eagle-pete

Maybe if they say it over and over, some of these folks who are inventin' their own local version of the BSA will get it. I think EagleInKY hit on something crucial. Trainings are not just for olde tyme scouters to stand up on soap boxes and repeat platitudes. We all know the BSA has been around longer than any[most] of us, with the exception of Eamonn. There is some kind of strange phenomenon that occurs when a new leader gets into Scouting. They seem to want to re-invent the wheel and start creating their own version of Scouting - a proven organization for close to 100 years. Now there are undoubtedly going to be aspects of BSA trainings which are repeated over and over. The school of thought is that a concept may not be heard or understood in one training, but it is likely to be heard or understood better after more trainings. I am a great example of "not getting it". I dont how many times in the various trainings I have attended in which the concept of a Vision was introduced. However, it wasn't until Wood Badge that I finally got it. Or, put another way, it wasn't until after many repeats that the concept finally sunk in. Perhaps it was the way it was presented in Wood Badge, or simply after all the prior trainings I had I was able to grasp it. Whatever the reason, I am glad it was again presented in Wood Badge, as I rely heavily on it now in much of what I do in Scouting. We all know that new leaders, especially, will not be able to absorb everything presented in a given training. I personally went through Leader Specifics 3 times (old story), and I learned new things each time. I am also aware that well trained leaders may get bored hearing the same things repeated, but it is important to remember that there are likely many in that same training who are hearing it for the first time, or at least beginning to comprehend it. Eagle Pete

Well, for one thing, Cub Scouts are based on The Jungle Book story, which has no lion. So I am not sure how you would work that into the legend. The Jungle Book characters are: Mowgli - Main character, the young jungle boy. Hathi - An Indian Elephant Bagheera - A Black Leopard Baloo- A Sloth Bear Kaa - Indian Python Shere Khan - A Bengal Tiger Akela - A Grey Wolf Eagle Pete

It's Official Well, I've opened up my big volunteer mouth and offered to put together a Pinewood Committee for our cubs this year... So what did the Cubmaster do..? You guessed it, she put me in charge of the entire thing! So now I am heading the committee (which will be), arranging the workshop, track, writing rules, making invitations, doing food, and anything else that comes along. She (the Cubmaster) seemed quite releaved and willing to turn it over to me. So now I will be pooring through all those resources that OneHour posted. Should be fun. I plan to put on an excellent derby this year! Your consolations are greatly felt. Eagle Pete

SpongeBob I understand your frustrations. I would not only suggest to the committee that they have written rules, I would insist on it. Written rules make it clear and understandable to everyone how everything will be run and how to build acceptable cars. Also, I am not sure how your committee is able to rule on any disputes without written rules to refer to. In fact, how would you know what is illegal for your pack Pinewood Derby since your rules are "unwritten"? You could put an Estes rocket on the back of your car. Who's to say it would be illegal? To me, that is just as muchan unfair advantage as the boy who's car had a one inch head start at the gate. How can your committee make any kind of ruling onany of these infringements with nothing written to go by? Ask them if they wish to handle disputes with no written rules in front of them. I doubt they would want to face the parents and tell them sorry, we don't have any rules that address that. There have been some excellent posts on this forum which addresses Pinewood Derby: This threaddiscusses putting together a Pinewood Derby workshop which is a great way to handle some of the issues you have pointed out, such as the base of the car riding too low and hitting the track. This threadincludes several Pinewood Derby resorces provided by OneHour. IMHO, running a derby (and I have) without written rules is asking for trouble. Also, a Pinewood Derby workshop would solve many of your issues with building the cars. Pinewood Derby can be a fun event for boys and parents if handled properly. Most of the problems with Pinewoods I have seen are organizational problems. For the most part, the parents want a good experience... but when push comes to shove, the blame will rest on the pack leadership. Eagle Pete

Lisa just hit on something I have been thinking about, but was hesitant to post... But since you brought it up.... Would it be too off the wall to set up a computer with Internet and a projector in a group training environment and run through a module with the group? You could have discussions on key elements of the training. Just a thought. Eagle Pete

OldGreyEagle With all due respect, there are already some restrictions in place, just as there are age restrictions for being an adult leader. The question is, would requiring minimum age and tenure be of benefit to the participant. After all, this is a one-time deal. Whenever someone takes Wood Badge, either as a brand new leader, a young adult, or as a seasoned leader, they will not have the opertunity again. It may be to their best interest to go into this Advanced training with at least a little prep. Eagle Pete

