eagle-pete

Cory If I were you, I would make sure to take the first step and get fully trained myself. Training is the key. You will find that training solves many problems both for struggling units and for well established ones. Follow the advise of the above posts. Beyond that, I would need alot more information from you to advise further. You didn't provide much in your post. I would need to know the following: (1)What is your Scouting position in the pack? (2)What other leaders are already in place and what training have they received? (3)What are some of the issues you see? You said, "I'm trying to save a Cub Scout pack". What are the problems the pack faces and what do YOU plan to help with? (4)What would be the "ideal" pack for you (what is your vision)? I would need the answers to the above questions in order to help you with specific issues. Keep this in mind... You are not going to solve all their problems by yourself. They will have to take some ownership and resolve alot of their own issues. But you can get things started in the right direction. Eagle Pete

Ah, I see... we are only talking about nice pranks. Please enlighten me... are we just talking about those types listed here by grampye, Eamonn, cajuncody, Texas Scouter, BrentAllen, wingnut, AwHeck, SSScout, packsaddle, evmori, C-BOLT, ASM915, FScouter, OldGreyEagle, anarchist? Which of these would qualify for a nice prank and which would you say are more of a malicious nature? And who makes these decisions? When would you say a 16 year old might know the nuances of when a nice prank turns bad and would he know what to do about it? And when? And with whom? Could he stop his friends and say, "Wait a minute... This is starting to get mean." I am just saying let us, as adults, stop for a moment and think before the prank begins. I am neither condemning nor am I condoning the prank. Let's think about it though, as rational adults, and weigh it against the scouting values we claim to uphold. Eagle Pete

Here, Here! Eagle Pete

BrentAlen I am not sure I understand your point. Are you saying that pranks and dealing with boys who "go too far with a prank" is part of the Aims and Methods of Scouting? Are you inferring that we as leaders should promote pranks as a means to "...have a keen respect for the basic rights of all people; and are prepared to participate in and give leadership to American society."? -- www.scouting.org, Aims and Methods of Scouting There has got to be better ways to convey this message to our youth. Anyway, I am not going to continue to quote BSA.. you are capable of looking up the quotes yourself. I will capitulate the value of learning from mistakes, however I have to side with FScouter on this... "It's a sad state of affairs when Boy Scouts can't have fun unless they're hammering on their fellow Scouts." Eagle Pete

As I am sure you are aware, BrentAlen, the Boy Scouts of America already has a means of "taking 11 year old children and turning them into young men." We call this the Aims and Methods of Scouting. No where in the Aims and Methods do I see listed pranks and "If the boys go too far with a prank,..." This isn't the YMCA, Boot Camp, or some other organization which puts youth through proving grounds or tests to see what we can "teach" them. This is the BSA. We don't teach firearms without a supervising NRA-certified Range Safety Officer, we don't go rock climbing without a qualified rock climbing instructor who is at least 21 years of age, and we don't see how much a kid can take or whether he's "thick skinned" enough to handle a prank. If this seems to err too far on the side of caution then go join an organization that suits you better. Also.. please read my post if you want to critique it. I clearly state the risk is yours. If you know your boys well enough to play a prank, by all means feel free to do so. Pranks CAN be fun. Pranks CAN be safe. But do yourself a favor. Ask the target boy of a prank if he appreciates how much the other boys learned from their mistakes and whether he'd like to volunteer to be the target again for the boys to learn more from. Tell me how this teaches a boy how to be a man? Eagle Pete

And how many boys ages 12-18 know the difference? Not that I disagree with you, Beavah. Actually, I think you have hit it on the head. My point was not that pranks are not fun. It is just that most young men have difficulty making the distinction between fairness and fun, cruelty and light teasing, hurting and joking. I believe the maturity of boy scout age kids does not allow for the ability to make this kind of distinction. Even if an adult controls the environment and makes certain that lines are not crossed and the prank doesn't go too far, kids generally do not have the ability to understand the difference between a safe, fair, and non-destructive prank, and a cruel joke. That kind of perception requires years of experience and maturity which is not within the grasp of kids that age. We, adults, see it as fun and we see the lines clearly drawn. Believe me... I love a good joke as much as anyone. I am sure pranks will be played on the Wood Badge course I will be staffing. It's all in good fun, and all of us adults know the comradery and brotherhood behind the jokes. Only time and wisdom can afford that type of understanding, which is an important distinction between the adult and the child. A good scout leader also needs to know the differences and limitations between adults and children. I don't believe it is a matter of living in fear behind the "Play it safe" cliche. I think it's about wisdom, experience, and knowing the potential hazards when boys play pranks. Know your boys. If you think they can handle it and you are willing to take the risk and play the odds, cut them loose and let the pranks begin. Otherwise, let's not play games with other's feelings. It isn't worth it. It isn't that funny, really. Eagle Pete

