dsteele

Good list of resources being generated here.

I will point out (clearing my throat) that the resources provided to every troop by Friends of Scouting that should also be listed as necessary for a good Scoutmaster to have as a ready reference:

1 -- the latest issue of your council's newsletter. Provided to you by the council which lists what's going on, new programs, training information, etc.

2 -- the council program calendar which lists dates of training, activities, roundtables, etc.

3 -- The handouts from the last roundtable

4 -- the names and phone numbers of the current district leadership: including the district chairman, district commissioner, training chairman, advancement chairman, finance chairman, your unit commissioner, etc.

The published manuals of the BSA are excellent. However, this message is a commercial aimed to make sure you're using your local resources to your best advantage.

Unc.

Yes, I have a real-life example of "when it did not work." Actually, depending on your point of view, it may have worked . . . in the end.

This is not an example of the BSA program failing, merely one of the BSA's methods of selecting leadership.

Eamonn -- reading your last post, I'm thinking that perhaps you should have gone to bed half an hour earlier

Okay -- on to the example.

When I first got married and my wife and I joined a church, it's troop was failing. They were down to a fistful of boys and had no committee chairman or scoutmaster. They had a charter rep and the parents of the three boys.

None of the parents were willing to be scoutmaster, but all were willing to help.

We got a copy of selecting troop leaders -- or whatever that BSA publication is called and we took the steps.

A selection committee was formed.

A list of desired qualities was developed.

From there, we prioritized 10 names of people within the small congregation who we felt would be a good Scoutmaster. We didn't say no for anoyne . . .

Anyone that is, except me. For some reason, or reasons, the group wanted me to do it. I turned them down . . . I had enough on my plate as Committee Chairman.

At any rate, the Charter Rep and I then made appointments with #1 candidate and his wife, and went to see them. No soap. He had neither the time nor the inclination to be Scoutmaster.

Same with @2, #3, #4, #5, #6, #7, #8, #9, and (I bet you can guess this one) #10.

Did the advice and selecting leadership plan from the BSA fail for us. Some would say it did. I can tell you that after 10 NO answers, it sure feels like the program failed.

Now . . . before anyone types down my throat, let me share with you the actual ending of this story and you can tell me if it failed or not.

I said that I came out as the first choice for Scoutmaster.

Well, guess who, after 10 asks, ended up taking the job and holding it for three years until the troop had 21 boys, four assistant Scoutmasters, a new Scoutmaster, and new equipment.

Me.

I guess I could have saved myself and the CR some serious time if I'd just said yes in the first place and gotten to work.

My point of this story is that the BSA program does work. Is it always perfectly executed? No. Does that mean we're bad volunteers? Not always. Should we give up and do our own thing even after 10 tries? No. Keep trying to make it work.

No one ever achieves perfection -- but some get pretty darn good. Only those that do not seek it are doomed to fail.

Unc.

First of all, congrats on getting a 7th grader interested in joining a troop! That's not easy.

Now, remember, a 7th grader is not a boy. He's a young adult and capable of making his own choices.

I'd begin by asking him what he's looking for in Boy Scouting. Is it advancement -- then find a troop that makes that it's focus. Is he interested in camping -- then find a troop that goes camping every month (or more!) Does he want to be in with a lot of boys? Or a smaller troop?

Your district commissioner or district executive can help him find the answers once the young man decides the questions. Better still, call the scout office, let them know what you're up to, and ask for a list of Scoutmasters. Let the young man call and interview them and then make his decision.

Remember, if he doesn't like the troop, he can transfer to another for a buck.

Unc.

I'm not sure if anyone has noticed, but I'm not interested in theoretical debate. I'm not interested in what doesn't work.

The above has nothing to do with this thread.

Now I'm going to respont to 22t3rd's post about what to do about Cub Scouts who don't show up.

I was part of a Kiwanis club several years ago. They had not only a membership committee, but also a "remember" committee. The job of the remember committee was to call the members who hadn't shown up to the weekly meeting for a while and say,"Unc, we haven't seen you for a while. Is everything okay? We miss you. Will you be at the meeting next Tuesday? We'd love to see you and catch up with you."

I had missed several meetings (three) and was starting to get into the mode of skipping them. I was afraid that my lack of attendance would be criticized. I know that if time had gone by, it would have been easier and easier to not be part of the group.

