dsteele

One word Italian tirade, translated for your reading pleasure:

BASTA! (ENOUGH!)

Yes, a patrol of 5 can funtion. Yes, it can be both a troop and a patrol. I would argue that 6 to 8 makes it easier to fill out a duty roster and get the job done, but there is no minimum or maximum number and probably for a reason.

Scan the manuals all you want for a policy. It isn't there.

This post isn't directed at any one individual.

I fail to see how a simple discussion on optimal patrol size can lead to so much strife and for good people to get into fights (although cyber fights) with each other.

The bottom line is that we're all in the business of producing adults. Not boys. We're in this to produce adults who follow the Scout Oath and are Trustworthy, Loyal, Helpful, Friendly, Courteous, Kind, Obedient, Cheerful, Thrifty, Brave, Clean and Reverent until their dying day.

In the end, patrol size, rank, badges, adult association, etc. are the means to that end:

Productive adults with Scout values.

Stepping off my soapbox now . . .

Unc.

I don't have many patches. I do have many embroidered, plastic-backed coasters with lots of pretty colors and designs on them!

The patches aren't precious. The memories behind them are.

Unc

(ducking and running now.)

Actually, my understanding is that the council does not pay for your new DE to go to Irving for training.

National pays for that.

As to staying in a hotel vs. staying in a tent -- I will stay in a tent as a volunteer, and do it cheerfully and willingly. But if my company were to suggest it, I'd be very unhappy.

Are you going to begrudge your DE staying in a hotel during training on national's nickle because you stay in a tent when you volunteer to go to training?

I would hope and think not.

It's probably the guy's first business trip. Why not let him enjoy it?

Unc.

"From the darkness, from the forest, come we now with words of warning. Bringing tokens of a struggle . . . as a flock of field crows flying black across the sun."

Beware of a treasurer too in love with the job. It merits a further look.

Unc.

Actually, I count all of the good people (and OGE you're prominent in that number) as my friends.

Just feeling a little frisky this Saturday.

Unc.

Pete:

Welcome to the campfire! Keep on posting, buddy! Thank you for being the one guy to try to help me out.

To the rest of you (sticking my tongue out between pinched lips and blowing, and thus making the following sound:) Ppppbbbbllltttt!

I found a new friend, I found a new friend, nah-nah-nah-nah-nah-nah!

Unc.

I think this here horse is dead. I ain't gonna give it another beatin'.

Unc.

Good advice given on the surface issue of two deep leadership for den meetings.

Let's talk for a moment (and not just to Starwolfmom) about "Starting to feel like a BSA cop."

I happen to believe that common sense has a lot to do with making Scouting fun for all -- the youth, the volunteers, the parents. However, when any one of us feel like it is our responsibility to be rule-enforcing police, we need to ask ourselves a couple of questions:

1) Is whatever I'm about to object to a safety issue? If yes, then proceed.

2) Is it a serious violation of BSA policy -- like one guy taking Scouts on a trip? OR is it a minor violation of a rule -- like wearing 5 years of quality unit patches on the sleeve.

3) Check the grand scheme of things -- is the issue there? IF not, it ain't worth the fight.

4) Will this issue, which seems minor at the moment, eventually kill our unit? An example might be an abrasive Assistant Scoutmaster. I've seen this one happen. The person loves Scouting and wants to make sure it's done right and doesn't mind making people angry along the way. Eventually he ticks off enough people that membership drops off (the parents don't want to be around him) and within a few years, the troop can barely recharter.

Okay, I'm stepping off the soap box now.

Side issue -- does anyone here feel like sometimes we're like those people on Deep Space Nine that the Bajorans would go into a trance and ask questions of? I think they called them "The Prophets."

Or are we the Collective of the Borg?

Sorry. I'm in a wierd mood this evening.

Unc.

I must have read the title of the thread in the wrong way.

My first response, OGE, was this:

My Many irons had a message for me -- "Please don't embarrass us by using us on the golf course!"

Unc.

My thanks go out to Troop 3.

My eternal gratitude goes out to Corporal Reedy and the men in Afghanistan.

Keep up the hunt, gentlemen. Our prayers are with you.

Unc.

And may God Bless the United States of America.

May my family's motto also inspire you. It is "In pugnam pro patriam." Latin for "In combat for the fatherland."

GO USA!!!

Unc.

9Ankh has been very silent since his first post.

I wonder if there's a reason.

Unc.

Turning the badge and not the kid upside down is the right idea. I like the idea of the boy having to do a good turn. However, I think that's adding to the requirements, but that's a different topic.