Except I don't tell my wife I post on Scouter. She thinks I do work all day. Did you tell her???? Oh Crap! Now I'm really in trouble. Eagle Pete(This message has been edited by eagle-pete)

wtf sorry... sorry. I couldn't resist. That was very bad. Sorry. Eagle Pete

And Another Thing I'd only point out that kids (and even some adults) rarely have the insight, perception, experience, wisdom, and self-control to properly pull off a well thought out prank AND be able to keep people from getting hurt, property from being destroyed, tempers from flairing, and to be able to know when it is time to quit. This is not to say a well-meaning prank cannot be performed without casualties. But I do tend to play the odds and the chances are pretty high that even in the best laid plans of mice and men, something will go awry when you are talking about Boy Scouts. Maybe I am dull, boring, and no fun, but I have found in my years of working with the youth that it is wise to steer clear of pranks and practicle jokes. Sorry to add to the pile of nay sayers. Eagle Pete

Nope. Never heard of it, never used it. It may be some reference to the L in WEBELOS, which stands for Loyal. The WEBELOS acronym is for Webelos both I and II. I know of no other distiction between the two. Just as a side note. Webelos is always used with the S on the end, whether you are talking about all Webelos scouts, one Webelos scout, or the Webelos den. Webelos is not plural. Just a trivial pet peeve of mine. Your usage, Scouting Mom, is correct. Eagle Pete(This message has been edited by eagle-pete)

Lady_Leigh67 Welcome In general - Parents who constantly complain should be confronted about it. Now, I am talking about people who do nothing but complain and they do this at every scouting event. This should be taken care of, as it causes morale problems among the Cub Leadership. Who should confront them? This depends on where the complaints are mainly centered. If they complain about the cub program in general, the Cub Master should first speak with them. This should be a private, informal meeting with the goal of addressing the concerns of the parents. The Cub Master should be prepared to take their side in consideration and work with them. After such a meeting, if the complaints have not been resolved, I would invite the parents to meet with the Cub Committee and Cub Master to address their concerns. If the concerns are directed to a particular den then the Den Leader and their assistant should meet with the parent(s) and a similar meeting with the intent to work with the parents and resolve concerns should be held. If this meeting is not resolving anything then invite the Cub Master to attend and attempt to resolve their concerns. If, after making every attempt to resolve the parent(s) concerns, you are still not making any progress, then I might do something along the lines which Cubmaster Chris suggested. Normally, I don't suggest that a family leave the pack to go to another (it is likely they will just take their complaints to the next pack). It has the conotation of dumping your problems onto another pack. Sending them to another pack would be after every avenue had been tried to resolve the concerns and issues which the parent(s) have. Typically, I have found that there are some things the complaining parents are pointing out which are legitimate grievances and we make every attempt to address them before suggesting they move to another pack. Anyway, that's my take on it. Eagle Pete

Hey VigilEagle You're absolutely right, which is why I normally have professional ceremonies performed by American Indians who know what they're doing. The other way to go, and I have done this, is to have your local Order of the Arrow chapter come to perform for you. This is nice because it is usually free and the OA normally knows Indian lore and how to perform a respectful ceremony. Either way it is always good to go with trusted performers. I have done face painting, however this was not an American Indian ceremony. In my ceremony I make it clear that the paint represents specific parts of the scouting values, and it isn't Indian "face paint". Eagle Pete

Lisa You're right about weather being an issue for ceremonies which include fire. I would typically hold ceremonies with fire involved in the summer. Also, we are an LDS unit and do not strictly follow the school year as far as cub advancements. Our cubs advance on or after their birthdays and we can potentially have Webelos earn their Arrow of Light any time of year. Yes, we do hold ceremonies for more than one boy whenever possible. Those boys who happen to earn the Arrow of Light during months of fair weather can have an outdoor ceremony which may include fire. If a boy completes the Arrow of Light requirements during colder months, we perform indoor ceremonies. These typically do not include live fire (can include artificial if done right). I have done very impressive AOL ceremonies indoors with Native American Indians and/or the OA. Both the indoor and outdoor ceremonies are very nice and the boys love them. If a boy (or parents) requests a particular ceremony which requires an outdoor setting, but the weather still does not permit it, I have been known to wait (if they boy really wants to) until weather improves, as long as it isn't too far off - no longer than a month. Eagle Pete

A Word of Caution Many moons ago I met an old Cubmaster who was experienced with AOL ceremonies. He passed on to me some very good advise - Be very careful with fire during ceremonies, especially those that involve a "pass or fail" test for the Cub Scout. You should know EXACTLY what you are doing. This kind of demonstration should be practiced, rehearsed, staged, practiced again, and then rehearsed again. You can probably guess the potential problem you have with a "pass or fail" ceremony like this. If something goes wrong you have just failed your Cub Scout. If you choose to perform a ceremony which involves fire burning in such a way as to pass or fail the test, be certain you know exactly what the fire will do. I would also have a plan 'B' in case for some reason the ceremony goes awry. Eagle Pete

