Eagle92

If anyone wants a copy of the 1990s JLT course syllabus, or in my humble opinion GBB's better BROWNSEA 22 syllabus for leadership training purposes, PM me.

One of the things I remember as a youth was a day long training course for PLs and other youth leaders put on by the district. The staff consisted of those Scouts who went through BROWNSEA 22 ( BA 22) in the district, or from neighboring districts. It was excellent. Unfortunately after I went through BA 22, it was announced that we would no longer have BA 22 courses, so the district trainings ceased as well. We passed on what we learned by our example and mentoring.

Now I admit, I haven't been involved on the Boy Scout side of things for a while, and I know the push is for classroom style trainings. But IMHO, "OUTING is three-fourths of ScOUTING" ( despite the misquote in the current handbook) and " SCOUTING IS OUTING!" as GBB would say. Get them in the outdoors and doing traditional stuff and throw a class (for lack of a better word) or two of training at them. Doesn't have to be long and it can be over several months. And don't just limit it to your PLs, get all the scouts involved.

And while videos can serve a purpose, I admit I think 2 sections of FOLLOW ME BOYS would be very useful in SM Fundamentals, a discussion with them would be best IMHO. Use the Socratic Method of guided questions and answers to lead them on the discussion on the various topics of leadership.

As Stosh points out, there is all kinds of leadership materials out there, I should know as I have a "Leadership Collection" at my library. But as he also states, you got to read and be careful what points of them you want to use. BUT in my honest opinion, out of all the leadership courses and books I've ever read, the best one for youth would be BROWNSEA 22. Heck I used parts of it for IOLS. Whenever I read reviews of leadership books, or have sat through trainings, I am always reminded of BA22.

2CD,

While the new form is a bit long-winded compared to the previous one, one purpose is for the district or council advancement committee folks to approve the person, or disapprove. I know in my district, we did have folks on the committee reviewing all these forms at one time and compiling into a district book. Let's face it you don't want someone who is just one step ahead of the Scout being an MBC? That would be like having me be a Railroading MBC.

Also with some of the new requirements for some MBCs, it is needed to make sure the MBCs still qualify. Unfortunately I no longer qualify as a Canoeing MBC since I don't have any current certs, nor trained by an instructor. Just had the MB as a youth, did 2 fifty milers via canoe, taught the the MB prior to this etc.

I must respectfully disagree with both Krampus and Frank Scout in regards to 15 year old Vigils. If the process follows the way I have seen it done in two different lodges, THEY WERE NOT GIVEN IT AS A TROPHY. (caps for emphasis, not shouting.)

I too have been involved in Scouting for a long time. I too remember when it was common for 14-16 years to be just elected into the Order as that seemed to be the case in my troop growing up. But a few things have changed over the years.

1) In 1989 they removed the time requirements between T-2-1. While it was possible to get First Class in as little as 4-6 monthsper 9th ed. BSHB 2 months before Tenderfoot (and those could be waived if a Scout earned the AOL as a Cub), 2 months for Second Class, and 2 months for First Class, for most folks in my troop it was 12-18 months. As a result Scouts had to wait for the lower ranks. Now it is possible to have 1 BOR for T-2-1 in the same night after a month as a member minimum.

2) Again in 1989 they changed the joining requirements. Again using the 9th ed. BSHB, which was around from 1979-89, you have completed 5th grade AND 10.5 years old or 11 and not yet 18 to be a scout. In 1989 that changed to "completed 5th grade, or has earned the Arrow of Light, or be 11...."

Now I don’t know when the AOL age/time requirements changed, but currently it reads â€ÂBe active in your Webelos den for at least six months since completing the fourth grade (or for at least six months since becoming 10 years old), and earn the Webelos badge.†(emphasis mine). If we go by National’s standard of June 1^st is when the school year ends, then December 1^st is the earliest a Webelos can join. So my son could join a troop as early as 10 years 2 months and 20something days under that methodology. If we used the actual date he finished 4^th grade, it’s now mid-November. And although my pack is active over the summer, even if we did not meet June - August, using National’s definition of ‘Active†he would still be eligible to move up in the November-December time frame.

