eagle-pete

New to scouts Welcome to the forums First - just an observation, not a criticism... you may want to consider registering under another user name. Assuming you continue on the forums, you won't be "New to scouts" for long. Now as for your den dilemmas - BSA recommends dens with 6 to 8 Cubs. This will help greatly with your rowdy boys. You will need 2 things. Parents who are willing to help and meeting places to accomodate the dens. To successfully recruit parents to help with Cub Scouts requires a little more than putting out a call for volunteers. Parents need to be properly introduced in the Cub program. They need to have a light orientation and overview of Cub Scouting. You will then need to cultivate relationships with the parents. Instead of asking them to volunteer for generic, non-specific jobs, first ask for some simple help with a den meeting. They can help with the gathering activity or an opening ceremony; not take on the job of Den Leader just yet. This has 2 benefits. It allows them to become familiar with the program in a less daunting way, and it allows you to get to know the parents so you can make better choices for future Den Leaders and Assistant Den Leaders. Once parents are familiar and comfortable with the program and leaders, getting their cooperation is far easier. Your meeting places for den meetings does not have to be restricted to the facility provided by your Chartered Organization. That facility should be used for the pack meetings. Den Meetings can be held in a leader's home, in a back yard, in a family room, wherever you can meet with 6 to 8 boys (following guidelines in the Guide to Safe Scouting, of course). To answer your question about the requirements for leaders, the Guide to Safe Scouting states that, "One-on-one contact between adults and youth members is not permitted." Therefore, you will need a Den Leader with at least one Assistant Den Leader for anytime you meet with the boys. When an Assistant is not available ask a parent to help. This is a requirement, not a recommendation. There are no exceptions. In addition to smaller dens, a well organized den meeting also goes a long way with keeping boys attentive, out of trouble, and under control. It also keeps the boys interested and makes sure they have fun, which, in my opinion, is the best part of Cub Scouting! Oh, and be sure to get any new leaders you bring on to Fast Start, New Leader Essentials, and Leader Specific training as soon as possible. Hope this helps. Good Luck. Eagle Pete(This message has been edited by eagle-pete)

"...and he drove with his team of 5 over 100 miles. Guess what? NONE of those Scouters showed up." I donno, I am just shooting in the dark, but couln''t you simply require a deposit of, say $20, refundable at the end of the training class? Explain that this will cover expenses for the course incase of no-shows. I think they might want to show up to get their $20 back. If not, at least the gas is covered. Just a thought Eagle Pete

GaHillBilly One thing to consider is no training in BSA is intended to churn out perfectly ran troops all staffed with model leaders who all come to every scout meeting with their shirts all neatly pressed and with perfect boys all earning their Eagle Scout by age 16. This would be an unrealistic expectation, both from BSA and from Scouters. What we do want Scout Leaders to get from trainings is (1) the "Scouting Spirit". A special enthusiasm unique to Scouting. (2) A better understanding of how the program is intended to be run. There are many times in my own troop where we must customize the program to our specific boys, but always keeping in the forefront the Aims and Methods, and what our objectives are. (3) A vision. Without a vision, we don''t really know where we are going. Trainings allow us to formulate that vision into something that makes sense for our troop and for what we want to accomplish. You''re never going to take a course syllabus or a BSA handbook and sit the boys down and say, "It says here that we need to use the ''patrol method''", and then expect the boys (or leaders for that matter) to fall in lockstep with the BSA''s way of doing things. Trainings do, however, help us get a better understanding of the program, formulate our vision, and come to the troop with an enthusiasm for the program. And if we''re really lucky, the leaders and boys in our unit will catch the vision, too. Nothing is more satisfying to me than to have a boy come up from Webelos into our troop and go on his first camp with us. This was a boy who, for whatever reason, wasn''t participating all that much in the Cubs and Webelos programs. He came home saying, "Man, that was fun!", full of enthusiasm and ready for more. There''s the proof that tells me I am working the program and I am doing something that is having a positive effect on the boys. What other measurement of success do we need? Eagle Pete

