Eagle732

After being disappointed time and time again we now do a First Year Camper (FYC) program ourselves. I usually have one of our young Eagle Scout ASMs run the program. The camp runs a program which we hook up with for special programing like FYC boating, swimming, rifle, etc. where the facility is open for the new campers only. However all the advancement instruction is done by us. We realized that the instruction at camp was not tailored to our guys who had advanced further then most, but instead geared to the group, which is understandable. We also found that the skills were not retained for even a short time, it seemed like a lot of show it once and sign off was going on. I have also noticed that many of the youngest staffers were assigned to FYC program, I think some more mature staffing would help here, but a guess resources are limited.

Sounds dangerous, but fun!

I'm not sure I agree with giving them a pass until FIrst Class. I think progressive discipline would be more effective. An example would be a Tenderfoot caught fibbing gets to have a discussion from the SM on being trustworthy, a Second Class Scout maybe gets to stand in front of the troop and hold a discussion with his peers on trustworthiness, a First Class Scout maybe gets to stand before the PLC and discuss why he was not trustworthy, etc. An Eagle before his EBOR might be asked to come back in 6 months with evidence that he understands what he did wrong and proof that he has done what he can to correct the situation before being awarded Eagle. Of course the SM would need to weigh the seriousness of each infraction and balance the discipline.

Calico, I think it's a learning process. They don't come to us knowing the Scout Law, we teach them. They might have a basic understanding of right and wrong, and I underscore "Might". Some boys come to us with lots of baggage, broken homes, abusive parents, low income, etc. We can only work with what we are presented with in a boy and hopefully improve from there. This thread was not suppose to be about my example, that was put out there to start the discussion on how do deal with lying. I'd still like to discuss lying in general. Sometimes it's the simple things like a Scout signing up for a camping trip and then canceling at the last minute using a bogus reason. Sometimes its a more serious lie. I have heard from other SMs in my area with boys who have plagiarized Eagle projects and falsifying blue cards for MBs. How do we deal with this type of lying, especially without the support of our District, Council and BSA? Turn one of these boys down for Eagle and it will eventually be overturned no matter what the facts.

Actually it does help, thank you. I too remember the days of the Neighborhood Commissioner, a gentleman who we, as Scouts knew and respected. I also remember that my parents would have never cleared the path to Eagle for me, they allowed me to do it myself. Even though in those days it wasn't a "Leadership" project but just a service project and not near the hours needed today. I think it all goes back to the the way kids are raised today. Now days parents defend their kids no matter what they do. I've had parents take their kids out of our troop because the Scout didn't get signed off on a requirement when they thought he should. Didn't matter they didn't know the skill.

What one person calls discrimination another will call membership requirements. Depends on your view; whether you're outside looking in or inside looking out.

True, Scouts don't start off trustworthy, hopefully the program works and we do our jobs as adult leaders and they grow into living the Ideals of Scouting. But what do you do when things go the other way? Instead of becoming a good Scout they learn to manipulate the system to get what they want? And then the system rewards their behavior by granting them what they want more than anything else, even more than their own honor and dignity? The ramifications run deep. Not only is this detrimental to the Scout in the long run but it hurts others around him. The Scouts see this someone who got away with it, as this young man has bragged about. My leaders see the hypocrisy of it all. Why bother with helping a program that has no standards? And if I was not so committed to the program I would just throw in the towel too.

Yep, that was all done immediately. No one cared. Sad thing is I had a Life Scout with 21 MBs and a project scheduled that totally lost interest during this fiasco. When I asked why he told me he didn't think Eagle was worth much. This Scout is in the military today and doing very well and I'm very proud of him.

