eagle-pete

Here is the key to your answer: "You may only count tenure for a position in which you are registered, and may not use the same tenure for more than one award." So, as you have pointed out, you cannot be registered for more than one position, and therefore, your tenure cannot be applied to both positions at the same time. Remember what the whole point is for these awards... to improve the training and quality of the leader (which is ultimately designed to improve the unit for the boys). This is not a race to see how fast and how many knots we can place on our uniform. Eagle Pete

For the beads, or for the boys? Have you caught the Wood Badge feeling? Scouting spirit's in the air. Like woodsmoke rising from a campfire, You can see it everywhere. It means more than a badge of wood That's hanging on a lace; For your Scouts lives are in your care, And you must set the pace. Will you seek to serve our brotherhood With your minds and with your hands? A ticket's more than just a good road map To Gilwell -- it's your plan! Can you teach and inspire, lead and give With a friendly and gentle way? For the men of tomorrow need guidance now As the youth in our troops today. Did the course give you a renewed outlook And motivate you to 'do your best?' The days and the years ahead will prove If you've truly met the test. So, work your ticket, with all of your might, And the reward is yours to enjoy. Not beads of wood . . . but the Good Lord saying You've been "important in the life of a boy." -- Stanley M. Latta Bowtied Bobwhites -- Gentlemen of Wood Badge and Scouting SE-583 - October 1992 Not so much a tool to use, but a concept - the most important thing I got out of Wood Badge was the importance of a boy and how to apply the Scouting Aims and Methods to that end. Eagle Pete

Well said, Eamonn The only thing I could comment on here refers to your last statement - "At times I feel a lot of Wood Badge participants focus too much on the Ticket or should I say fail to see the real meaning of the Ticket. Sure it's a big part of the course, but if it is seen as just doing or meeting five goals I feel we have missed the real point." My personal experience was interesting. I started out just like you said. I wrote my ticket and had the 5 goals to work on. It wasn't until AFTER I completed the ticket that I started to see the meaning of the ticket. Eagle Pete

Ok, but why should it be incorporated into Wood Badge, by default? I can totally relate with your camp comfort level, John. Maybe I am just way off, but I learned how to camp in adverse weather by camping in adverse weather. Maybe I am lucky, but I have had the fortune of working with some really knowledgeable and really great Scout Leaders who mentored me along and taught me how to camp. To be fair, these excellent Scout Leaders I referred to did go through the old Wood Badge course... but I also know, because I have asked them, where they learned most of their outdoor skills. To my surprise, it wasn't at Wood Badge (although they did learn a lot at Wood Badge). These guys got much their skills from their dads who passed their knowledge of the outdoors and scouting to their sons. I've told the story before, here.. about how I learned to tie a taut-line. It wasn't in a nice warm building, food all prepared and waiting, sheltered from the elements, calm and inviting. It was in a situation where I had to learn: outside, wind and rain beating on me, a family trying to stay dry and cook dinner, sun going down, and cold. Absolutely, I learned to tie a taut-line, and I got the tarp tied down.. At the time I was too flustered to realize the other lesson - that the outdoors will teach lessons which cannot be duplicated in a training course or even at a patrol meeting. THAT'S the Method! I am certainly not saying that you cannot provide training for outdoor skills. But I have also learned that boys will not internalize that training until they are put into situations where they begin to rely on the skills they were taught. Many times, it is no different with adults - I am one of those adults. Maybe I am being too idealistic, but I believe there is a time and place for learning outdoor skills, and there is a time to learn leadership. Wood Badge has not been watered down, the focus may have changed slightly, but the refining of the training is a good thing. I do see the need to teach outdoor skills to boys as well as the need for a Trained leader to acquire those skills as well. My question is, can those skills be provided by experienced leaders in many units? Are these people already available on the council, district, or unit levels and can they provide any training? Eagle Pete

