Eagle732

No question he completed his project but how disappointing it must be to have done all that work and now it's gone. He'll never get the chance to visit that park years later and see others enjoying his work it and maybe feel just a little proud of what he accomplished.

We camp and have meetings throughout the summer months. Next year we're camping/fishing in June, summer camp in July, canoeing / kayaking in August, caving in Sept. Don't know why boys aren't beatin' the doors down to do stuff like this! After all boys choose the program.

End of the school year is when parents start thinking "what can I get little Johnny into so I don't have him sitting around the house doing nothing all summer?" How about SCOUTING!

Along with what Kudu said about recruiting in the schools. In this area school grades run K through 5 in the elementary schools, 6 through 9 for middle school. As a CM I was very successful in recruiting Cubs, we had a assembly during school hours, followed up with a flyer for sign up night sent home with students, and finally a sign up night a few days before the September pack meeting. We never recruited 5th graders since they would have only had about 4 - 5 months until crossover and we were there to recruit Cubs not Boy Scouts. I'm thinking that recruiting the 5th graders towards the end of their school year (April or May) might get some results. No one that I know of around here does it.

Thanks for the replies and ideas! Some thoughts on the comments so far. Den Chief is, in my opinion one of the best ways to recruit. I would love to have a DC in at least each Web den in our two closest packs. The reality is I only have 8 scouts 1st class or higher and the district frowns on lower ranks taking the job. I've had one or two do the job in the past but no one is willing at this time. Our guys are into everything else and that leaves very little time for DCing. I'll keep pushing that point. Agree with the attrition rates of mega troops. This is why I don't understand why District doesn't actively encourage Webs looking at smaller troops. The only thing I've seen from the higher ups is a short statement in a full page article on Webs crossing over in our Council news letter which states "Don't overlook smaller troops. Many have decades of good Scouting tradition. Your son might enjoy being a big fish in a small pond". Really! Thanks for the help! I've read Bill Hillcourt's book on B-P and many others, B-P often gave others more credit than he gave himself. But B-P didn't have to deal with every other activity in the world coming before Scouts. 32 kids during B-P's time meant 30 kids at a meeting or trip (unless they had to work to put food on the table!). 16 kids today means 5 kids go on a camping trip, the rest have soccer, baseball, or whatever the sport of the season is and can't miss a game or the coach puts them on the bench. Mike F's guys have some proactive ideas, some we already do. Meetings are always open, no dog and pony shows. Planning for a camping trip might not be exciting but it's real life Scouting. I remember showing up with my son unannounced at a troop meeting when we were shopping and the SM being very upset with me, he had nothing prepared for us to do. So we watched a real unscripted meeting and didn't like what we saw. Looked more like a business meeting with a side show of hazing for the poor Tenderfoot Scouts that left some personal items on the last camping trip. I'm not sure how I would know about other Scouts dropping out of the mega troop but if they want to be in Scouting we'll take 'em. Maybe my UC can help with that. Inviting friends who haven't been in Scouting but like the outdoors and talking to WDLs is all good. Parents can help with this too. Maybe we can implement these ideas. Elementary school access (K - 5) is by appointment only and tightly controlled by District. No middle school access that I know of but I'll ask. One of the things that I am most proud of is how our boys welcome and honestly enjoy having new members. Our troop allows Star and up, with SM approval, to sign off on requirements. They take it very seriously and I think think this has a lot to do with it. Thanks again for all the input. (This message has been edited by Eagle732)