So Scouts are getting younger. And that means they are becoming eligible for the OA at a younger age.

3) Sometime in the late 1990s, the OA changed the election process. I remember the old 50% rule and how very few got in on the first election because of the process. Heck my third election was the charm. While it was theoretically possible for everyone to get elected, it is mathematically possible under the right conditions and saw it happen 1 time only to later discover the SM bragging about how he rigged the election to get everyone eligible into the OA after the fact, usually 1 to 3 Scouts would get in based upon the number eligible. Now it is possible for everyone to get in on the first try.

Using the info above, I’ll write about one scout I know who is now eligible for Vigil. He Joined Boy Scouts at age 10 because of his late birthday and he got the Arrow of Light and within a year he was First Class. however because of the yearly election cycle, he go First Class a month after the troop’s yearly OA election, so he was 12 before he was eligible and got in on the first try.

At 13 he got Brotherhood, and now at 15 is eligible for Vigil. Why do I feel he’s worthy of the Vigil? Well he’s met the standards for any youth who is a Vigil, whether 14 or 20: HE HAS GIVEN BACK TO SCOUTING BY SERVING OTHERS. ( caps are emphasis again). He continues to serve his troop, despite getting his Eagle and being asked by some parents why he is still around. He has served his chapter as an officer and being on the chapter level ceremonies and dance team. He has served the lodge by representing the lodge at conclaves and NOACs, as well as teaching new Arrowman AIA stuff. He has served his district by being on Cub Scout Day Camp Staff for 2 years when he was my den chief, and is now on his second year on summer camp staff.

Would I trust my life, and more importantly my family’s lives in his hands, ABSOLUTELY, POSITIVELY YES! ( this time I am shouting )

As Aerosmith sings, “ Never judge a book by it’s cover…..†And to paraphrase Master Yoda, Age matters not.

Nahila Nakne

“Dances with Foolsâ€Â

A Couple of comments.

1) It is entirely possible for one set of folks on a committee to run multiple units. I've seen this with a SCOUTREACH program where the committee was the same for 3 or 4 different units, and I've seen it with A troop/crew combination. Is it easy, no people should really "wear one hat" (HAHAHAHA pot calling the kettle black )but it is possible and allowed by BSA

2) In some countries, that is how scouting is done, i.e. one committee supports all the units. If I remember correcetly, and one of our Brit members please tell me if I am wrong, A scout groups will consist of Cubs, Scouts, and Explorers. The group leadership is essentially a committee that supports the pack, troop, and crew. Some units have been around longer than some councils have been around.

3) Because of the small unit nature of GSUSA, their troops are essentially the size of BSA patrols, of course more activities can be done. BUT becasue they are so small, there is not enough room for everyone and some girls are denied the program.

It's very simple. The DEs either take names from the phone book or leave formerly registered boys and units on the books. They have to pay the fees themselves. It was easy enough back when I was a DE in the 70s and must be even easier now with computer inputs. As someone said, as long as professional Scouters are promoted and paid based on numbers there will be fudging. Not by all, but by some.

Unfortunately some pros DID commit fraud, andit is well documented. Phone books, school year books, and cemeteries, I have heard about. Renewing folded units' charters and refusing tor remove names from a charter is something I've seen first hand and had to deal with the repercussions of it happening.

Officially I started 4 units in the 20 months as a DE. In actuality I had 2 additional units that were non existent for several years but still "active." Essentially I followed the new unit process to get them running. But got no credit since the charters were active.

And when I left, 4 units I dropped were renewed by someone at the office. Although someone tried to blame me for faking them. Thankfully my volunteers knew I was dropping them, and I have copies of all the paperwork and notes about the units.

I personally think the new UTVS that commissioners are suppose to use helps to prevent the problem because volunteers tend to keep the pros in line. if they see units dying or non exstant, it will get noticed faster.

No problem.

I used WD-40 to loosen the blade up. That and use.