John.. Wood Badge is two words. And enough of the flip-flopping. We get enough of that from Washington D.C. (Kidding - but not about the two words.. it really is) Eagle Pete

Good point Bill, Often this is a simple matter of opening the boy's eyes to a bigger picture. Boys of that age do not have the perspective of us adults. Just a little bit of encouragement and talk often does the trick. I also agree that talking to another leader can make a difference. Good call, and congratz on helping another boy be a Boy Scout! Eagle Pete

Gonzo Scoutnut is correct. You should have a committee formed. This committee should create the pinewood derby rules for your pack. They also become the ruling committee incase of disputes. There are many, many, many resources both in BSA and on the internet for Pinewood Derby. One of my favorite places on the net is: http://www.geocities.com/~pack215/pwd-rules.html That site is a virtual cub leader handbook, and although it is not Official BSA, the site does keep their info up to date and they follow BSA policies. Eagle Pete

Eamonn One of the concerns I have when a younger adult leader (be that in chronological age or by tenure) heads off to Wood Badge is that they are going to be presented material which is intended for adult leaders who have developed beyond the initial leadership stages. I remember when I was beginning as an adult leader I had a vague idea of how the BSA program was put together. I had no idea how to properly motivate and deal with the dynamics of parents/leaders/youth, except for the small amount of experience in professional and church responsibilities I brought with me, much of which didn't apply anyway. It wasn't until a progressive, step-by-step process which included basic trainings, seeing working examples of other units, advise from other very experienced leaders, my own leadership experiences in Scouting, and time that I was able to see a clear picture of the Scouting Program. Another concern is that of developing the vision of Scouting. As you well know, this concept of a vision of scouting is huge in Wood Badge. And although I do recognize that even an 18 year old can develop their own vision of scouting, it is ultimately based on their personal experiences, which at age 18 is more limited than at age 25 or 30, hence the 20 Questions. Ok, there's the rational for placing a minimum age requirement - Now for the practicality argument... Is requiring a minimal age practical? Well, you have pointed out the problem. You might have an 18 year old who is prepared and ready for the course and on the other hand there are plenty who are not. You also bring out a very important issue... is an 18-20 year-old truly ready for adult leadership? Well, no... that is why they can only be assistants. Aside from the obvious chronological age problem, most 18-20 yr olds are simply not experienced enough to handle leadership, IMHO (perhaps with the exception of military personnel as John pointed out). Now, in the U.S., an 18 yr old is legally an adult. They can sign their name, make their own decisions, and mom and dad can legally boot them out of the house. Age 18 is sort of a magic number. Our society, and the law, for that matter, considers age 18 as the "your on your own" age and we tend to let 18 year-olds decide for themselves what they want. We tend not to impose very many restrictions on them. So it's tough to say to an 18-20 year-old they can't come to Wood Badge. Another problem you have described is filling the course with warm bodies (can I register my dog?). What CD is going to turn away an eligible participant from their course? Especially if the number of registered participants has not yet reached the magic number to hold the course! Absolutely the participants are invited... ALL of them. We may find that even if the minimum age is raised, it may be considered more of a suggested age, and under-ager's will slip in anyway. I agree. The minimum age should be raised to 21. I also think that a minimum tenure should be considered. I don't think 2 years tenure as a registered adult leader is unreasonable, and it should be consecutive and should be completed within 6 months prior to the course start date. How's THAT for some harsh requirements! Eagle Pete(This message has been edited by eagle-pete)

tchevren posted - "I'm not sure why he doesn't want to continue. He enjoys camping and doing things with the other boys." Boys at this age may be apprehensive of moving into a new environment. Many boys who move into the Boy Scout troop are following their brother(s) or older friends and so they feel more comfortable with the transition. He may feel alone or scared that the older boys may not accept him. On the other hand, he may have no rational reason for not wanting to go into the troop. Whatever the reason behind his apprehension, there should be a plan in place which helps your boys transition from Webelos to Scouts. Take a look at this site http://www.geocities.com/~pack215/webelos-to-scout.html One of the main goals of the Webelos den is to get the boy ready for Boy Scouting. You may have already been doing many of the things suggested in the Webelos-to-Scout plan. I would give the boy some time. Have him go on some activities with the Boy Scouts without making his transition "Official". You may want to discuss with the boy, his parents, and the Scoutmaster to make a trial period for the boy in Boy Scouts. I have a feeling that after he tries it out, makes some friends, and begins to feel more comfortable, he will most likely naturally accept the Boy Scouts. At the end of the trial, if the boy wants to stay with the troop have the troop make his membership official by having a special welcome for him. It should be an easy transition from there. Lisa brought up camping... this would be your key to helping the boy to accept the Boy Scouts. If he already likes camping, this is an excellent way to get him to feel more comfortable in the troop. Webelos overnighters are fun, but nothing compares to Boy Scout camp. Eagle Pete(This message has been edited by eagle-pete)