In things like Kiwanis and Scouting, people don't generally quit. They tend to slip away. Other things begin to fill the time and guilt makes the separation fonder (if you know what I mean.)

I would suggest this, even in the case of missing Cub Scouts:

An adult call the parents.

The denner of the den call the kid.

Adult to adult, youth to youth. The adult won't say to the Cub "where have you been?" but the kid will.

Is this using peer pressure. Yes. It is. But so is the good conduct candle, the patrol method, and youth leadership in Venturing . . . but in a good way.

I know. I always get beat up when I suggest that the BSA uses peer pressure, but the fact of the matter is that it does.

Unc.

Some of you may recall that I started a thread looking for a 1970's wool uniform.

Well, with the help of that thread, I was able to obtain it. I usually wear the current version of the wool uniform (kaki shirt with sport collar, trouser pants with no elastic -- it really is a nice uniform.)

The 1970's wool uniform, I thought, looks sharper and wears better. It does wear better and the one I got was in near-mint condition.

However, when I wore it to the council's venturing roundtable, I discovered that it's not all that comfortable in today's setting. In fact, the matching shirt and pants, to my now adult eyes made me look rather WWII. I thought it was cool looking, but definately an anachronism. I had to explain to several people at the Venturing Roundtable (there were youth there and most had no experience in Scouting prior to 1980) what I was wearing.

I may have better luck at the district Roundtable next Wednesday. There's lots of older guys there . . .

Unc.

$5,000 in two years is a serious bleeding of funds. I think you're all correct in surmising that the basic bookeeping that needs to be done by a unit was not being done.

Not condoning the actions of the defendant -- there can be none of that behavior. However, sometimes embezzelers don't even realize they're doing it. They may "borrow" from someone else's fund with every intent of paying it back. It may begin with writing yourself a $20 check to tide the family over for groceries until payday . . . and you never get around to paying it back. Then, it happens again . . . and pretty soon you're in over your head.

I've run into people with money problems through work who have fallen into that trap.

Unc.

I know the patch of which you speak.

It was a temporary patch and was a joint venture between the Southwest Michigan Council (office in Kalamazoo) and Kellogg. It was supposed to have a value of about $500 at the time.

There are patch collector's guides out there with prices. Perhaps that patch is listed. I do believe, however, that the patch never hit the value expected at the time of production.

While it is rare (and I'm not a patch trader, I just remember that particular patch) it was meant to be a temporary patch. The value of those never seem to climb very high.

This may be a patch that is a better coaster for your cold beverage than it is a source of retirement income.

Sorry to be the bringer of potentially bad tidings. I do appreciate the memory of that patch. My old man had one on the coffee table in the 1980's. We used it as a coaster.

Unc.

Pounder --

Sorry. Just having a little bit of fun on a Thursday evening.

I knew what you meant, but it was too easy to pick the fruit.

Unc.

Trail Pounder:

You said,

"Our Ship's Boatswain starts both ways on the football team, is academically at the top of his class, and is a varsity wrestler. When we got our 22' Sailboat he landed on the front page of the newspaper in Sea Scout Uniform, in color, practicing raising the sails. The whole county knows he's a Scout, he walks to and from the Legion for meetings in Sea Scout uniform and never has shown or expressed any embarrassment. With an example like that, the younger shipmates, wear their uniforms without any difficulty too. "

So your Boatswain plays both ways, eh? (Grin . . . Laugh . . . ) Running for cover!

Unc.

Bug:

I'm not going to let you off the hook that easily. Your conscience is tingling and I have a feeling your mind won't rest until you know for sure.

Go to your council service center. Tell them you're researching the Eagle Scout history of your toop and ask to look at the records. Since the eagle in question was earned in 1994, they very probably have a record of when it was sent to National and when it came back. Ask to see the records as far back as they can reach and begin to make a list.

If you do this, you won't have to confront the young man, and you may well find some other names missing from the troop honor roll.

Do what you're going to do, free advice is worth what you pay for it.

Unc.

One of the funniest moments I had as a Boy Scout came on the first polar bear campout I attended.

There were a couple of feet of snow on the ground. We were all sitting around the campfire in the late afternoon. We were sitting on bales of hay.

The Scoutmaster's bale of hay somehow caught on fire behind him. We shouted "Mr. B! Your seat is on fire!"

I never saw the man move more quickly. The flames were shooting up over his shoulder from behind.