Opinel does make a WOSM version of the knives

http://www.worldscoutshops.com/PBSCProduct.asp?ItmID=10356003

http://www.worldscoutshops.com/PBSCProduct.asp?ItmID=10356075

Yes it's too long as is and will be worse if Lions goes nation wide as I've heard may be the case. Cub Scouts is the most leader intensive program of Scouting and does produce burn out. Also many Cubs get bored. I know a Den of Webelos who are chomping at the bit to become Boy Scouts.

Not 30 years ago, only 28years, but we used 3 pot method in the 2 troops I was in growing up.

So unbelievably true. Our society pushes and pushes folks to go to college, even if it isn't a good fit. Heck even some of the skills trades are looking for college degree now. Because in our society a piece of paper saying you completed a program means more than x number of years expereince.

Further it's Catch 22 now. You need expereince to get most jobs now, but you need a job to get the expereince. Especially with youth today. Ther are so many rules and restrictions on whatthey can and cannot do, it's no wonder that some companies will not hire youth.

Which is another benefit of Scouting: letting youth gain expereince. I constantly surprise coworkers with some of the things I did in Scouting as a youth and young adult leader.

My Opinion.

1) FIRST AID MB ( emphasis not shouting) People find out you're a Scout, the expect you to know first aid, even if you just crossed over to Boy Scouts abotu 2-3 weeks previous to the emergency,

2) Swimming MB OR Instructional Swim.

3) Any Handicraft MB.

Khaliela, there is no room for 3 cots in a standard, canvas tent used by summer camps. I

 

let the SPL have a tent to himself.

Most summer camps provide cots nowadays. I don't use one except there.

In regards to 8 boys in 3 tents end to end, try 8 boys in a 4 man tent. Big Grin

I remember those old wall tents. My troop had 3 in storage with no floors and built in netting. If your patrol damaged the newer tents, you got stuck in one of those.

I've never tried it, but it was a regular thing with the German scouts. Not only would they sleep as a patrol in them, they would cook in them too.

This is the reason that the Girl Scouts not only disallow ISAs, but have also eliminated the gift card incentives from their sales.

 

Every ISA program that I know of involves the scout going out and selling something on behalf of the BOY SCOUTS. "I'm Johnnie from so-and-so troop and would you like to buy some widgets?" The implication is that the funds support the troop or the program, not the boy's individual account.

 

If a boy wants to raise money for camp, there is a very simple solution: go get a job. That's the only way it is truly on the up-and-up. I predict that sooner or later there will be a change to the ISA convention in Boy Scouts, given the number of people with axes to grind against the organization, not to mention the current stance of the IRS against conservative organizations......

And let's not forget with the way the economy is going, a lot of jobs that would be for teenagers are going to unemployed adults.

Khaliela, there is no room for 3 cots in a standard, canvas tent used by summer camps. I

let the SPL have a tent to himself.

Well, Looks like the overbearing parents have taken over the troop mentioned above. Since the last post the Old SM of the troop was told by one of the parents that he didn't know what he was doing and the troop is running so much better since he stepped down when he tried to offer advice to her son who was the Troop Guide of the patrol he was ASM for. On several occasions I commented that the former CM needed to step back and let the scouts do the work, only to be told in no uncertain terms that I am not part of the troop and to but out.

Sad thing is, my hope for the troop, is seeing some of this and has some concerns. His old troop was restarted about 4 years ago, and it sounds as if he may go there to help them get reestablished, especially since his old SM is still involved with them.

Good news is that oldest enjoyed a Webelos Overnighter that another troop put on for the Webelos who attended day camp. He had a great time at the overnighter once day camp was finished.

And I got to use ' Have you asked your PL?" for real finally

Youth decide. Growing up we had 3-4 patrols depending upon size of the troop: 2-3 mixed aged patrols and a Leadership Corps, what would now be called a Venture Patrol. Every six months we got to decide where we would go and elect PLs. Rarely would folks move about, but it occurred. New Scouts would be "buddied up" with a scout an placed in a patrol at the Webelos Overnighter, so when they joined the troop, they joined their buddy most of the time.