Just an after thought... For those planning hot dogs in future events... don't make the mistake I did. For reasons I cannot explain, hot dog buns are not counted the same in packages as the hot dogs are... I found this out the hard way. We planned an event and when I purchased the hot dog buns I didn't notice that hot dogs came in packs of 10 and the buns are in packs of 8. We came up 15 short on the hot dog buns. Everyone was understanding but many went without buns. I was rather embarrassed about the whole thing. Anyway, I am sure that MomToEli would never make this mistake. Just make sure to have equal amounts of hot dog buns as hot dogs. It's a mistake I won't repeat soon. Eagle Pete

robvio Welcome I cannot add much to what has already been said here, except to tell you that as a boy, I was not able to participate much more than you. I am sure that my parents' relationship problems were very important at the time, but their problems became bigger than they could handle and somehow they forgot about a boy. Scouting became less of a priority for them, and consequently, less of an influence for me. I made it through Webelos. I never had a chance at getting my Eagle. Sad story, eh? Nah! As an adult I never forgot the small amount of scouting that I did get exposed to. Even the Cub Scouts can make a difference. I got involved as an adult and over the past 6 years worked with some of the most excellent people I could have known. I decided to take as much training as I could find. Wood Badge was a huge influence on me. Down the road, after you've gotten some of those things done that John has suggested, do whatever you can to get to a Wood Badge training course. I began to see the "vision" from Wood Badge. Somehow it all pieced together after that. Also, it is vital that you keep foremost in your mind, and in YOUR vision of scouting, the underlying reason for the whole thing, which Sue has so eloquently described... that is, we are here for the boys. All we do... our reason for existing is for the boys. Actually, you may find that your experience as a boy in poorly run programs will actually augment this and you will do more to bring an excellent program to those boys, based on what you missed as a boy. At least, that was my experience. Good Luck! And be sure to get into a Wood Badge course once you've gone through the basics in Johns list. Yours in Scouting Eagle Pete (Incase you are puzzled about my nick name, because I just stated I never earned my Eagle Scout... Go to Wood Badge. You'll understand)

YVONNE Hey.. welcome to the forum I agree with the advise so far. The basic problem with RT attendance is essentially that scouters need to know that there is something worth coming for. Everyone is busy and to compete with this your RT program must be top notch. A few things that can help (some have been stated already... sorry) 1. You need to have someone on staff who is outgoing, energetic, and can communicate well. This adds energy and enthusiasm to your program. It doesn't have to be goofy or ridiculous, but Cub Scout Roundtable generally should be up-beat and full of energy. 2. I totally agree with the hands-on suggestions. In order to get people to your roundtable you need to offer something useful that the leaders can take with them. When they leave RT, they should be saying, "Wow! That was worth going to!" 3. There should be some training available. Whether that is Fast Start, informal Leader Specifics, or a combination. Make sure your "trainers" who lead these sessions are experienced leaders who know how to present these training well. 4. KISMIF. Think of roundtable as a well-crafted pack meeting, as this is how roundtable should be presented. Pack meetings are fun, energetic, fun, fast-paced, and, did I mention, FUN. Beyond that, the suggestions for good advertisements and communication to the units are very good, but once your RT program is brought up to the quality you want, the advertising will shift to word of mouth, because of the GREAT program you will present. Eagle Pete

SR540Beaver I see what you mean. They'd have to pry my beads out of my cold dead hands. Eagle Pete

The following post by John-In-KC is in response to concerns regarding the policy of having those who have not taken Wood Badge for the 21st Century to take the course before being able to staff it. This begs the question - Is it so bad to take Wood Badge over again? Whatever happened to Tom Peter's management concept "Train and retrain constantly?" Advantages to re-taking WB: - New friends. - Different perspectives - Chance to revisit leadership skills We all have to make choices; sometimes they are tough choices. Allocating time amongst family, work, and Scouting is one of those sets of choices. To me, the two (silver) Beavers are asking for some cheese with their whine. Life isn't always fair. Deal with it. Some, perhaps most of us may never get a chance to staff a WB cycle. Each course, 48 ideally enter, hopefully 48 leave, give service to Scouting, and get beaded. Is there room the next cycle for 48 Scouters to work staff? Don't think so. If you had to take Wood Badge over again, would you? I thoroughly enjoyed Wood Badge as a participant and if given the choice, I would not object to taking the course again. There are many benefits to re-taking any course. John notes just a few here. Could I benefit, as a staffer, to re-take Wood Badge? Certainly. Especially if several years had passed since I was a participant. For those who have been the "victim" of timing, why resent having to take Wood Badge for the 21st Century in order to staff it? We have one such individual in our council. He actually feels it was a bit of a stroke of luck. He took his old Wood Badge experience and brought it to the new course. It seems like such a waste to turn your back on what could be an incredible experience which very few will ever have. Eagle Pete