A simple question with many not so simple answers. Our troop is what I consider small with 16 scouts. We would like to see it grow to about twice that number which B-P considered to be a good working size for a troop. We have a good program, I'd put it up any other troop around. We camp every month, scouts choose the trips, backpacking, canoeing, bike hikes, caving, camping, rock climbing, etc. We're boy led, SPL, PLs, PLC meets regularly to plan, sometimes things are a little rough with the execution but at least they try. We have a great bunch of boys with no disciplinary problems and a great core group of parents who really enjoy each others company when we camp. We don't have boys quitting either, we loose them to aging out or if they move, but rarely do we have one quit. We try to have a good relationship with the packs nearby. I was CM of the pack in our area a few years ago, I'm still on the committee. The other pack in our area is small but I have reached out to help them, Webs are invited to outings with us throughout the year but few attend. We are having an open house next week, invitations were sent by mail, I hope some attend but who knows. When we do get new boys it's from families with experienced scouters. Last year we had 3 of 5 boys who joined had dads that are Eagles. (In fact all but one of my ASMs are Eagles). The problem we have is that we are in a small community and kids seem to want to go to the mega troop (80 - 90 scouts) 12 miles down the road. They see a large group of boys and all the activity (which is adult led) and perfect organization. We don't even get a glance as they drive by each week to go somewhere else for Scouts. And we're not the only unit in our district in this position, I know of several close to folding. Each suffering from loosing local boys to big troops further away. Small units with good programs and dedicated leaders. Is this the future of Scouting? Large troops where the boys don't get the individual attention they deserve? Small troops folding, losing most of the scouts who won't bother to transfer and loosing the experienced leaders, some with decades of service (almost 30 years for me)? How should this be addressed, if in fact it should be addressed? Should we let the fittest survive and let the weak fold? Can we level the playing field between the mega troops and the small units and if so how? It seems like the district and council would be able to do something to help. It seems to me that it would be in their interest to keep the small units afloat. Cub Scouts was easy, go to the local elementary schools, put on a show, have a sign up night and get 30 new boys. I did it year after year, but the Boy Scout thing, this is tough!(This message has been edited by Eagle732)(This message has been edited by Eagle732)

This month's Eagle Scout Magazine notes the passing of Willard LaGrand Nielsen, age 102 from Sandy, UT. It also states that he became an Eagle Scout in 1959. So doing the math he seems to have earned his Eagle at the age of 51. I know that until 1965 adults were allowed to earn advancements including Eagle. I wonder how common it was in those days? Willard appears to have lived an interesting and rewarding life. See the link for more info. http://www.ldschurchnews.com/articles/58186/Centenarian-finds-joy-in-gospel-Scouting.html

Great news on the Cub side but how about the troops, how are they doing with recruiting?

I have a Thermarest NEO, a bit pricey but man is it comfortable.

Anyone have information on youth group camping near Valley Forge National Historical Park?

Shortridge, To respond to some of the statements made as they relate to the camp we attend. Youth counselors who are under 18 do sign blue cards. The WIlderness Survival MB in my earlier example was signed by a Scout who is not 18, I know this because he is in my troop. I live about 10 minutes from the camp and stop by on a regular basis to help out. I actually ran into the Council Executive and cornered him. I noticed he was wearing Wood Badge beads so I offered him some feedback which I reminded him was a gift. I don't think he liked it so much. Dessertrat, I do believe that market forces influence MB sign offs with or without actually completing the requirements. One of my committee members was teaching a MB at camp and by week 3 he was disgusted with the process. The camp program director was leaning heavily on him to sign off MBs as completed even if Scouts didn't come to all the classes and complete all the requirements. He says he won't be back next year. Imagine what mom would think if little Johnny came home with all partials!

John, "The way to raise standards is to have your COR tell the Council President why Troop NNN will not attend the local Council Camp next summer." Did that, spoke to the Council Executive myself, threatened go out of council to camp next year. And this is from a unit that has for years camped at the council camp. "The way to raise standards is for Scoutmasters to get up their moral courage and have frank discussions with camp management during the session about inadequate quality." Did that. I had a very frank discussion with the Camp Director and Program Director. "The way to raise standards is to withdraw Scouts from classes before the Lodge Director/AD/MB Counselor signs out the merit badge." Not practical. There seems to be a tendency for the youth councilors to wrap up their MBs on Weds. or Thurs. so they can have the rest of the week free. By then it's too late for Scouts to start another MB. "This last includes having the backbone to tell parents, your CC/COR, and unit commissioner about sub-par instruction." Did that. Had a Parent/Committee meeting last night with the CC and COR in attendance. I made my feelings known. In this particular case the problem was mainly with the Scouts attitude that he didn't have to complete the requirements and then BS'ed councilor and got him to sign off. Scout will earn the MB when he completes the requirement. Myself, CC, COR, our resident Wilderness Survival MB councilor, and after a discussion even the Scout all agree. Churlish? I had to look that one up. 1 : of, resembling, or characteristic of a churl : vulgar 2 : marked by a lack of civility or graciousness : surly 3 : difficult to work with or deal with. Not sure which one of these definitions you're referring to me. This is the reason why I haven't posted here for a while.