John Not to worry. I am not, by any means, supportive of the notion that a Wood Badge ticket can be compared with an Eagle Project on any level. My whole intent and hope was to explore the topic and rouse some good discussion, which I believe we have. All the responses point to a main idea, which is that a participant and a boy scout both have disparate and differing objectives for the two projects. I am also in complete agreement with you regarding a scout working on an ELSP. I did enjoy exploring the topic and I have no idea what you are referring to with the sod surfing. Probably a good thing. Lisabob Not to worry. I am in complete agreement with you. And yes! We, winged critters stick together. Thanks for the welcome. And to add, you know, birds of prey know they're cool Thanks all, for the chat on this... Eagle Pete

Lisabob My intent?? Oh, you want to know what my intent is... ok. I thought I made this clear in my opening post on the topic. Sorry if I wasn't very clear. Let me explain by telling you how this came about. I was eating hotdogs at my beading ceremony, and just chatting with some of the folks who attended. We were discussing the Wood Badge ticket and what goes into working a properly crafted, and well meaning ticket. There were many who, either by parroting or by thinking through the process, came to the conclusion that a Wood Badge ticket could be compared, at least in time involvement, to 2 or 3 Eagle projects. I don't know that either I agreed or disagreed at the time. It seems to me that the Eagle Rank is often used as a benchmark for many things in scouting which require significant effort. It becomes a clich that in order to measure the value of service, training, awards, etc., these are so often measured against the efforts necessary to earn the Eagle Rank. I am neither condoning nor am I condemning the notion. I am not "intent on pursuing this comparison". I just brought this up as a topic to discuss. I am also looking for specific examples of why this comparison is not valid, if indeed it isn't. I recognize that my opinions are just that, opinions. I don't typically spread unsubstantiated "facts". I try to validate my opinions, which is another reason for bringing up the topic here - seeking validation. So far, everyone, including yourself, has reaffirmed what I originally believed (i.e., we're on the same side of this issue). It's just a topic for discussion - probably not worthy of this forum. Be that as it may, if there are any valid points to be made, I am much obliged. Eagle Pete

Great responses to all! Some of the things I wanted to explore on this topic, and which I believe have come out, are, can there be a direct correlation between Eagle projects and Wood Badge tickets? Are we just comparing apples to oranges here? Is it an over simplification to assert that a Wood Badge ticket is like 2 or 3 Eagle projects? So far, the discussion is leaning toward the latter, however in sheer dedicated time, can it be said that a Wood Badge participant might devote similar hours to their ticket items as a boy scout might toward an Eagle project? It seems to me that this was the main rational which is lending ear to this notion. Also, I wanted to clarify that my original meaning was to compare the Wood Badge ticket as a whole (all 5 ticket items) with an Eagle Service Project. Certainly, a typical ticket does comprise ticket items of varying complexities and involvement. I feel it is easier to look at the Wood Badge ticket (and perhaps more realistic) as a single project when comparing it to an Eagle project. I also agree that the two have fundamental differences where structure, outcome, direction, and community are affected and benefited. Additionally, it has been pointed out that the boy scout should learn and come away from the experience with specific leadership skills and understanding, which is quite different than a Wood Badge participant would have, thus, the over simplification of the comparison. Any other thoughts? Eagle Pete

It's Me That sounds like it worked out ok. You got an apology, the boy is staying in scouting, the parents seem to be in agreement with the results, and nobody went to jail. Congratz! Eagle Pete

Eamonn wrote: "I don't think if I was the Wood Badge Director that I would select someone who has just completed their ticket to be on staff. At the course so much information is given, that it is hard to take in. After the course participants are busy working on their tickets. I think taking some time to allow the course to sink in is a good idea." I couldn't agree with you more. It does take time for the course to sink in, even after completing the ticket. I personally know a couple staffers who were selected to serve on staff shortly after completing their tickets and, quite frankly, they felt overwhelmed. I will be serving on staff next fall and I can see the benefits of taking time after Wood Badge. I am looking forward to the experience, rather than feeling rushed into it. Eagle Pete