A long time ago in a galaxy far, far away while serving as Cubmaster, I was working with the Scoutmaster to select, prepare, and train a fine young man to be our Den Chief. At the time, I could not find anywhere where a Den Chief Training was being held. I seem to recall on occasion seeing Den Chief trainings offered at what used to be called JLT (now NYLT). Although our council is offering NYLT I did not see anything in the description of the course that any Den Chief training was being offered. My wife (Den Leader) was recently told that she will be getting a new Cub Scout Den Chief so we contacted the Scoutmaster. He said he was not even aware there were any materials for Den Chief trainings offered and did not know how to train the new Den Chief. I have offered to find out some information for the Scoutmaster. Well, before you start saying "Get ready to train the Den Chief yourself, Pete" I was just wondering if anyone has seen a formal Den Chief training out there. How are your Den Chiefs getting trained? Eagle Pete

Pack121Scouter "Would any of you want this parent as a leader in YOUR Pack?" Well, not at first glance, although I suspect there may be more to this story. First of all, as a rule, I would not turn boys away from my pack if I were the Cubmaster. If it is a question of leadership and resources, well, new boys mean new parents who can be recruited as leaders, right? I am also sort of confused about your terminology. You do know there aren''t any patrols in Cub Scouting, right? I am going to assume you are referring to dens. If your dens currently have 13 cubs in each then I highly recommend splitting those into two dens a piece. The recommended size of a den is 6 to 8 boys. How many of these 13 member dens do you have? I can see why your pack is feeling like things are "full". As far as the irrate parent, if he is still interested in joining your pack, I would hold a meeting with the Cubmaster, Den Leader, and the Committee Chairman and invite the parent to the meeting. I would first try to resolve any issues he has before handing him an application to join Cub Scouting. Once everything is resolved I would give him the application and have him fill it out and sign it in front of the leaders, making sure he understands that the application he is signing is an agreement to be supportive of the pack and what this means. I would then tell him how he can handle any future disagreements by meeting with those leaders in that meeting. If he is no longer interested in joining your pack then, well, it probably is better that way. Eagle Pete

dasmith4 Welcome to the forums Great question. First of all, as far as policy, your Chartered Organization Representative in cooperation with your Pack Committee Chairman work together to determine the Chartered Organization''s policy on any fund raising. This means that any funds raised are entirely controlled, organized and distributed through the CO and your Pack Committee. You, as the Pack Treasurer, play a key role in this planning. You ensure that all funds are distributed according to the policies set forth by your Chartered Organization. A Pack Fund Raiser is, by definition, a fund raising effort for the entire pack. Individual boys can pay Den Dues and this is kept track of by the Den Leader, as far as which boys have paid their Den Dues. The Den Leader should turn in all dues from boys into the Pack Treasurer (you). I recommend that parents be made aware of the budgeting structure and policies of your pack. A parent should not expect that if Johnny sells $1000 worth of popcorn for the pack, that he should be entitled to 10 times more than another boy who only sold $100 since it is a pack fund raiser, not an individually based fund raiser. It may also be helpful to distribute to the parents a breakdown of where all the funds are going from a fund raiser. This way, they can see how each and every boy is benefiting from the fund raiser, regardless of their individual efforts. I agree with you on your philosophy regarding the boys learning to help pay their way and Help the Pack Go! This is crucial and helps Cub Scouts feel a part of the pack. I believe Den Dues are a sufficient tool to use to help promote this message. I also agree that boys should not feel an obligation to make up the difference toward a pack activity if they have fallen short in Den Dues. If a boy has not been able to pay their dues, this should be handled individually to find out the reason behind it, and then the Committee, parents, and the boy should all agree on a plan that works for everyone. No boy should feel they may be excluded from any activities if they haven''t paid their Den Dues. It also may be helpful during a fund raiser to keep parents informed as to where you are for your fund raising goals. If you are not quite where you need to be let the parents know that more effort may be necessary to reach your fund raising goals in order to go on x activity this summer. Then do some more promoting and encouragement to encourage their boys to Get out there and sell more popcorn! Hope this helps Eagle Pete