jr56 I don't get it. As a participant, I took the new (Wood Badge for the 21st Century) course and never had any sense of elitism from our staff. I am now on staff for a course coming up this September and we are so far from the elitists it isn't even worth bringing up. Elitism is one of the things Wood Badge for the 21st Century wants to get rid of. Either your council is still presenting Wood Badge with an elitist air, or maybe I just don't get your comments. Eagle Pete

Welcome awesome1 and well said. I, too, served as Cubmaster and remember those years as some of my most cherished memories of Scouting. Eagle Pete

In response to Lisabob's story of the pinewood derby race gone awry... A Scout is: Trustworthy, Gone are the days when your word was your honor, and a handshake meant a deal. We now have contracts, lawyers, legal instuments, courts, lawsuits, etc. Loyal, Selfishness - that's what this is all about. That's what causes mariages and families to be torn apart. What does it say to our boys to disregard the loyalty and brotherhood we claim to be apart of. Helpful, Just as a reminder, not all of us are expert pinewood derby car builders. Not all of us have precision tools to make the perfect car, nor the knowhow to use the tools if we had them. A saw, hammer, and some glue... that's the extent of it. Why can't the experts give us a helping hand? Friendly, When did we lose this? And how will the boys learn it? At a pinewood derby race? Courteous, My dad taught me a lot - only a few things have stuck. Here's one. To be a gentleman. Common courteousy. Is it too much to ask? Kind, Who is the winner of the race? The one who crosses the finish line first? The one who can yell the loudest - punch the hardest - cut down the best? Who really is the winner of the race? Obedient, Play by the rules; the basics of morals. Cheerful, Attitude - much of where we go in life depends so much on this. Thrifty, I remember when we could build our own tracks and devise simple finish lines. I also remember when mail was a 2 day process. We depend on our technology - the pace of life has changed. Brave, The hardest battles are fought within. Do we have the courage to concede defeat? Can we allow the honors to pass to the next guy (gal)? Are we brave enough to stand up for the boys' values? Clean, Hearts and hands. Can we look at ourselves in the mirror? Can we look our boys in the eye? and Reverent. Remember, God knows our hearts. I sometimes wonder where we, as a society, have placed these values. If they are sacrificed at a pinewood derby race, where else are they neglected? And where will the boys learn them? Eagle Pete

JKevin My advise... stay focused on completing your ticket. Don't allow anticipation of staffing or how that will all take place to affect your experience working your ticket. Just my opinion, but I don't think it's a good idea for CD's to select participants who have not yet earned their ticket to be on staff. In fact, they should probably give them some time after the beading ceremony as well; say, a year or so... At least allow the newly beaded Wood Badger to enjoy their new beads. I have known Wood Badgers who were invited on staff right after receiving their beads... in fact, one was in my Wood Badge patrol. Their experience was that the whirlwind of jumping from participant - to beading ceremony - to staff was so overwhelming that they had trouble absorbing it all. They told me they didn't feel their staffing experience had the same meaning as it might have if there was time to pause and reflect between the experiences. This is not to say, JKevin, that you won't have a great experience staffing. It is just my opinion that your experience may be different than one who has had time to breathe before arriving at Staff Orientation. Before I was invited to be on staff I kept wondering if I would ever get the chance. After three years went by I began to doubt that I would ever be invited. I know a few older scouters who still had "only" two beads (as if that was some kind of deficiency). Now I see the benefit of waiting and not having the invitation cloud my experience as a participant. It's an honor to be invited on staff, JKevin. Make the most of it. But finish that ticket before worrying about staff. Eagle Pete