This is just food for thought / fodder for discussion I was reading one of the threads here and it sparked a thought of mine which I have had in the past and is a theory which I have heard, at least going around my local council, that says something like "a Wood Badge ticket is like doing 3 or 4 Eagle projects." First of all, I should state that I am NOT an Eagle Scout, and so I am no authority on the efforts required to earn the rank. That being said, I have done some reading and have spoken with some Eagle Scouts about their projects and what it actually takes to earn the Eagle rank. I have, however, completed my ticket for Wood Badge for the 21st Century and therefore I can speak first hand on that subject. According to some sources (and some parents I have spoken to) the average rough estimate for an Eagle project is about 200 hours. This works out to be approximately 17 days @ 12 hours per day, or just over 2 weeks, assuming the scout devoted 12 hours each day he worked on the project. Now, because I am an adult with a few more responsibilities than an average Boy Scout, I would estimate that I was able to dedicate 12 hours a week to work my ticket. That being the case, it would take me just over 16 weeks to complete an Eagle project which required 200 hours of work. If I did 3 or 4 of these project, that would be approximately 1 year of work, and, coincidentally, that is about how much time it took me to complete my Wood Badge ticket. Now I am just doing the numbers, and I do realize there is a big difference between an adult working on a project vs a 16 year-old boy on a project. However, the theory does seem to hold true, at least by the numbers. Does anyone agree/disagree with the notion that a Wood Badge ticket is similar to doing 3 or 4 Eagle projects? Anyone care to challenge my analysis or the concept in general. Personally, if this is a flawed theory, I would like to dispel the rumors. Eagle Pete

lizzygo Here's where I AGREE with ScoutNut - If you have parents who are obviously avoiding Tiger Den Meetings and who have also agreed to be Tiger Partners, they may need a little refresher on what their responsibilities are as Tiger Partners. I believe there should be more commitment there. You may want to establish some policies for your Tiger Cub Den such as, if the Tiger Partner cannot attend, arrangements must be made for a secondary Tiger Partner - This should be an individual that you know personally and who understands the Tiger Cub Program. You may want to have the Tiger Partners sign these individuals up as "secondary" Tiger Partners so that you know who they are. I am not sure it is a good idea to allow the Tiger Partners to be able to just grab anyone to substitute for them; however I do like the idea of an organized substitute system which you have some control over. Tiger Partners should have the sense that this is a responsibility they are committed to and not just something they can do whenever it is convenient. Eagle Pete

Correct me if I am wrong, but based on what TigerDen2 has posted, I believe that the original issue, "How do I get them to volunteer?", is referring more to help with the various den projects, activities, and tasks associated with running a successful den, and not so much how to get parents to be Tiger Partners. TigerDen2 stated: "The parents MUST attend & they know it. I had two drop out immediatley after the first meeting when they found out it wasn't a baby sitting service." It appears that TigerDen2 has already made it clear to the parents that there needs to be Tiger Partners. I got the sense from the posts that TigerDen2 would simply like some ideas and direction on how to approach parents for help with the den, beyond the Tiger Partner responsibility. This is not an uncommon issue which all Den Leaders face, and it is a good topic to bring up. TigerDen2 - I am not a forum moderator or anything, but I would like to say that it appears you may have been unjustly flamed here. If you feel that someone's reply (not to name names - ScoutNut) was a bit harsh, don't take it personally or assume that this is how your comments are normally going to be treated on this forum. The past 2 years I have been a member, I have only been flamed..... 50 or 60 times (kidding). Actually, the forum is fairly reasonable and allows for many opinions to be expressed, for the most part. A word of caution, however.. the Scout Motto applies here - Be Prepared to back up policy statements with official sources. You will be challenged on these from time to time. ScoutNut - Ease up a little, eh? My Gosh! TigerDen2 just joined... At least let them move out of "New Forum Member" status before firing up the Flame Thrower... Policy speaking, you are absolutely correct, however I don't believe that Tiger Partners was the original issue to be addressed. All TigerDen2 wanted was advice on how to get parents to volunteer (read the subject). That is an issue which applies to Tigers, Wolves, Bears, and Webelos. And if they can pick up some good parent/den relationship building skills now, it may be useful for positions they may hold in the future as well. Let's cut 'em a little slack, whadda ya say? Eagle Pete

