was my case, the information you were told by the national SCOUTNET director was incorrect and your records did not follow you around. YOU BETTER BELIEVE IT . Yep I was told SCOUTNET would allow records to follow you around, only to learn 12 years later "nope, it never did." And trust me, you don;t want to tell the PTC staffer that according to council, he is not "trained" in the subject he taught at PTC.

Steve,

I second Stout's post, could you elaborate why he cannot have his head under water? There is a technique of entering water over your head BUT keeping your head above water that lifeguards use and is called a STRIDE ENTRY (caps for emphasis). Here is a link and it's page 60. http://trimbath.weebly.com/uploads/1/0/6/1/10617050/chapter5.pdf

Now here's the deal. While the current version at the link has you using a rescue tube, it can be done without it. Basically lean forward with your arms behind you, "fall" into the water kicking your legs, whipping your torso back, and moving your arms forward pushing the water to keep you up. BUT it takes practice and more than likely will go under a few times.

Now if the problem is related to an injury or surgery, i.e. stitches in the head, etc Could he wear a latex swim cap? If it is stitches on the face, could he wear a face mask? Gotta be careful that the mask stays on, speaking from first hand expereince here

AAAARRRRGGGGGGHHHH Both files are too big to attach. I will work on it. Sorry about that.

Bad news and good news. Bad news is that both syllabi are no longer on my computer. Good news is that A) I have a back up somewhere and B) I made multiple copies and passed them around on DVD with other folks in my district. So please bear with me.