Leadership Corps got interesting. had to be First Class or higher, served as a PL, and be "elected" by the LC to join them. Very informal election process. Yes or no.

DB,

 

While some give b/c they know how important scouting is, there are some who are knot hungry. I know a guy who paid $4000 so that his entire family would all be West Fellows and wear the knot. I kid you not!

 

Then there is the 50+ year SM who was honored with a West Fellowship by the troop members and alumni for everything he did for the troop over the years.

 

Funniest West story, and one that probably all but 5 of the West Fellows don't even realize they are Fellows is the following. We had a very wealthy and generous donor pass away, leaving a very large sum to the endowment. The SE and DFS wanted to be #1 in James E West Fellowships and got permission to give the 5 full time support staff 1 support staffer who had just retired, and everyone who earned Eagle Scout that year a West Fellowship. Bet the 150+ Eagles don't know they can also wear the West Knot -

2 Cub, Oh they made sure people knew the Eagles were West Fellows, their names were added to the council's plaque. But I don't remember the certificates and knots being issued.

As one of those scouts who needed an ISA to stay involved, I am all for it. Seriously if it wasn't for the 'scout account' that allowed me to pay dues, go camping, summer camp, etc I would not have been able to afford Scouting after my father walked out.

My troop did one fundraiser a year: working at a local fair. The troop got a set amount to do cleanup, and that was divided by the total number of man hours used for cleanup, and each scout that much per hour worked. We could only use it for program,i.e. dues, camp outs, etc, not supplies.

Now the troop also had a hot dog and lemonade stand that the adults worked. That money was used by the troop as a whole.

DB,

 

While some give b/c they know how important scouting is, there are some who are knot hungry. I know a guy who paid $4000 so that his entire family would all be West Fellows and wear the knot. I kid you not!

 

Then there is the 50+ year SM who was honored with a West Fellowship by the troop members and alumni for everything he did for the troop over the years.

 

Funniest West story, and one that probably all but 5 of the West Fellows don't even realize they are Fellows is the following. We had a very wealthy and generous donor pass away, leaving a very large sum to the endowment. The SE and DFS wanted to be #1 in James E West Fellowships and got permission to give the 5 full time support staff 1 support staffer who had just retired, and everyone who earned Eagle Scout that year a West Fellowship. Bet the 150+ Eagles don't know they can also wear the West Knot -

DB,

While some give b/c they know how important scouting is, there are some who are knot hungry. I know a guy who paid $4000 so that his entire family would all be West Fellows and wear the knot. I kid you not!

Then there is the 50+ year SM who was honored with a West Fellowship by the troop members and alumni for everything he did for the troop over the years.

Funniest West story, and one that probably all but 5 of the West Fellows don't even realize they are Fellows is the following. We had a very wealthy and generous donor pass away, leaving a very large sum to the endowment. The SE and DFS wanted to be #1 in James E West Fellowships and got permission to give the 5 full time support staff 1 support staffer who had just retired, and everyone who earned Eagle Scout that year a West Fellowship. Bet the 150+ Eagles don't know they can also wear the West Knot -

I do not envy your situation KDD. Your troop sounds like the troop I was hoping my son would join in a few months. Part of me wants to quote the 9th Doctor, " RUN FOR YOUR LIFE!" (caps to show shouting in orignal, not at you), and part of me is hopeful that things will change with my son's den and the group of parents involved with it and will continue on.

Someone stated that you start talkign about difference between Cub Scouts and Boy Scouts in Webelos. I respectfully disagree, I say start in Tigers.. I was also lucky enough to have a Den Chief for all of Wolves, and a 2-3 months in Bears. Gave him up to the Webelos Den that lost their DL and needed someone with outdoor expereince to help them. THAT DEN CHIEF MADE AN IMPRESSIONON BOTH THE CUBS AND PARENTS! ( EMPHASIS AGAIN). The parents were thoroughly impressed when I would hand over meetings to him to organize and run. Did I have to reign him in a bit at times, yep. He was passionate about Scouting and could lose track of time or forget he's with Cubs and not Boy Scouts.