TigerDen2 You've taken the lead as a volunteer Den Leader (2 Thumbs Up). You're a great example to all the parents! Hopefully they will follow your lead some day. Over the years I have had various levels of support from parents and I have come to a few conclusions... Parents (as a rule) don't just volunteer For many reasons, including unfamiliarity with the program, uncertainty where to help, not wanting to jump right into scouting, time constraints, etc., parents do not readily volunteer to help out. Ask for small, specific tasks I have found it is much more effective, and easier for parents to swallow if you ask them if they can do one specific task, rather than asking for help with a meeting or event in general. Also, I was much more successful meeting with them one-on-one, asking them personally. I get a lot more 'yes' responses this way. Recognize your parents When you do get some parents to help out, make sure they are immediately recognized. Make sure you thank them for their help. They need to feel appreciated, as we all do. Use awards, 'thank you' cards, special attention, etc. You will find that, just like the boys, parents love recognition. They will be more willing to help in the future as well if they feel you appreciate their efforts. Be Patient Keep in mind this will take time. You will want to build relationships with the parents and that doesn't happen over night. You will notice that as your relationship grows with the parents, their willingness to help will grow with it. Also, I would do a little informal parent training especially for new parents in the den. Many parents who are not familiar with the Tiger Cub program do not realize there is a partnership relationship between you, the parents, and the boys. They may need to be educated about this. Parents need to know what their role is in the Tiger Den. For new parents, I would have an orientation which they would go through that outlines what they can expect from the Den and what you expect from the parents. Good Luck, and if you haven't already, be sure to get Trained (Fast Start, New Leader Essentials, Position Specific Training). Keep up the good work. It will pay off! Eagle Pete

madmike You're right. A Tiger Cub probably won't do much more than look at the pictures... but he may want to read some of those Boys' Lifes later. Mom or dad can put them away for him to read when he is older. I know I would love to have some of those BL mags I got when I was a kid... What I wouldn't do for them now.... I don't believe it is a waste of money or just goes to a BSA money pot somewhere, although I am not blind to the fact that BSA does make money on the subscriptions. I don't really care. Don't some of us donate to the BSA anyway? The fact is, it takes money to keep this program running. And I am not opposed to helping out... I get far more in return than I have ever donated to the BSA - be that volunteer donations, uniform purchases, literature, time, tallent, or whatever. Eagle Pete

CORRECTION SWScouter is correct. According to the Webelos Uniform Inspection Sheet, "Olive/Tan Webelos Scout Uniform. Webelos Scouts electing this option wear blue shoulder loops, Webelos neckerchief, and Webelos cap. Blue (preferred) or olive belt may be worn. Academics and Sports belt loops will fit only on the blue belt. Badge placement is same as for blue uniform. Thank you for the clairification. Eagle Pete

Lisabob Thank you for the clarification. I certainly agree that cost can be an issue. There are a few things a den or pack can do to try to offset this... Uniform Bank This is a uniform exchange system where boys leaving the pack or moving up to Webelos can turn in their blue shirt and receive tan shirt in exchange. Boys who grow out of tan shirts can also donate their shirt to the uniform bank for the Webelos coming up. It takes some time to build it, but it can be a great resource for the pack. I suggest giving a committee member charge of organizing and managing the bank. That way uniforms are kept track of and kept in better condition. Fund Raisers Hold special fund raising events specifically for raising money for uniforms. Be sure to advertise that all proceeds go to the purchase of uniforms. This way the boys can "earn" their uniforms. They may even take pride in them, having worked for them. Pack Provided Items The pack may not be able to raise enough funds for all the uniforms, but it may be able to provide patches, neckerchiefs, hats, or other uniform components to offset some of the costs of uniforming for the parents. You are correct that the choice of uniform is ultimately up to the parents. But if it is important to the pack to be uniformed a certain way, there are ways to do this. I recommend involving parents with the decisions of how to accomplish uniforming and where these funds will come from. Invite them to the next Committee meeting to discuss uniforms and what the pack would like to accomplish. Seek their input on how to achieve the goals of the pack as far as uniforming. Parents will gain a sense of ownership in the pack and feel their voices are heard and have a vested interest in the program. Eagle Pete(This message has been edited by eagle-pete)