Agreed.. They likely were the wrong adult selected at the time, but they could be a reasonably decent Scout Leader... ...If only we could just get them to training! Eagle Pete

Fscouter I see your point here, and on principle I agree. However, I am on our Scout Committee over training and I can''t bring myself to start a mandatory training policy. Just the thought of it gives me a knot in my stomach. Each and every one of our Scouters, including myself, are volunteers. I can beg, plead, bribe, and can do all but force them to go to trainings. But the bottom line is I walked myself into training without coercion. I voluntarily got out my checkbook and paid for many of the trainings I''ve attended. I have sat in many training classes and chose for myself what, if anything, I would take from those presentations. I applied the principles taught in the units where I''ve served by my own volition and initiative. No one has ever, in all the years I have served as a Volunteer Scouter, forced me to do anything. I feel it is my moral obligation to afford the same choices to those Scouters with whom I serve. I have never served under coercion, why should they have to? Yes, we want the best leaders possible. Yes, we want to deliver the promise. As a Committee Member and a Wood Badge Trained Scouter I have taken upon myself some obligations to that effect. But the reality is I can only make absolutely certain that I am putting forth my best effort. Even Professional Scouters cannot make someone else do a good job. So you tell me... How can you make someone do something they do not want to do? (Will you please open your fist for me?) Even if we mandate training, will that really ensure a quality program? Perhaps (as OGE can, apparently, prove). However, I would submit that if you could take a unit with 100% trained leaders who did so voluntarily, and match that against a unit with 100% trained leaders who did so because they were forced to, you would likely see dramatic differences in morale, dedication, and program quality because people, in general, perform better when they willingly chose to serve. Eagle Pete

By the way, In Scouting there is no such position as a "Den Treasurer". There should be a Pack Treasurer on your pack committee. All funds should go through this individual, in which case the den that is guarding funds is not really following BSA budgeting procedure. If I was your Committee Chairman I would have a serious problem with that arrangement. Eagle Pete

n2cubfun Welcome to the forums. Strange - I''ve never heard of a den funding its own activities independent of the pack. You appear to have a den that doesn''t exactly follow the spirit of the BSA''s concept of Den -> Pack -> Chartered Organization. Ultimately, this will fall on the shoulders of the Chartered Organization Representative. As LongHaul keenly pointed out, monies brought into the pack, from whatever source, technically belongs to the Chartered Organization, although typically funds acquired by the pack stay in the pack. A den that organizes its own fund raising project is not legally entitled to keep that money. By definition, it belongs to the Chartered Organization. The real issue here, I believe, is where did the den receive any authorization to hold a fund raiser in the first place. According to BSA, the Chartered Organization must approve any and all fund raising efforts in the unit. This, of course, is still subject to Council approval as well, as scoutldr has rightly pointed out. I would venture to say that your Local Council may have concerns about a den in your pack independently raising funds, and then holding those funds separate, and inaccessible from the Chartered Organization. I would, frankly, be surprised if the Council approved such a project. So, the first question I would have is where did the den get their approvals, both to have a fund raiser, and to keep the funds they acquire in a separate account. If they did not get the required approvals for these, I believe they are obligated to turn over all their funs to the Chartered Organization. I did some looking into the question of a den maintaining their own checking account and, like you, I could find nothing that prevents them from doing so. However, keeping funds acquired by a fund raiser without approval is what I would question. Weather they keep it in a checking account, a drawer, or in the pocket of a Cub Scout is less of an issue. LongHaul is also correct to point out that this should be handled by your Committee Chair and Chartered Organization Representative (can you tell I hate using acronyms?). The Committee Member who is advising the Den Leader should probably direct his concerns to your Committee Chairman (or Cubmaster if a CC is not available). I would point out that, in my ever to be humble opinion, all fund raising should be done by the pack as a whole. One of the issues which I would be concerned with, as a Cubmaster, is when dens conduct fund raising independently how does that make other dens (boys) feel when one den is raising money and, presumably, using that for activities and outings, and other dens (boys) are not able to participate because they could not participate in the fund raising, and consequently do not have the money? What does this teach the boys about working together as a team, competition, haves and have nots? As a Cubmaster I learned to look at everything through the eyes of a boy. How would a boy perceive this? (And yes, they are smart enough to know what is going on. If the den leaders don''t believe it, they are being naive.) Eagle Pete