I thought maybe we could discuss how we deal with lying what we can do to help Scouts live up to the Scout Law, you Trustworthy and all that. I should know better. Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. Albert Einstein

Calico, "Was his project approved before the fundraising was done? Then what further approval from the SM does he need to raise funds?" The project was not approved before fundraising was done. The SM, CC and COR all have to sign off on a money earning application, none did. "How do you "know" the money didn't go to the project? Have you seen an accounting of the funds?" His initial concept of the project stated a certain small amount of money for materials. The money raised was considerably more. Since he was no longer a member of our unit I have no way of seeing the final accounting. However I do know the head of the benefitting organization well and have had enough discussions with him to have an understanding of what went into the project. "The parents had to have had some kind of input and involvement" The parents were the biggest problem, I believe they pushed the scout into doing things he probably wouldn't have done otherwise. The BO head was about fed up with dad's pushing on them to sign off on the project even though the scout did not complete the entire project as outlined in the workbook. Hope this clears things up "Devils Advocate". This example was put out to start the discussion on lying. Now I'm defending myself? Geez! I'm starting to wonder why I even continue to be a SM.

In my example of lying the Eagle candidate was expected to turn the money over to the benefiting organization because that is our District (and I assume Council) policy. We did in fact take the money from the one case we knew of at the time and turn it over. The other cases came to light after he moved on. I guess if the money came from a few donors you could return it directly but it's not practical or maybe even possible if the money was earned by, for example, a car wash. Upon learning that he was in the process of transferring I called the new SM and advised him that the Scout was having problems with us without being specific, and that if he wanted more information I would be happy to provide it, they were not. Is it common for Scouts to bail out of a unit instead of answering for their mistakes? As a kid in Scouts in the 60's I would have never thought of doing something like this, times sure have changed!

In the other thread we were discussing a great big old whopper of a lie. Have you ever had a Scout or leader lie or keep the truth from you? How do you handle it? My own policy with Scouts is that if you screw up (and they all do sooner or later) and you come to me and are honest about it then the consequences are far less than if I find out about it through others. I expect that the Scout who screws up makes an honest apology and does what he can to right the wrong. How he does that is up to him. All my Scouts know how I feel and seem to be willing to go along with it. However I had one scout lie repeatedly about fundraising for his Eagle project, On four occasions that I know of, he solicited funds without approval or knowledge of the SM and did not spend the money on his project. I can only assume where the money went but I know it did not go to his project. We made it clear that he would have to make amends for his actions by turning the money over to the benefiting organization and starting over on his fundraising, this time with proper approvals. He instead chose to leave the troop for a unit that didn't care and is now an Eagle even though he lied, cheated and stole money.

007, Seems like the debate has been pretty honest so far. Touc asked for our opinions, I offered mine. Mine is an honest opinion. So why shut down the thread? I don't agree with what he has done but I think the discussion has some merit. I don't see anyone else being disrespectful or dishonest.(This message has been edited by Eagle732)

Touc, You lie and you are selfish by your own anonymous admission so no you're not a good, moral, well mannered role model. Now if you were honest with your SM, CC and COR maybe I would have some respect for you but what I see is someone willing to lie and cheat the system because it suits you and it's easier that standing up for what you believe in. I have no respect for you, not because you are gay, but because you are a lier. And we also need to address the word "discrimination" in the context of this thread. BSA chooses who can be members and who can't. They stood up for what they believe in and took the hit for it as you noted with various actions that were taken against them. You chose to lie so you could have your way dispite the rules. They accepted the hits and held to their beliefs all the way to the SCOTUS. The result is that BSA gets to choose who can belong to their organization. You can call this discrimination in the same way as most organizations set membership requirements. I joined the Sons of the American Revolution but only after I proved I was a descendant of a Rev War soldier, I tried to join the Sons of the Confederacy but could not prove a descendant from the South so I was not allowed to join. Was I discriminated against? Well I guess you could say so but in reality I just didn't meet the joining requirements. You do not meet BSA's adult membership requirements therefore you should be dropped from the roles.(This message has been edited by Eagle732)

Yes, military too! And if we had to pay these people what they were worth we couldn't afford it!

