Eagle732

I hate to loose any boy, seems like a failure on my part. However, years of experience have shown me that sometimes you have to loose one to keep it from negatively effecting the entire troop. I refuse to have boys quite because of a disruptive boy that doesn't want to be a member of the troop anyway. My position is all Scouts (and adult leaders) live by the Scout Oath and Law. No exceptions. We shall see at the next troop meeting.

Well it took mom almost a week but she finally got around to demanding TT be allowed to return to his patrol or TT will quit!

Barn, unless you have wheeled equipment, then you might want a ramp.

26a. (an addition to 26) Where is the PIA parent going? (He's usually the parent of the Web mentioned in #26) Mike, yes tongue in cheek and meant to be funny. Thing is what makes it funny is there is some (or maybe a whole lot of) truth in it.

26a. (an addition to 26) Where is the PIA parent going? (He's usually the parent of the Web mentioned in #26) Mike, yes tongue in cheek and meant to be funny. Thing is what makes it funny is there is some (or maybe a whole lot of) truth in it.

Neil, I've never dealt with the money end of a NYLT course, only volunteered. I do know that the real money maker for our council is Cub Scout Day Camp. For 8 years I have served on staff at the highest level on one of the largest day camps in the country with over 800 cubs in attendance. Council really screams if they don't get their 30%. They do not provide the facility or any other support except a very cumbersome money management system. Never confuse the business side of Scouting with the boy side. Grousing: To complain or grumble (Webster) No grousing here, just trying to make a point, which I'm done doing now.

Why was mom involved? Because her little TT complained to her that the SPL moved him and that little TT can do no wrong. She cornered the SPL while the troop was putting away camping gear and cleaning up after the trip (while TT was goofing off instead of helping). I could have intervened but thought I would see how it played out. An example of making the right decision, not the easy decision. I was very impressed!

Brent, I am aware of the difference between TLT and NYLT, I have been an instructor for NYLT. I am also aware that our Council (like most I assume) skims 30% off the top, so isn't it nice that they can make it a part of the requirements. I also know that many families can't afford it and that units have limited resources too. We send the SPL or ASPL each year and pay $100 or half the cost. My comments are not a selfish response to my own unit's needs but are in consideration of other units. If we want to make requirements lets not tie them to expensive programs. Maybe next will be a certain percentage of adult leaders complete Wood Badge. My unit, if we decide to participate, will be a Gold unit. We already do, or can easily do all that is required. I still believe there is a better way.

On another tread we've been discussing rating units as Gold, Silver or Bronze. This new rating system does not reflect the effectiveness of a unit and its program, actions reflect it. So I was very pleased and proud of my 15 year old, two term SPL when he handled a problem during last weekends camping trip. A several weeks ago Timmy Tenderfoot, age 12, wanted to go to the Volcano Patrol which was has most of our new scouts. Since that time he has not listened to the direction of the PL who is a year younger than him and has generally been disruptive whenever he gets the chance. During the last camping trip TT decided to take the box of cereal that was for breakfast, fill it with milk and eat from the box (with a fork no less!) before some of the boys had eaten, despite the PL's request not to. Long story, short. PL goes to SPL. SPL goes to the PL of the Shark Patrol which is a group of older scouts, and requests that they take TT as a member. All agree and TT is told by the SPL he is now with the older boys and will listen and do as directed by the very large and older PL. TT complains and threatens to quit but SPL holds his ground. Upon returning from the camping trip I see TT's mom and the SPL talking. Afterwards I ask SPL how the discussion with Mom went. Apparently TT complained to Mom and she let the SPL know in no uncertain terms that she feels TT should not be moved to the Shark Patrol. SPL's reply was that TT needs more supervision from an older scout who he will listen to and that he has not listened to the younger PL and has been disruptive. SPL says TT will be a member of the Shark Patrol and that he (SPL) will review TT's behavior in a few months and re-evaluate. This is his (SPLs) decision and he is sticking to it. SPL asks if I think he did the right thing, my response was YES!!!! This is what Scouting is all about. Maybe this leadership thing is really sinking in.