Hmmmm... According to the site which FScouter posted above (which comes from National)... "After he has earned the Wolf badge, a boy is encouraged to work on the 22 Wolf electives until he completes second grade (or turns 9 years old)." My interpretation is this can be BOTH grade and age dependant. This is not just LDS policy. This is BSA policy. Maybe I am slow, but I do not see how my original post conflicts with BSA policies. Please enlighten me. Eagle Pete

Lugnuts "And I thought the headaches would go away after I wrote the darn thing. lol" What headaches are you having? About your ticket item? or about the award? Eagle Pete

Boys who have completed first grade, or who are eight years old, are eligible to join the Wolf Den. At this point they begin earning the Wolf Badge. Boys who have completed second grade, or who are nine years old, are eligible to join the Bear Den. At this point they begin earning the Bear Badge. Once a boy turns nine years old, if he has not completed the Wolf Badge he can no longer work on the requirements for the Wolf Badge... only the Bear Badge. This keeps the boys in the same age group working on the same level and activities. Once a boy turns ten years old, if he has not completed the requirements for the Bear Badge or Wolf Badge he can no longer earn these awards. Boys who have completed the third grade, or who are ten years old and eligible to join the Webelos Den. At that point they may begin earning the Webelos Badge. The Wolf, Bear, and Webelos badges are earned while the boy is a member of the corresponding den for that award. Earning the badge does not constitute ranking. As for the specific awards you are working on... The requirements you are referring to should be earned during the age groups the boys are currently in for those ranks (i.e., Wolf eligible cubs should work on the Wolf requirements. Bear eligible cubs should work on the Bear requirements for this award, etc...). It is not necessary that the boys earn the badges to qualify for the awards you are working on. Just make sure they have met the age or grade level requirements for those ranks. Remember: Completed first grade or 8 yrs old = Wolf Completed second grade or 9 yrs old = Bear Completed third grade or 10 yrs old = Webelos Source: http://www.geocities.com/~pack215/requirements.html Hope this helps Eagle Pete(This message has been edited by eagle-pete)

Amen, John

By the way.. This horse has been beat before: http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=149289 Eagle Pete

CONGRATZ! Eagle Pete WE7-589 I used to be an eagle, and a good ol eagle too.

We had an "Old WB" member of our staff. He has not gone through Wood Badge for the 21st Century. Yes, our Course Director bent (broke?) that rule. If you don''t say anything, I won''t. Anyway, it was obvious he had never gone through Wood Badge for the 21st Century. Just like Eamonn says, he kept trying to compare the old course with the new to the extent of attempting to apply old WB methods to the new. It didn''t work. He eventually did get converted to 21st Century after some one-on-one''s with the ASM. But it would have been easier on him to just go through the new course. Yes, you will likely change critters and, yes, you have to pay for the course again. As for the beads, they''d have to pry them from my cold, dead hands before I gave them up... but it''s not so bad doing another ticket. Heck, I basically go through a simplified ticket process now for most of my goals anyway. It''d probably do me good. I think there is some good reason to the policy. Most Wood Badgers from the old course have not set foot on the Hill for many years (aside from some that have already staffed several courses). If for no other reason than a review of Wood Badge, it would be helpful I would think. And it only makes sense - You can hardly expect to deliver a training course that you have never taken yourself. Eagle Pete