He jumps up, rolls the bail in the snow and puts out the fire. (Or so he thought.)

Five minutes later, he's sitting there as calm as can be and we shouted "Fire! Mr. B! You're on fire again!"

He didn't believe us. It took him until he felt the heat up his back to move at hyper-speed again.

I still smile when I think about that one.

Unc.

Go for it!

Unc.

Kristi:

If I may borrow a bit from the movie "Stripes."

Yes, Scouters are weird. We're weird. We're really, really WEIRD!

We care about other people's kids. We spend our time to develop them.

Aside from being weird, which is not necessarily a bad thing, we're rule-followers. We have rules with which we deal with our need to help other people's kid.

We're on a mission -- to instill in young people the values to make ethical choices over their lifetime. The values we seek to instill are those found in the Scout Oath and Law.

I know I've mis-quoted the current version of the mission of the BSA, but I'm off in the right direction.

It's what we do.

Welcome aboard!

Unc

I applaud your sentiment, sir. I applaud it to the point that my forhead rests on my right knee as I doff my hat and bow to you for creating the piece.

Eagle Scout class of 1979.

Unc.

Cubbingcarol:

If the new den leader takes fast start on-line or watches the video, he/she has an excellent overview of how to conduct a den meeting. There is also a nationally produced packet for new den leaders that contains the first two months of program helps that explains how to run a den meeting and what to do.

Perhaps the den leader never received the packet. This would be the fault of the district or council. If they never read the packet, this would be the fault of the den leader.

In any case, the new leader's essential training would not cover how to run a den meeting -- it is designed for new leaders to Cub Scouting, Boy Scouting, or Venturing -- and not for crafts.

Unc.

Yeah -- this is a spin-off. Not one of anger, but hopefully one of illumination.

I'm going to relate this thread to my sky-diving experience. There isn't much experience. One jump was enough for me.

My knowledge of sky-diving before that day was that a parachute, a plane, and the ground are involved and that all are key pieces to making it happen.

We went through 8 hours of training. I have to tell you that when the time came to let go of the wing strut . . . I didn't feel like the training had done anything for me.

It must have, though. I'm still here.

It's a similar deal with any BSA position. You go to the basic training and you get a lot of information very quickly.

In new leader essentials, you learn the mission of the Boy Scouts of America, methods, etc. You're also shown "a bunch of books" containing the specific information some may have thought they would get in the training.

I think that sometimes people enter a BSA training thinking they're going to walk out with all the knowledge of the BSA. I once had a lady in a unit that I'm commissioner for call me at 10:00 PM after a training and yell at me. When she went to Avon (makeup and perfume sales) training, she felt like she knew everything there is to know about Avon. But when she left the BSA training, she felt like she knew nothing except where to look.

Well, guess what, Scouting is more complicated than Avon. The BSA deals with people, not pigments. There's a whole lot to learn.

I think that if you leave a BSA training with a better idea of where you find and how to use the materials that are available, it's well worth the few hours and couple of bucks you spent in obtaining it.

Going back to the parachute analogy -- you're going to hit the ground. Either hit it running or in a splot.

What do you think?

Unc.

John:

So your question comes down to "what's the best position I can take in the pack to help fix the situation?" That's what it seems like to me.

My answer -- is . . .

Any one of them. Den leader, Committee Chair, COR, parent, whatever.

My previous answer was an attempt to refer to difference between what is supposed to be and what may be. That would be the difference between what the book says is supposed to happen and what actually is the case. Hence the differentiation between "hypothetical and reality."

The by the book answer is, become the COR. Then you could appoint whatever leaders you select (with the approval of the chartered organization.)

You could become the Committee Chair. Then you're responsible for approving all leaders (unless the CR chooses to sign off on them without you.)

What I'm getting at is the difference between position and influence.

Position without action = not much

Influence without position = pretty much.

You mentioned peer pressure. Interesting stuff, peer pressure. It's what drives the good conduct candle, (in many ways) the patrol method, and our volunteer structure.

So what's to prevent you from using it in the pack, regardless of whether you're a den leader, Cubmaster, Committee Chair, Chartered Rep or a parent?

Ask some questions -- politely. Such as, "Don't you think our boys deserve trained leaders? The next training is . . ." (This won't work if you bash the training.)