Merry Christmas Just wanted to wish everyone a very merry Christmas! Eagle Pete

Training Training Training I am surprised no one has mentioned this (beyond ScoutNut's small mention) If you are new at this stuff and only have experience as an assistant Tiger Den Leader, you will need to do first what ScoutNut already mentioned, Fast Start and Leader Specific training for Cubmasters (usually presented in Leader Basic Trainings). Additionally, I highly recommend taking a Wood Badge course in the near future. As a Cubmaster, you will have to deal with many people; including parents, other pack leaders, your Charter Rep, and the boys. Wood Badge gives you invaluable people skills which you will need. In addition to formal trainings, be sure to attend Roundtable every month. Cub Scout Roundtable provides assistance specifically for the Cub Program. It is usually presented in a fun way and promotes creativity and is a fountain of great ideas for leaders. Oh yes... Get yourself a copy of the Cub Scout Leader book and read it from cover to cover. Not only do you need to know the responsibilities of the Cubmaster, but I found it extremely helpful when I was Cubmaster to know the responsibilities of all other positions in Cub Scouts. The Cub Leader book details these positions very well. Get to know your District and Local Council leaders. They can be very helpful and, at the very least, can provide contacts and other resources to help you. Also, you mentioned that you have quite a large pack, in terms of number of boys. In this case I would strongly recommend having a minimum of 2 Assistant Cubmasters - probably more like 3 ACMs. This will make your job alot easier (and keep you sane). I echo Trevorum's comment as well. Most of all, like we always tell the boys, have fun being a Cubmaster! It is the best job in Cubs. KIS - MIF I almost forgot This is the Virtual Cub Scout Leader's Handbook online. http://www.geocities.com/~Pack215/ I wouldn't use it as a substitute for the actual Cub Scout Leader's Handbook, but it is a great resource. It is kept up to date and has tons of great info. Eagle Pete(This message has been edited by eagle-pete)

Case in Point I was a Cubmaster when I wrote my ticket. One of my goals for my ticket was (and I am paraphrasing - I don't recall the exact wording) to improve parent/scout relations by involving the parents more in the program, educating the parents on how the Cub Program works, and giving them more ownership of the program. One of the steps I took to reach this goal was I had a personal meeting with each of the parents of the Cubs. I invited the parents, the den leader, and their son(s) to attend the meeting. In the meeting we went through the cub program, focusing especially on the current age group of their son(s). We went over the responsibilities of their den leader, how a den meeting is run, how advancements are handled, where the Cubmaster fits in, and how parents should be involved in the program. We took some of the time to have an open discussion with the parents and their boy(s) to express any concerns they have, questions, or suggestions for their den and the pack. We also went over the upcoming goals and plans for the pack for the next few months and invited their input. They were then invited to attend the Pack Committee meeting as active participants in the program planning. These meetings proved to be very successful in making the parents feel more included and part of the program. We greatly improved the communication and cooperation of the parents and they were able to work much closer with their den leader. Overall, it was a very successful project. I didn't openly tell the parents that this originated with a goal for Wood Badge or was to go toward some kind of reward. I didn't want the parents' involvement to be tainted because they might feel I was just trying to get some reward or get another notch toward a requirement completed. I wanted it to be a sincere effort on both parts - the parents and scout leaders. This turned out to be one of the most successful and rewarding parts of my Wood Badge ticket and I learned a great deal about the parents and how they view the program. I understood their point of view and why they become involved/uninvolved at times. It also allowed me to make changes to the program which specifically addressed the parents' concerns. Also, this ticket item forced me to use just about every skill I learned from the practical course. I didn't realize it at the time I wrote it, but I couldn't have wrote a better ticket item. Eagle Pete

Try http://www.woodbadge.org/images/Back%20to%20Gilwell.jpg

I agree. Any exceptions to the tenure rule would need approval from the district. As far as the religious award, some denominations may have different requirements (I have not researched every one), and so this may not apply to earning the religious award. Mine, for example, has no requirements for tenure as a Scout Leader. The tenure for my religious award only applies to the length of time I have served in a capacity in my church with the youth, and therefore, I could earn both the Cub Scouter award and my religious award at the same time. Tenure applied toward a Scout Leader award can only be used for the position in which you are registered at the time you are earning the award. You don't typically register with the BSA for church positions. Also, the two awards (Scout Leaders and religious) serve two different purposes IMO. Addendum The God and Service award I believe is not a BSA award, although it does include BSA service in its tenure requirements. It appears that questions regarding requirements for this award should be addressed to the P.R.A.Y. organization. http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:gBkLqMS5jU0J:www.praypub.org/pdf_docs/godandservice.pdf+god+and+service+award&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=1&client=firefox-a Eagle Pete(This message has been edited by eagle-pete)