I just dealt with the same issue with a different summer camp MB. For Wilderness Survival MB the Scout was supposed to build a shelter and spend the night in it (Req. 8), this was to be done near our campsite. The Scout made minimal effort and completes the shelter only with help from an ASM then spends a total of 5 min. in the shelter. He comes to tell me he does not feel safe in his shelter even though he is only about 20' from the other tents. I allow him to go back to his tent telling him he will not complete the MB if he doesn't spend a night in the shelter. Last day of camp the Scout come to me with a signed off blue card. Apparently the camp counselor accepted the story that the Scout built a shelter with friends at home and spent the night in it. I kept the card and told the Scout that he did not complete the requirements and he will not receive the MB until he does. Right or wrong? I don't care, I've seen so many summer camp MBs go to Scouts that did not complete the requirements. Another example this year was Signaling MB in 3 hours with no previous experience or practice in Morse code or semaphore! I showed the Scouts the MB book I had for it and they admitted they did none of the requirements. The camp is cheating the Scouts out of the opportunity to learn a skill, an opportunity their parents paid for. Last year one of my Scouts took Archeology MB. Req. 8 says they need to spend 8 hours on an Archeological site. The camp staff took that to mean they should take a large bowl filled with dirt and bury a few objects in it such as a neckerchief slide, coin and old bottle cap and then let the boys stick their hand in the bowl and pull something out and identify it! I watched this myself and couldn't believe it.

"So there really was an appeal?" "In a word, yes. " Well, there were so many saying it was a non-existant appeal, a hoax, that there was no way an appeal could take this long, that there was NO appeal!, even called it "a giant April Fools Prank", that "no record exists of it anywhere, except in peoples mind". I could go on but you get the idea. Then some attacked the Scout, his mom and the people who knew what was going on and offered insight. Some of the things suggested about the Scout were unacceptable, and very sad. Especially coming from a bunch of Scouters who should be dedicated to helping boys, not tearing them down with mean spirited comments. Do you think that maybe the Scout was reading your comments too?! Or overhearing the discussions his parents surely had over your comments about their son?! Some of you should really take a close look at how harmful your words were to those involved. Then maybe you should think about reviewing the Scout Oath and Law and how they apply in your daily lives.

So there really was an appeal?

Well evmori again here you go with the accusations about this young man. I have spoken with the SM a few times about this situation (as recently as a few weeks ago) and he has never said that the reason was due to a serious disciplinary issue. I also think the flaming is detrimental to this forum so I've found another place share ideas about Scouting.

I thought this thread was about the appeal process that one Scout was going through. I guess there's no need for me to post here again since I'm not interested in playing the pie game or keeping a thread going just as a joke.

I'm sure it is their policy.