Anyway my advice is the following, and this is what I will be trying to do in a few months.

1) Chill out! Yep it's time to step back and let him start making decisions, taking initiative, and doing things on his own. Difficult? ABSOFREAKINGLUTELY, especially when the patrol he's assigned to work with is royally screwing up, not getting things done, bickering etc etc. Got so bad I had to leave the campsite several times and visit friends at the event so I would get involved.

2) Let him HAVE FUN!

3) If he starts having problems, counsel, advise, and maybe even look for another unit.

I know I had one pack leader ticked off at me and accuse me of not being loyal to the pack when I encouraged one family to try another pack since things didn't seem to be working out for them. Had to tell them that every unit is diffferent and a different pack may meet their needs better. Rather lose them to another unit and keep them in Scouting than lose them alltogether.

Want some scuttlebutt on why those patches are made by national designed like that? As someone else stated, for the $. Long story short, some patch vendors came up with the design, and staretd sellign them. Then National went into it. I personally hate it b/c it is confusing.

And yes, as a former national supply geek, I can tell you a lot of folks have little to no scouting experience. Just looka t some fo the stupid stuff that supply has sold inthe past few years, i.e the Arrow Light pewter belt buckle for the leather belts.

Deaf,

YOu better support him as best you can. A good DE is worth their weight in gold.

Depending upon where you are, access to supplies like ranks, books, uniforms, etc can be a challenge. When I was in national supply at a scout shop, we had 4 units, 2 packs and 2 troops that was getting their stuff from the shop I worked at. One had it kinda easy: Email from the unit to corporate HQ caused a call to be made to the shop. Order was filled, paperwork collected, and a company employee would pay and pick it up. The order would then be sent on the next company flight.

The other unit was a bit more challenging supply wise. Shipping would be more than most daily orders. So they would do one lump buy every year: uniforms, books, ranks, etc. Kinda funny to see their new scouts earn their Bobcat and Wolf, or Bear, or Webelos and Arrow of Light badges on the same date according to the paperwork they submitted We had top bulk ship it.

Every now and then. someone visiting would pick up stuff for them, but that was maybe once a year.

While Call Out Ceremonies can be impressive and do publicly acknowledge who was elected into the OA, the Ordeal is the important ceremony, as it tests you and makes you a member. A candidate does not need to have gone through a Call Out Ceremony in order to go to the Ordeal. I missed out on the last chance my old lodge could do a legal Tap Out Ceremony at camporee because I was sick. While I was a little ticked at missing it, especially since a year later national banned them because some ceremonialists were going overboard and it was considered child abuse, in some jurisdictions, I was not prevented from attending the Ordeal.

In regards to parent being at ceremonies, I do not see what the big deal is. My folks never came to my OA ceremonies, and I do not remember parents coming out to camporee to see their sons get tapped out.

And I don't get parents wanting to see the Ordeal ceremony, bringing the grandparents and younger siblings, and future Scouts, to the ceremony. Major problems when we had to kick out the grandparents and brother fromt eh ceremony ring, and even more ticked off when they tried to video record it. Wish the folks would not have attended as they did ruin it for the folks going through teh Ordeal who were not their son, i.e. everyone else.

But I do know how difficult it can be to say NO. We had one mother, who was also an assoc. adviser, who wanted to watch the Ordeal when her son did it, and was upset that husband and Dad-in-law, would be in attendance since they were members. I was not about to get involved in that do

mestic dispute.

We built a variation of this, and it is quite safe. The tripod lashing was more to the top and we didn't stand on top of it as that was where the steel rope for the bosun's chair was connected. Also the ladder rungs were integrated onto the tripod and not somewhat detached. We would build a 25'-30' tower on one end, connect steel rope to it and another 20'-25' about 10-25 yards away, and anchor them with guy lines and 2 cars. Hook on your bosun's chair, and you got a 20-30 minute wait for a 30 second ride.

Unfortunately BSA now bans any pioneering projects that people will climb on that are over 5 feet. Page 77 of the current G2SS states that.