Turning the kid upside down reminds me of the old Scoutmaster's minute about climbing to the top of an oak tree:

There are three ways to climb to the top of an oak tree:

1) Climb it.

2) chop one down and walk to the top.

3) plant an acorn and sit on it . . .

Unc.

Do the research, Pack. Amigo, I advise you not to go beyond page two of a google search on Ankh or 9 Ankh. It gets into the occult very quickly in a very cerebral way.

It's a journey I'm sorry I took.

Most pages also tie the Ankh to the evolution of the Christrian Cross. The sunrise and the resurrection.

Someone, even if my hypothesis is off, put a lot of thought into that user name.

Unc.

I've been watching for this one, although I believe I was looking more for a pheonix analogy, but that underestimates WHEELER's ability to twist text in unusual ways.

I saw the user name 9Ankh and it rang a dim bell.

A couple of days later (today) I realized that I kind of recognized the word Ankh as ancient and that the number nine is somehow related.

If you doubt my hyposisis, do a google search on "Ankh"

It is an ancient Egyptian symbol related to resurrection.

Here's a clip from a site found at: http://www.resurrectisis.org/Number9.htm

Here's a clip from the site and it wouldn't surprise me a bit if it was/is wheeler behind it (I'm done with the all-caps. He doesn't deserve them.)

To quote from one site (there are many:)

"The Egyptian religion began with the resurrection of Assur. From that simple beginning, the idea of Assur rising from the dead led to ever more complex ideas and speculation regarding life after death. The simple sunrise symbol representing that event developed into more elaborate symbolism. The simple sunrise ankh developed into the familiar "sandal strap" ankh which became the common form in Egyptian art. The sandal strap ankh was a compound symbol that represented more than just the resurrection of Assur. It also represented his travels and works after his resurrection. Although the ankh symbol evolved into more artistic and elaborate forms, it never lost its original "sunrise" significance." The site also explains how the symbol morphed into the number "9" in Arabic.

I may be wrong, but I'm probably wrong about being wrong.

Ahh the eternal paradox.

Eh, Wheeler?

Unc.

Way back in the early eighties, I went to Philmont with the council contingent.

One of my buddies and I decided to pack those lightweight nylon hammocks.

The first night, we tied them between the outriggers of the tents at base camp. It was very comfortable, once we climbed into the wobbly things and we fell swiftly to sleep.

A couple hours later, I was awakened to a "WHUMP" as my buddie's knots slipped through the nylon rope and he dropped like a stone to the ground three feet below!

I laughed so hard, I rolled out of my own hammock and ended up on the ground next to him. Both of us said the refrain, "Oh Ow!, Oh Ow!" several times.

Being stubborn, we then got back into our hammocks and spent the rest of the night sleeping fitfully and trying not to move.

My buddy got a laugh when we again pulled out our hammocks and tied them to trees during a layover at Philmont. I was just dozing off, comfortably in my hammock, when a fly landed on my nose. I shooed it away and drifted back to sleep.

Then it landed on my nose again. Being quite annoyed, I smacked the fly -- which flew off. The pain from smacking myself on the nose with the palm of my hand caused me to roll to my right and . . .

WHUMP!

Hammocks are comfortable, but I'd just as soon start on the ground and stay there than begin in the air and make that short stop on the ground.

Unc.

Hmmmnn . . .

Perhaps subjectivity isn't always a bad thing.

Perhaps there's a reason the Scoutmaster has some discretion in signing off on service hours for Star and Life.

Just perhaps.

Unc.

OGE --

I would certainly agree that the girls should wear their Gold Award on the green shirt.

In a phrase, "it is only right."

Pounder --

I can certainly agree that anyone who earns Eagle, Silver, Apprentice, Quartermaster, and, in the case of females, the Gold Award are certainly citizens that I will take great pride in.

It's about values, gentlemen. In the interim, I fail to see how wearing a lodge flap is harmful.

Unc.

Gentlemen:

I'm not letting you off the hook that easily, although I have to say the issue doesn't mean much to me one way or the other.

Can the logic of the Crew members who agreed to not wear their lodge flaps because the Crew can not hold elections be extended?

Do you disallow the wearing of the Girl Scout Gold Award because the guys in the crew can't earn it?

Do you disallow the wearing of the Eagle Scout Award by the guys because the gals can't earn it?

Unc.

Merlyn:

I thank you, sir, for the clarification. I know understand where the post I quoted was coming from.