Maybe if we want to help unit's we should look at some other things such as: A unit has a plan in place that actually makes sure the Scouts who can't afford to camp get to go? 3 years ago I made the commitment to never loose a boy because his parents can't afford Scouting, we now have boys that would not be in Scouting if it wasn't for "outside the box" fundraising dedicated to these boys. Now we have to spend $200 on NYLT instead of sending a boy to summer camp. A troop has a year round program for camping AND MEETINGS? A year round program use to be real important, it use to keep boys involved. A troop has enough adult leadership (even if they don't have "This is Scouting" and "Fast Start" training) that are willing to spend a weekend with the boys and that they didn't have to cancel any camping trips because of no two deep leadership? And if we really want to help units maybe we should have a UC sit down with the unit leadership and review where the unit is and how they can make real improvements, help them implement the improvements, and assist where needed IN PRIVATE. Instead it seems we are creating a grading system for units that will be used by parents (who think a good troop is an adult lead, perfectly organized troop) to decide where their kids will go, which is a lot easier than going out and visiting troops. Just my opinion as a SM (This message has been edited by Eagle732)(This message has been edited by Eagle732)(This message has been edited by Eagle732)

Neil, A couple of points. What I consider a small unit is relative to other units in our area not the national average. We have 18 boys. Most others have 50 to 100 boys. Our unit suffered from a complete lack of effort to recruit for several years along with virtually no program. All involved with the troop agree. This is what I inherited 3 years ago. Breaking the trend of boys going elsewhere has proven difficult considering brothers and friends of eligible boys are already with another units. We started turning the corner last year with 6 Webs joining, 5 have stayed the year and are advancing. We have also averaged 1 Eagle per year for the last three years. If you would like to see what we're about visit our website at www.troop400delta.com I don't disagree that a troop could meet Bronze or even Silver fairly easy depending on where the moving target is for the current year. I can ask my MCs take the training for max points, they would gladly do it. We can get max points for short and long term camping, patrol method (our PLC meets after every meeting), service projects, budget, and COHs easy. Without having the stats in front of me we will be at least at Silver for advancement and retention. I understand you defending your program but I notice that you did not address my three summery points which were: "NYLT costs $200 bucks around here (of which $75 goes to council!!!!), I do TLT twice a year, after each troop election instead, and I don't charge anything!" Only Silver for that effort. "I think a unit could have an excellent program and not even qualify for Bronze." I still do. And my main point was: "Biggest problem I see with this is that Web parents will look only at Gold Award troops compounding the problems small troops are having." The last point is my biggest concern. You also seem to believe that Web recruitment is solely up to the individual troop. It is true that units decide when and how to recruit (and we do an awesome Web invite program at our own private 58 acre campground which includes canoeing and kayaking) but we currently have a Web 2 dry spell with the few packs we have in this area. Add to that the games played by WDLs trying to influence their entire den to go where the WDL decides is best and the perpetuation of the Feeder Pack mentality and you see this is largely out of our hands. We are working towards a position where we don't need Webs at all to survive as a troop.

Neil, I listened to the webinar and have reviewed the score sheet and FAQS. As a SM for a small unit I have some concerns. Retention: It doesn't take loosing very many boys for a small unit to fall below 76 or 85%. Recruit 5 Webs for gold. We'd be lucky to get 5 Webs, even 2. How about other new members? No category for units reaching out to new non-Web. boys? A unit recruits 10 new kids, none are Webs? Minus 200 points. Trained leadership: Does my committee really need to have "This is Scouting" and "Fast Start" training? I doubt my troop's secretary, and treasurer think so. I'm happy they just show up to committee meetings since they all have jobs, families and other obligations. NYLT costs $200 bucks around here (of which $75 goes to council!!!!), I do TLT twice a year, after each troop election instead, and I don't charge anything! I think a unit could have an excellent program and not even qualify for Bronze. Biggest problem I see with this is that Web parents will look only at Gold Award troops compounding the problems small troops are having. Instead of going through all of this I would rather have the District evaluate units and work with them on improving on a one one basis without all the bling. Our committee will discuss if we are even going to participate in this program. I assume it's not mandatory?

Cubmaster Randy has a thorough check list for evaluating troops. However it leaves out the a few important considerations that most Scouts and parents have at the top of their list of reasons, so I'll add to Randy's list. 26. Where is the unpopular Cub going? Where ever that is, we're not going there! 27. Where does the WDL say we should go? Then that's where we should all go!

Bando, In your friends case that seems to be incompetence on the part of the school board and maybe that they don't see the value of Eagle projects. If that school was in my area I would expect an apology and a commitment by the school to relocate and restore the project. If they didn't I would discourage any future projects be done there. There are lots of organizations that really appreciate an Eagle project but maybe some don't.