WDL Mom I concur with Lisabob... There doesn't appear to be any restrictions with wearing the Webelos den patrol emblem on either the blue or the tan shirt. Nor does there seem to be anything regarding having to earn the Webelos Rank as a den before wearing a patrol emblem. I would like to bring up a few points. First, you may want to consider coming to some agreement on either the blue shirt or the tan shirt for a couple reasons. One... Den Unity. Having all boys wear the same color shirt lends to a feeling of unity in the den, which is one of the big reasons for wearing the uniform in the first place. Two... Insignia. Some of the insignia worn on the tan uniform is quite different than the blue uniform. Specifically, the Webelos badge is not only a different color for the two shirts, it is also a different shape (note: boys who wear the blue shirt MUST wear the diamond Webelos badge - boys who wear the tan shirt MUST wear the oval Webelos badge). This can potentially create confusion for proper uniform insignia placement for parents, leaders, and boys. I would also note that having the Webelos wear the tan shirt helps with the transition to Boy Scouting, where they will wear the tan shirt for the rest of their time as a Boy Scout. Also, I don't know if you plan to conduct Uniform Inspections, but to me, this would be a lot easier if one shirt was decided on... That's just my personal preference. You also made the point, "...the den emblem will help the boys learn about being in a patrol, and that is more important than the incorrect uniforming issue." I would like to point out that the uniform helps to promote den unity, which (correct me if I am wrong) I believe you are referring to when you say "being in a patrol". You also should have a den flag and den yell. All these things help with den unity. Also, do you have a Webelos Den Chief? He can be an invaluable tool to help promote den unity and lead the Webelos into a Boy Scout patrol. Use ALL the tools available in the Webelos program and you will see the boys become a unified den. The crossover to their patrol will be a natural transition. Eagle Pete

Interesting Did he have a problem with the new leader coming in or just a problem with the rotation itself? Eagle Pete

Very good, John! Have a GREAT ceremony! Yeah, I'm a lifer too... Hope to see ya on staff someday. Eagle Pete

As many of us already know, one of the optional requirements of National Quality Unit award is an increase in subscriptions to Boys' Life magazine. "A subscription to Boys Life will go into the homes of all our Tiger Cubs, Cub Scouts,and Webelos Scouts, or we will have a 10 percent increase over a year ago." The Interpretation of Commitments on the reverse side of the form recommends that "...100 percent of your pack families sub-scribe. Part of the packs annual budget should include Boys Life magazine." While I would never insist that every family in every pack subscribe to the magazine, I believe it is a worth while (and relatively cheap) purchase. CC Tanya's goal of 100% Boys' Life is definatley legitimate and worth while. If there is a bugetary concern, a pack could plan for this if it is a priority of the pack (seek Committee aproval on this). I had the fortune of receiving Boys' Life as a youth and I enjoyed it very much. Eagle Pete(This message has been edited by eagle-pete)

lizzygo This is definitely allowed... the question is is it the best thing for the boy. Your Cub Master may be able to provide some guidance in this, however I would be willing to bet that the ultimate decision will be up to you, the Den Leader. I would have a sit-down talk with the parent and find out the reasoning behind the request to change dens. Your final decision should be geared toward what is best for the boy. Eagle Pete(This message has been edited by eagle-pete)

Well, if I knew you were going to give this to the SM I would have been more blunt! (kidding) Anyway, let us know how it all turns out. Eagle Pete