DYB-Mike stated: "Can you be gay and atheist and still be an Eagle Scout? (That should keep things going for a while) YIS Mike " Mike, is this an attempt at humor or are you insinuating something? This thread is about one Scout and his efforts at earning Eagle. Your attempt to turn this into something else is sad. I have found many of the comments here to be rude and mean spirited and I'm not the only one who thinks this. In the past I've encouraged mdsummer to share with us the outcome of this situation but now I would advise her not to. She monitors this thread but will not post because of the treatment by some members here. I've seen this in the past too. I recall one mom, a new member who joined to asking a simple question about uniforms. By the time some senior members got done belittling her she swore she would never post again. How sad it is for a bunch of "Scouters" to act so rude. ev, you complain about second hand information but I'm sure that had you asked mdsummer she would have been willing to send you all the documentation she has just as she has to myself and others. nldscout, you stated that you find it amazing that I could speak with someone from National. Have you ever called them? Does this mean I'm lying because you're amazed? I guess so since according to you there is NO appeal, a position that mdsummer and the SM involved with both disagree with you on! (ev, that's first hand information to me, but of course it's second hand to you) Of course you give no support to your statement. and on the other side; ljnrsu said "I also have had recent contact with mdsummer but refrained from posting. There are posters that dont believe what I post is the truth or factual so I havent bothered posting additional info. Twocubdad, ev, among others has without saying it outright called me a liar and a perpetrator of a hoax. Based on what? Preconceived ideas of how long appeals should take. Prior experience that doesnt reflect Nationals current appeals procedures." I agree with refraining from future posts. For those that want to know the facts please review the posts from linjsru and myself. For those of you who are intent on flaming, help yourself. You only show how little you reflect the values of Scouting.

Well Ed, I could answer every one of your questions but I won't because there is not an answer I could give you that would satisfy you. No wonder those who have insight into this situation have stopped posting.

If you think it's OK to cook with alcohol on a Scout trip then maybe we can have special brownies for dessert!

I had a discussion with my son the other day who was complaining about a boy in the troop whom he called a "Know it all". I told him that we should be grateful for "Know It Alls". Without them where would we go when need to know something since neither one of use know everything?! Fact is I know the SM. I have not brought this up with him since I don't feel it's my place to do so. However during a conversation we had a few weeks ago he mentioned the appeal and the fact that it was still unresolved. Fact is that I spoke with Michael Lovecchio from National to ask a general question about the process without mentioning names. He asked me if this was about Justin with out me ever using the Scout's name. I figure he's been getting calls on this. He told me to call Council. Fact is I've spoke with mdsummer on more than one occasion about the appeal and we've all read about it here. Fact is that mdsummer told me recently that the issue has been returned to Council. Fact is this appeal has been mentioned to me by three different people, the SM, the mom and National. I believe (and this is just an opinion as opposed to the above information which is all fact) that the new regs. on defining "Active" has something to do with why this is taking so long. Now who's lying? The SM, mdsummer or me?

evmori, Just because you know nothing doesn't mean nothing's happening!

Bring it to the SM's attention, that way he'll know about it and it won't happen again. Most SMs want to do what's right and follow the rules (even if they don't make sense sometimes). Worst thing you could do is to bypass the unit leader and complain to District or Council! If you did the SM would probably get a call from the UC saying "Hey you know you're not suppose to do Laser Tag right?", then they would talk about the SOB that called and turned the SM in!

I just dealt with a very similar situation a few weeks ago. Scout A tells several Scouts he has pot on him and shows one of them what appears to be pot. Problem was none of the other Scouts would tell the adults. A month after the event one brave Scout comes forward and we have a discussion. Here's how I handled it: 1. Phone call to CC and COR to advise. 2. Interviewed every Scout who's name came up in relation to the incident except Scout A. All Scout were told the discussion was confidential and that they were not in trouble. 3. After interviews it appears that Scout A could have been just boasting since no one actual saw him light up. 4. Scout A is called in for a SMC, he denies everything. he is told in no uncertain terms that this behavior is unacceptable and there will be no second chances. 5. Entire troop gets a talking to about our code of conduct and that it is unacceptable to allow something like this to go unreported for over a month and that they are expected to come forward when they see something going on that is wrong. 6. Troop issues a 10 point Guideline and Expectations that each Scout and parent must review, sign and turn in. This covers such things as drugs, alcohol, hazing, bullying, etc., a very in depth document. Part one discusses how the Scouts are expected to live up to the Ideas of Scouting and describes them. 7. Scout A is moved to another patrol and buddied up with an older Scout whom I trust and will keep an eye on him. the move also removes Scout A from his PL job. 8. I report to the committee the situation and how I handled it. I hope I handled it effectively, time will tell.(This message has been edited by Eagle732)