Ok, I missunderstood then. My apologies. If, infact, your local council is allowing any participants to attend Wood Badge without Outdoor Leadership Skills then your council is not following National on Wood Badge requirements. You may want to point this out if you are in a position to do so. Eagle Pete

gwd-scouter I understand, but the Wood Badge pre-requisite is for all scout leaders, including Cub Leaders, to complete Outdoor Leadership Skills. So it appears your council is, in fact, following the National Wood Badge requirements. The reason for this is at Wood Badge you not only receive leadership skills as a Cub Scout leader, but for all families of Scouting. Therefore, National requires all scout leaders to complete Outdoor Leadership Skills regardless of their current scouting position prior to attending Wood Badge. As a Cub Scout leader at Wood Badge you are getting advanced training, not just the basic training required to wear the Trained strip. Hope this helps. Eagle Pete

gwd-scouter According to National, the following are the only qualifications I am aware of... "Qualifications Each Scouter invited to participate in Wood Badge training must have completed the basic training courses for their Scout position and completed the outdoor skills training programs appropriate for their Scouting position." source: http://www.scouting.org/nav/enter.jsp?s=xx&c=ds&terms=wood+badge I am not sure where you got the impression that Boy Scout leaders have any more pre-requisite requirements than any other scout leader. Eagle Pete

ScoutDadof5 Eamonn is exactly right. Wood Badge for the 21st Century has changed and is still evolving. He is also right to point out that, although we don''t want to place too much burden on staff in regards to time commitment, there are some things which can help the staff to come together. Our Course Director opted to adhere strictly to the Administrative Guide. We had three, and only three, staff development meetings. Other than that we had the first orientation meeting which he held 90 days out exactly as the guide states. We also had a staff dinner the night before the first "Work Day" on the Hill. In my non-CD, less experienced staffer opinion, I think that our staff could have benefited with some other less formal get-togethers in addition to the three staff developments. Also, as a Troop Guide, I would have appreciated some more meetings to go over Troop Guide stuff. It didn''t seem like there was that much Troop Guide training during the three developments. I know I don''t speak for everyone on our staff but, for me, I would have no problems committing to whatever the staff needed as far as time and preparation. It was an honor and privilege to serve on staff and none of it seemed burdensome to me. Eagle Pete(This message has been edited by eagle-pete)

According to the Cub Leader Handbook, the Pack Advancement Chair should "Help plan and conduct induction and advancement recognition ceremonies." It is the job of the Pack Committee to help plan and coordinate, with the cooperation of the Cubmaster, all recognition and advancement ceremonies. Also according the Cub Leader Handbook, "The badge should be ceremoniously presented as soon as possible at an upcoming Pack meeting." Note, the badge is presented as soon as possible, not just the card. The card is merely a record for the boy and his parents of what was earned and when. It is not the award. Also, the handbook specifically states to present these ceremonies during an upcoming Pack meeting. Do not wait until the Blue and Gold to have these presented. That is not the focus or purpose of a Blue and Gold Banquet. Scoutnut brings out a very good point. This is not for the convenience of the adults, but for the recognition of the boy. Let''s not lose sight of this. Eagle Pete

Neal On principle, I agree. However, these are young boys, some as young as 7 years old. The requirement does not say ''memorize'' the promise. Let''s remember the Cub Scout Motto, "Do Your Best". My interpretation is as long as the Cub does their best to recite the Cub Scout Promise, and then (and this is even more important, IMO) can explain what it means to the best of their ability, in my book the boy has passed, even if they leave out a word or two. It is much more important to me that they meet the first requirement, to "Learn" the Cub Scout Promise. The actual wording in the books for the Bobcat Requirements to pass off the Law of the Pack is, "Say the Law of the Pack. Tell what it means." So, although neither says to ''memorize'', the boy should be able to explain what either means. Eagle Pete

"They can have my lead based Philmont patch when they pry it from my cold dead hands." You mean when you die from the lead poisoning from the Philmont patch. Eagle Pete

I understand Wood Badge beads are non-toxic Eagle Pete