Ask about when the next committee meeting will happen. Offer to teach your fellow den leaders how to use the Program Helps. Heck, tell them you didn't get as much out of the last training you attended as you wanted to, and offer to drive them to the next one so you can get the rest of your questions answered.

Now that I've attempted to make my point with logic, kindly allow your old Uncle to give you an illustration in the form of a true story:

I was the Scoutmaster of a troop for a while. When I took it over, it had 2 boys. Here's the story of how I ended up no longer being the Scoutmaster.

In the day when I took over as Scoutmaster, there was no real CR or Committee chair. I talked to the church, of which I was a member, and we recruited a CR. Then a committee chairman.

Since I had recruited them, they did what I told them to do. Not the way it's supposed to go, but that was the reality.

Fast forward 3 years -- the troop picked up 18 webelos and their parents.

One day, an Assistant Scoutmaster called me. He was one of the parents of the new Webelos in the troop. He said, "I was reading the Scoutmaster handbook you gave me. Do we have PLC's?"

I said, "No. We should, but I just don't have time." He couldn't see it over the phone, but he was playing into my hands.

He said, "I could host one. We could have it at our house. If you'll help me with the agenda, I'm sure we can make it happen."

The guy didn't know it at the time, but he was well on his way to being a Scoutmaster. Three months later, I was out and he was in . . . which was by design.

Anyone in the unit can affect change within the unit. For good or ill, we are all volunteers in units.

My advice -- don't nag or try to take over, but make suggestions that work and bring all the tools you can get into play. Things will begin to turn around or fall apart. Those really are the two options.

It's axiomatic -- if you do something, things will either get better or get worse. IF they get better, you're part of the solution. If not . . .

Gonna spin off this thread and get into the training thought . . .

Unc.

Bob:

Thanks for clarifying what I said in the first place in fewer words.

I don't need to check my syllabus. What I said was correct, but too wordy.

Unc.

I'll admit that the title of this thread leads one to think it should be two topics, but I've combined it into one because I think they're related. Please feel free to spin off (as if you don't already) if you'd like.

I find these things in common among the posters:

1) We all have an interest in Scouting. Positive or negative, we all have an interest in Scouting.

2) We all have some degree of computer knowledge.

3) We're all alive, breathing and have feelings.

4) We're all good at something in Scouting

5) We can all contribute something to the discussion.

I find these things are why we are here:

#1-5 above

2) We'd like some fellowship

3) We'd like other's input

4) It fills the time . . . reading and writing

5) We're nuts

Thoughts?

Unc.

They register as an Assistant Den Leader. Just put in DA in the code box and write Assistant Den Leader. If you do that, the person will be registered. I don't know that they'll recive Program Helps in their Scouting Magazine, but at least they'll be registered.

I think previous posters got confused. There is a way to register as an assistant webelos den leader, and a cub scout assistant den leader -- but Tiger Cubs are not broken into their own group.

I think that's a good thing. Tiger Cubs are Cub Scouts.

Unc.

I love it when someone tosses a soft ball, like Free Bird did:

"Since the scouts are a non-profit 501©(3)corp., is there any way a parent can ask to see the financial records of the council? I do not believe there is any unethical conduct with the spending of monies, I am just curious to know what their budget is and what costs are incurred from our Pack. I would like to know this before I make a contribution to the council."

This one should be pretty easy -- I hope so.

Call your council office and ask for an FOS brochure. They probably have plenty. There's usually a graphic showing the budget of the council -- income and expenses. Also ask how many packs, troops, and crews are in the council.

Grab a calculator and it won't be long before you figure out what it costs the council to support a new unit.

Thank you for your consideration of a donation. Now I can tell my DE I did my FOS work for the day

Unc.

Mallway:

I do feel your pain, although you may wonder if I truly do when you finish reading this post. Believe me, it is meant to get you thinking and not to offend (I hope it does the former, but not the latter:)

Roundtable may be 40 miles away for you. That is not uncommon in the BSA, especially in rural areas. However, you can probably be there in under an hour if you have a vehicle (not everyone does.) Try going to a roundtable as the others have advised. I'd suggest taking a car-load of as many of your pack people if you can. Roundtable is one method the council/district provide information and support.

At roundtable, you can expect (not wish for; expect) information on upcoming training and events, program support ideas, fellowship with other Scouters who have been in your position, and interaction with your DE. Commissioners are there, experienced Scouters are there, and it is there that your cry for help will be met by a warm body who is probably willing to drive to your meetings to help you understand the program.