"Well I can tell you, running the BSA is not cheap. Yeah you got to pay pro's salaries. But I can tell you from expereince, it doesn't cut it. I know folks who left BSA to go to the private sector, and with their KSAs from working with the BSA they have doubled, and in one case tripled, their salary." Yea, lots of jobs out there that don't pay people what they deserve such as teachers, firefighters, police officers, etc. People take these jobs because they want to help others, not for the money.

So how many hours should an Eagle project be? An actual number, not "enough to show leadership". Our District's guidelines are 200 hours is a goal.

Water down Lifesaving, now that's funny! Wilderness First Aid instead of Lifesaving is a great idea. It would need to be more available. I wouldn't want to see it taught at summer camp where Scouts are signed off after 4 hours of instruction. (I don't allow our Scouts to take First Aid MB at camp, we teach it in house. It's too important to sign off after a few hours of instruction). All of my Scouts have Swimming MB but most take E.P. because it's easier. They would be better off taking Lifesaving in my opinion. Lifesaving MB holders becoming a victim during a rescue? Well they teach how not to be a victim as part of the training. Of course it's possible but one could also become a victim during any type of rescue (fire, electrocution, etc.). Rescue is a dangerous business (from a 28 year professional firefighter, paramedic).

Bring back Swimming and Lifesaving MB only for Eagle, no alternate MBs! I see boys in my troop taking Emergency Preparedness because it's easier than Lifesaving, not because they can't swim. Swimming and Lifesaving are important skill that all Scouts should learn.

Yep, that's probably SOP for most councils. We have over 700 Cubs each year and we try to buy lots of new stuff for next years camp before the end of the current year. Council controls the money with POs required for all expenditures and questions everything. The process is burdensome and the reason why they can't keep a Camp Director for more than 2 years.

Don't know about training but in our council Cub Scout Day Camps give back 30%. Seems like a lot of money for little or no support.

When I was CM I wouldn't allow "Dump and Run" for pack or den activities with the exception of the Web dens. That I left up to the discretion of the WDLs. I also started going down the "Nobody wants to help" road but I fixed it easy enough. During the annual planning meeting we decided on activities for the year along with the lead person for the event. No lead volunteer, no activity. I stuck to it and after canceling a camping trip they knew I meant business. Parents have to understand that the Cub program is a family oriented program. When I signed up new kids we formed dens and expected one DL, ADL and MC from each den. The remaining parents helped with running events. I never had to tell an entire group of new boys that if their parents didn't step up to fill the required positions then they would not be part of this pack, but I was prepared to do it. Now we did work with the new parents and showed them how easy it was to be a DL, you know, 1 hour a week, just follow the book, etc. By enforcing these policies we ended up with a group of parents that all knew they were expected to help and as new ones came in they saw what was expected and just followed along. It was a lot harder to change the course than to keep things on course.

Had a Scout who "needed" a position for advancement. We had elections and he didn't win a PL job. SPL didn't appoint him to a job so he came to me (SM) and asked for a job. My reply "well there's a Cub Pack down the road and Den Chief counts as a POR, it either that or learn to bugle". Scout is now a DC, one of the most important jobs for maintaining troop membership. And I'm happy that he took the initiative, he could have sat it out and waited until next election. Brownie points for this next SMC!(This message has been edited by Eagle732)

Al, I just pulled all the Member I.D. numbers for my unit and checked their training records. All seem to be accurate and up to date. It's easy if you have the I.D. numbers but you can also do it in the Advanced Search mode with some basic information (name, email, city, state).

"So, a Pack or a Troop requires Two Deep Leadership; and a Patrol should be Zero Deep Leadership." No, a patrol has youth leadership in the form of a Patrol Leader and his assistant. Our patrols are encouraged and do patrol outings. A typical outing would be to hike about 2 miles from our meeting place to a secluded 100 acre wood site which we have permission to use for an over night camp out. No adult leaders. Permission slips and a SM approved plan required.