"I am not saying that you are wrong, but I would hope some background checks are done with IH's and certain key leaders(scouts execs) though they may be considered not direct contact." Does the IH fill out an application and/or go through a background check? I don't think so since there's no code on the adult application for the IH. Scout execs are employees of the Council, they are in a whole different ball game.

Every kid in this area gets a drug awareness program every year through school. I would think most school systems do the same thing. Discuss the program at the dinner table and talk about the dangers, then they get signed off.

"So what happens if anything to a chartered scout unit, when its CO (a church) installs a new minister (the unit IH) who happens to be gay?" Nothing. He /she doesn't fill out an application, there's not even a code for IH. How would BSA even know if they were gay? When a unit recharters the IH's name is on that but BSA knows nothing about that person. They are not a direct contact person so no background check is done. I recently had an interesting conversation with a gay co-worker about Scouting. He was aware of BSA's position on gays. I explained to him that units are run by the unit leaders under the guidance of the charter organization which is kind of like a franchise. We run the store but BSA retains the right to make some of the rules. I also explained that in reality, as the unit leader (SM), I don't know or care if any of my leaders are gay. We never discuss it, we're too busy trying to run a quality program. Now if someone wants to make an issue to prove a point then I guess BSA would not approve their application. If that's the case then maybe the leader is in it for the wrong reason.

My Advancement Chair went to both Scout Shops in our area and could not get the Carpentry MB patches, they are on backorder. National will have to make more, they can't not provide a MB to a Scout that earned it. Or can they?

"does that excuse the things he admits he did and approved? Waterboarding for instance? " IMO no excuse needed.

Our troop is somewhere between #1 and #2, probably closer to #1 but not there yet!

No misunderstanding. District policy is that no flyers from units go directly to schools. If you want a flyer you design it and submit it to the DE. He contacts the school board and they approve or disapprove. If approved the DE makes copies and takes them to the school. The reason for this is: 1. to limit the amount of flyers going home (imagine if some units wanted to send something home every week). 2. Make sure that the subject is approved (no mention of shooting sports). 3. To protect the relationship the district has with the schools (which is extremely good). What can the DE do if I don't play nice? I don't know but I understand why they do it. In fact I taught this policy as part of the recruiting segment of the Cubmaster Specific training for years.

"Our Troop is as large as we need or want it to be. We are currently helping our neighboring troop who has had a hard time growing, improve their program, so that both our troops offer excellent programs, and scouts will be as happy to go to their troop as ours." Not much of that Scout Spirit around here. There's two troops within 12 miles of here with membership of at least 80 each. There's also 3 troops with less than 16 scouts. I've never heard of anyone from the mega troops offering to help. I'd like them to just send me contact info on the ones they loose. Maybe I'll ask and see what kind of answer I get.

The only access to 6th graders I have at this time is through my new scouts. No school access at this time, this is strictly controlled by the DE. You can't even send a flyer home without prior review and approval by the DE. I'll have to work on establishing a connection somehow.

"Do your guys really want to recruit?""Do they want to grow the troop?" Well I asked my son this very question yesterday and he said he kinda likes going on camping trips with 4 other scouts (we've had only 5 boys on the last 2 camping trips). My question to him was what happens when it only 2 or 3 on a trip and only one adult willing to go? They don't understand the ramifications and that it becomes harder to recruit in a failing troop. I will discuss this and explain it in detail with them. "Are they ready, willing, and able to take on a bunch of guys without experience?" Our guys are very willing to work with new scouts. I think one of the reasons why is that the higher ranked scouts (Star and above) have sign off privileges. They take that privilege seriously and do well with making the decision on when a scout has met a requirement. "Are the willing to go through that initial phase with lots of enthusiasm, but immature outbursts?" "Do they look after the troops newer guys right now as if they were younger brothers who they like?" I have always been impresses with how our guys take the new ones under their wing. Other adults have commented the same. I've seen in other troops what you describe, older scouts not wanting to be bothered with the new ones. Our guys seem to enjoy helping the new ones learn. This is the very reason why my son wanted to join this troop. The current situation is not that boys are visiting and not joining, in fact if we can get a boy to visit he usually joins, the problem is that we can't get them to come at all. Seems like the boys need to decide if they want to commit to growing the troop. How do I get them to buy in to this?

MSR Wisperlite. I've got one that's over 30 years old and I let our Scouts use it on backpacking trips, it still works fine. Scouts need to be instructed in the proper use. Fuel is stored in the bottle which can remain attached to the burner during the trip. Adult supervision is required for liquid fuels.