I agree with your reply to my inquiry except for your last paragraph. You say that the BSA values should be taught to no one.

I think you're wrong on that count, but I do appreciate your reply to my inquiry regarding the matter at hand.

Unc.

No offense intended to Eamonn.

I'm still waiting for an answer from Merlyn.

Unc.

Welcome to the forums!

I'd suggest you promote the troop and Scouting to those who are not yet involved. Your Scout Service Center can help you with flyers, etc.

I do have to admit that I'm curious as to why you photographed the young men you want to have in your troop. Are you going for "before and after" photos.

Some may find it strange to have a grown man take photographs of their sons without their consent.

Unc.

Welcome to the campfire Steve! We're always glad to pick up a new poster.

You're welcome to a cup of cyber-java and a fistful of electronic popcorn.

Join in on any conversation you please! And, no, you weren't too long winded.

Unc.

Merlyn said:

"Atheists, of course, NJCubScouter.

Oh, and you'd better cross off "criminals" from that list; here's an AP story from last month:

http://www.bradenton.com/mld/bradenton/9520769.htm

Prisoners Take Boy Scout Oath Behind Bars

BRETT BARROUQUERE

Associated Press

LA GRANGE, Ky. - Robert Jackson stood with the two dozen other members of Boy Scout Troop 825, raised his right hand in the traditional Boy Scout sign, and took the oath to do his best for God and country.

Unlike other scouts, Jackson and members of his troop aren't allowed to earn merit badges through mastering camping and other outdoor skills.

That's because they are prison inmates.

"We're trying to teach more long-term planning, how to live when they get out," said Mike Pitzer, who serves as adviser and scout master to the troop at the Kentucky State Reformatory.

The inmates are part of a rehabilitation program for emotionally and mentally disturbed prisoners serving time for everything from murder to sex crimes.

... "

I have quoted the post in its entirety and will still probably be accused of taking it out of context.

I simply don't understand what point he was trying to make.

I don't have a problem with the BSA trying to teach Scouting's values to prisoners. In fact, if asked, I would probably donate to such a cause.

Merlyn's response appears in the "Homosexuals in Scouting" thread currently active (again) in the "Issues and Politics" forum.

I have no idea why I bother to read that one.

Of course I would welcome a response from Merlyn, but I'm also interested in hearing from anyone else in this matter.

Two things compete for the number one hunk of a summer camp fee -- staff salaries and food. Those are the biggest line item expenses summer camps have.

I find it ironic that those who complain about the summer camp fee being too high are the very people saying the staff doesn't make enough money. I haven't seen the cost complaint in this thread, so obviously that doesn't apply to you.

If you want to pay the staff more, the fees have to go up. Yes, it's true that the council may charge fees for training, etc. and other year-round use (if the property is accessible, which isn't always the case,) but often those funds only help the year-round camp costs balanace the year round expenses such as Ranger, Ranger's home, taxes, maintenance, etc.

Room and Board costs may be irrelavant to the teen working on staff, but they have to be factored in to the camp budget. The parents of those teens know how much they can eat and are used to paying for that cost, but do you think those teens with their locust like appetites eat any less when they're working at camp?

As to dollar amounts you pay, it's all well and good to have a standardized scale, but I think that can lead to trouble.

For example, perhaps the Camp Director is a teacher who is only looking for something to do during the summer. His/her salary keeps coming, so they elect to work for little or no pay. However, your 21 year old Waterfront Director, with no experience other than National Camp School, may need, actually need, to make $300 per week or he/she can't afford to work at camp.

I think camp staff salaries need to be kept confidential and that this should be taught during staff week. The only two people in camp who should know what any individual is making are the individual and the Camp Director -- and, perhaps, the Business Manager who gets the checks cut.

Now, it is possible that the staff problems at the camp in Eamonn's council could be solved if the fee were increased from $160 per week to $260. However, I would guess that attendance would drop because of the increased fee, which drives up food costs and lessens the need for staff.

Ever play Simm City? Each choise yields different problems. Yu have to pick your battles and you must chose wisely.

Just a couple of thoughts.

Unc.

I have an Uncleguinea groupie? Amazing.

Actually, John, the only thing I would suggest about the twine is to put some strings of duct tape, or other shiny sticky stuff about three feet apart along the line.

Twine is nearly impossible to see in the dark or in the shadows without something that reflects the light on it.

Wouldn't want adults flipping over it or Cub Scouts choking on it, would we?

Unc.

Ps -- that imitation was taken as the sincerest form of flattery. Please don't tell me if I'm wrong.

UG