Tami the Mom I am a little confused by your question. As ScoutNut pointed out, Den Chiefs have nothing to do with Cub Day Camp, at least as far as participation on a Day Camp staff is concerned. You may be confusing Den Chief with some other position in Boy Scouts. Take a look at this site: http://www.geocities.com/~pack215/dc.html That should answer many of your questions. If your son (or any boy scout) is selected to be a Den Chief they will then need to be trained and they will need to know the responsibilities of the Den Chief. This is not a casual position (which is why there is a suggested age difference between the cubs and the Den Chief and why the scout is selected by the SM/SPL). A poorly trained Den Chief who doesn't take the position seriously can be more of a problem than help for a den. Find out exactly what a Den Chief is and then, if that is really the position you are thinking of, bring it up with the Cubmaster. Eagle Pete

I think it would be helpful to define just what training is, at least in the context of Scout Leadership. Training is not simply a means of transfering information. If it were that simple, then yes, a DVD, video, or online training would suffice. But before we start "packaging" our trainings into nice, convenient value meals, let's consider the trade-offs... Scouting Spirit This is the old clich, right? Let's get that Scouting Spirit! But there is something about scouting which you have to have in order to be able to swallow all the skits, songs, and goofy activities. That intangible something is the Scouting Spirit. And the boys respond to it! Now, I am not saying this is impossible to transfer in an online training, but it is very difficult to do. First of all, the trainee must be willing to accept the Scouting Spirit. As we know well, a luke-warm leader is not going to just magically have the scouting spirit. They need to buy into it. The Sales Pitch Which brings us to the sales pitch. I, like many new leaders, didn't realize it was happening to me when I took my first BSA training. I was being "sold" on the idea of scouting. Training is not just a step-by-step outline of how to run a program. We are presenting concepts and ideas which, in order for a unit to succeed, the new leader must buy into the whole program. And this is not always achieved at their first training. It's a process which the new leader must go through and it may take several trainings before they are truly sold on scouting. Without a live, real, speaking trainer, it is very difficult to achieve this. The Process of Training There is a process which people go through in training. It begins with the assumption that the new leader has never been exposed to the concepts which BSA presents. As the leader progresses they are given new concepts built on those that have been presented until they are finally "Trained". This process is not achieved simply by sitting through a one hour video. For most new leaders, this process takes time. A Way to Gauge Dedication I have heard it so many times, new leader A: "This training was a waste of my time. I am no nearer to understanding my position than I was before I came to the training." And yet, in the very same training, new leader B: "Boy I sure learned alot. I can't wait to get back to our troop and start implementing some of this." What do you think new leader A might do with an online version of the same training? Would they jump at the chance to spend an hour or two sitting in front of the computer going through powerpoint presentations? Would they find it more fulfilling or beneficial to watch a DVD? I like to look at trainings as a way to gauge dedication. If we start making it so easy and convenient to get the training material, we will lose the impact and the effects of those people who are dedicated enough to make the time, get to the trainings, and learn something from the experience. Yes, it is true. We will not get everyone out to training. But we will get quality leaders if they have to invest something in training (time, availability). I am all about quality, not quantity. Think of it this way... Do you want your son to have a leader who sat through an hour of online training, or do you want him to have a leader who took the necessary time to be trained well and have the attitude and spirit you expect from a good scout leader? I am not saying online trainings or packaged trainings are bad. There are some benefits. But we need to weigh those benefits against the possible losses. It's kinda like those tech schools. "You can earn your bachelors degree in just 1 year!" What is the student sacrificing in order to earn that degree in an accelerated pace? Maybe I am just naive, but I think the BSA is pretty smart. I don't think it is a mistake to present concepts a piece at a time, I think that is by design. I think new leaders should sacrifice something to get trained because it gives them the opportunity to invest into scouting. By making that investment, I feel they will be less inclined to just give up when things aren't going so smoothly. Eagle Pete

fb The 12 step intro would actually go something like this... "Hello, my name is Eagle Pete. It has been 1 month since I last volunteered for yet another position in my district..." Eagle Pete(This message has been edited by eagle-pete)

Lisa I totally agree with you and Scoutnut. Let's remember, the whole purpose behind these "regulations" is SAFETY. Don't you think it would be wise, no matter what someone calls the outing or who's in charge, that the BSA policies should be followed when kids are involved? Would it hurt to make certain that a BALOO trained adult is present? Couldn't this cover any eventualities or mishaps, regardless if it is a BSA sponsored or insured outing? I just think BSA policies are good for everyone. I realize I may be in the minority. Eagle Pete