What a topic! One could write a book about what Wood Badge is about... I've been thinking of a way to reply to this topic without sounding like an ad for a time share... Let's see now... (cheesy music starts playing) What is Wood Badge ALL about? Well, I am hardly qualified to say what it's ALL about... I can tell you a few things... Wood Badge is about Camaraderie - Learning to work together, finding new, sometimes life-long friends, joining a brotherhood that lasts for years and years. Wood Badge is about Service - Serving fellow Wood Badgers, serving the patrol, serving one another, giving Good Will, serving the Scout. Wood Badge is about Leading - Leading the patrol, teaching others, passing on timeless values, leading the Scouts. Leading to Make A Difference. Wood Badge is about Teamwork - pulling together, working together, understanding together. Wood Badge is about Vision - Your vision, the Scouting vision, having a goal, reaching a goal, enhancing your program, getting the picture. Wood Badge is about Hard Work - Working toward a goal, stretching yourself, teaching about work, learning about work, working with Scouts. Wood Badge is about Fun - Making it fun, keeping it simple, finding the fun, the Game and the Purpose, fun with the boys. Wood Badge is about Relationships - Working with people, resolving conflict, motivating others, building others, seeing the best in others. Wood Badge is about Good Food - Cooking good food, eating good food, dining with your patrol, dining outdoors, Good Friends go with Good Food. Wood Badge is about the Outdoors - Camping outdoors, leaving no trace, experiencing the outdoors, understanding the outdoors and what this Method is all about. Wood Badge is about Camp Fires - Telling stories, reading poems, stunts and skits, telling jokes, building the Fire. Wood Badge is about Setting Goals - Working your ticket, measuring, achieving great things, practical application, keeping the vision alive. Wood Badge is about Critters - The Beaver, the Bobwhite, the Eagle, the Fox, the Owl, the Bear, the Buffalo, the Antelope. Wood Badge is many things. This list is only a fraction of the experience you are about to have. Do I sound like a Wood Badge salesman.. I'm working on it. Your experience will be unique to you. It would be difficult to give you a true picture of what you personally will find at Wood Badge. I could not begin to guess. Different things happen to different people, because of their backgrounds, expectations, and level of Scouting experience. One thing is for sure, you won't forget your time at Wood Badge. Just Go! Eagle Pete(This message has been edited by eagle-pete)

Fuzzy - Convene the EBOR and let the chips fall where they may! Do you not trust the BOR process to make appropriate judgment in this situation? If so, then let's abolish the entire BOR process. Let's go ahead and let the decision rest wholly on the shoulders of one individual: The Scoutmaster. Mom is angry that a EBOR has been denied - at this point, the rank has not had even the chance of review. If an EBOR can be convened, and the rank is denied, the scout may appeal... Who will mom yell at then? This works to the SM advantage as well. He can still stay clean out of it, and wash his hands of the situation once the Board rules. I agree whole heartedly with SSScout - Convene the EBOR Eagle Pete

saucydog We'd need a little more information here to be able to offer any useful suggestions... Would you say the scouts are "dropping out" primarily due to other activities? Have you spoken with the parents of these boys? If so, what were their responses? Have you brought this up in Committee meeting for discussion? If so, what were some of the conclusions/solutions which came from that meeting? If, after going through these steps, you have not reached any solutions, have you discussed this with your District Leaders (at Roundtable) and your Local Council? Do you know who your Council Representative is? If not, your Local Council can provide that information. If so, have you brought this to their (the CR's) attention? Do you know who your Unit Commissioner is? If not, your District Committee can provide that information. If so, have you brought this to their (the UC's) attention? Finally, what is your position in Scouting? This will determine, to some degree, what kinds of options you have and where you should begin. Just as a note, it is typical to loose some boys, unfortunately, due to circumstances out of your control. But if you are seeing a steady drop in attendance at den meetings and pack meetings, and none of these boys return, this would be an indication that something may be amiss in your program. Eagle Pete(This message has been edited by eagle-pete)