That's funny, SSScout. Our pack did exactly the same thing. Have you been talkin' to our CC? Eagle Pete

SpongeBob Let me restate this... the Committee Chair CANNOT tell you how to run Pack Meetings. Change your presentation schedule to meet the needs of the boys. Do not seek the CC's approval, as you do not need it. A committee member should normally be assigned to fill out advancement forms. The position is called Pack Advancement Chair. If the Committee does not have an Advancement Chair, it falls on the Den Leaders to fill out their den advancement forms. I would have the Den Leaders do this until an Advancement Chair is selected. Let them know it is part of the den's responsibilities. Keeping track of these advancements keeps the den leader aware of any boys who are nearing completion of a rank. You need to know this information. You may also want to take a look at http://www.geocities.com/~pack215/cub-tracker.html This site has several advancement tracker tools fully updated to current requirements. Eagle Pete

SpongeBob You are right on the money about holding back badges. You never, never, NEVER hold back presenting a badge to a boy who has earned it. You mentioned that the CC is trained, and I do not doubt that she may have at some point attended a training, however just from what you have mentioned, it appears she is not following the program. First of all, it is not the CC's job to tell you how to run a Pack meeting or when to present badges. That is completely wrong and she needs to stop doing that. The CC's responsibility is the Committee. Your responsibility (assuming you are the Cubmaster) is Pack Meetings. The way this works is the Cubmaster lets the committee know what is needed for a given Pack Meeting and the Committee provides the necessary resources. If the CC will remain in that position for any further length of time, she either needs to be RE-trained or else she should turn over the position to someone else instead of continuing to operate the Committee incorrectly. Eagle Pete

Lisa What do you really want to do? I would start with that. I'd start with one of the scouting families that you are most interested in helping with (Cubs, Boy Scouts, Venturing, Explorers) and have a little chat with them. Find out where they need assistance and see if you can provide it. You might want to suggest to them some of your interests, such as training. Offer to help make sure everyone gets trained or at least knows where the trainings are offered. Offer to the Boy Scout or Cub Scout committees to join and be the committee member for training. These are just examples or suggestions. I don't know you. I wouldn't know where you could be the most help or where your place is. You will need to find that, but if you are involved and available, it will naturally come to you. I would be sure to stay involved though, even if it is just helping out with paperwork. Staying involved allows you to be in touch with what's happening in your pack/troop. You will become aware of needs that arise. It may take some time, but you will find something with which you are happy and comfortable. Keep On Scouting! Eagle Pete

FScouter I'm no expert on BSA legalities, nor am I a lawyer, although I play one on Scouter forums. I am not sure what you mean by your post. As I see it, once BSA policy is not adhered to, those leaders no longer fall under the protection of BSA insurance, by default. In fact, their claim that the activity is declaired "NO LONGER an officially sanctioned BSA outing" may at that point be moot. I do not see that they would have any legal case against BSA the moment they failed to adhere to BSA policy. Eagle Pete

In either scenario, it is too late. Contingency plans should have been in place before the day of the camp. Have the adults turn around and bring the boys home. Get another adult to BALOO training before you plan your next camp. If that is not possible, cancel any future camps until you have at least one more BALOO trained adult. That having been said, I have a question. Why do you require a BALOO trained adult in order to go on a campout? Is this a new BSA requirement? Last I checked the only requirements were a filed Tour Permit and at least one Youth Protection Trained adult. Please let me know if BSA requirements have changed. CORRECTION I stand corrected - "At least one adult giving leadership to a pack overnighter must complete Basic Adult Leader Outdoor Orientation (BALOO), No. 34162, and be present on campouts. BALOO trains participants to properly understand the importance of program intent, Youth Protection guidelines, health and safety, site selection, age-appropriate activities, and sufficient adult participation. Permits for campouts shall be issued locally, according to council policies. Packs use the Local Tour Permit Application, No. 34426." Reference: Basic Adult Leader Outdoor Orientation (BALOO), No. 34162 I was confused with requirements for Cub Scout outings. Overnighters are another matter. My original recommendation still stands as far as planning for camps. Eagle Pete(This message has been edited by eagle-pete)

Matt I think you will find that most staffers here on this forum, and perhaps other staffers you've known, do not consider Troop Guide to be an "entry level" position for Wood Badge Staff. In fact it is an incredibly crucial position, as we will be directly interacting with participants. Much of their experience depends directly on us. Do not take this position lightly or perceive it other than a key element to the participants' Wood Badge experience, as is surely is. I share your sentiments about the presentations as well as much of the other aspects of staffing Wood Badge. We have not yet begun Staff Development. I am, nonetheless, nervous about it. I have had other staffing experiences, but nothing to compare with Wood Badge. I hope to replace my inadequacy with confidence. Yours in Scouting Eagle Pete