Your council/district also provide: a newsletter, perhaps a web site, training, commissioner service, a DE, phone information, etc. It's up to you to use them.

Are you registered with the BSA? Sometimes, den leaders, Webelos Den Leaders, etc. are never asked to fill out an adult application and pay the fee? If you haven't done this, then the council/district doesn't know about you. It's also possible that you did fill it out and it was incorrectly filed. A call to the council service center asking about your registration could fix the problem either way.

Please allow me to tell a little joke I heard recently that this thread reminded me of:

A hard rain fell on an Ohio town and the town started to flood.

An older man went out to his covered porch and watched the waters rise.

Soon a couple came along in a row boat, as the waters hit the third step of the porch. They said, "Hey, let us get you out of here."

The old man said, "The Lord will save me."

The couple left.

Soon the waters were around the old man's ankles. A man in a canoe came by and said, "Old man, let me get you out of there!"

The old man said, "The Lord will save me."

The man left.

Hours later, the old man sitting on the roof, with water swirling around him, a helicopter flew overhead and dangled a ladder in front of him. "Come on! We'll get you out!" a loudspeaker from the helicopter shouted.

The old man said, "The Lord will save me!"

The helicopter flew off.

The old man was washed away and drowned.

In Heavan, St. Peter looked at the man and asked, "What are you doing here?"

The old man replied sourly, "The Lord didn't save me!"

St. Peter sighed, "We sent you a canoe, a row boat and a helicopter. What more did you want?"

I hope I'm wrong in this case, but it's been my experience that the people who feel they aren't getting help from their council or district are the ones who are (select one or more and this applies:) unwilling to drive to get assistance, don't read materials mailed to them, aren't registered for their current position, aren't trained, haven't asked, don't attend roundtable, or don't recognize help when it's there.

I wish all new people the best of luck. If you feel lost and alone, I suggest you make three phone calls -- their names and numbers will be in your council newsletter: The district commissioner, the district chairman and the district executive. Call each of the three and do what they tell you to do. Someone in the district will sit down with you and tell you what resources are available.

Godspeed!

Unc.

Looking for Group dynamics -- I have to disagree with Dear Eamonn -- they are here.

Looking for a lesson in group dynamics? I am humbly submitting one:

Any time there are more than one person -- there are group dynamics.

Group dynamics does not necessarily mean that the four phases of leadership will apply to the entire group. In other words, a loose group will form, storm, norm, and perform in pieces/parts.

For example, the group (posters in this forum:)

Form every time there is a new member. This is natural. We say welcome, then we watch to see what the individual will do. Will he/she post again? Is this another Jason or WHEELER, or another Eamonn? We all have to decide how, or if, we're going to interact with the new member. I'm sure the same questions were asked (by each individual) when you made your first post and when I made my first post.

The group storms periodically -- storming is the phase when everyone has their own idea of how any one thing should be done and can't understand why the next guy/gal can't see it the same way. This can lead to conflict. We've seen it happen with a variety of results. It's an uncomfortable phase, but not necessarily bad.

This group has it's norming times -- there are a few constants and some learning moments for all of us. Depending on the topic, we have some experts (who may not be experts on another topic) and some people who are new to it. We have a pretty good idea which senior member is going to say what and to whom and we roll with it.

That's not exactly the concept of norming -- but it is what we do here most of the time.

Performing -- as it applies to the forums, this is rare and most often occurs when someone asks a relatively easy question. The best example I can find is that long thread "So what do you do for a living?" which has carried on for lots of pages with no disagreements.

Remember: Forming, Storming, Norming, and Performing are leadership techniques -- not stages like infant, toddler, child, teen-ager, adult.

The right answer changes for each change in dynamic and each situation. No group fits neatly in any one box at any time. Performing isn't a quest -- it's a variable.

Just my thought or two on a Sunday afternoon after an NYLTC Course Director's Conference.

The new syllabus is great!

Unc.

I'm trying to get us back on track as the moderate kind of conservative guy that I am . . .

When someone in Scouting -- one of my units -- gives me a hypothetical situation and asks for my advice, they get the "by the book" answer.

When someone asks me specific questions about a real situation in one of the units that I work with, they get specific free advice (worth what they pay for it) about that specific situation -- based upon:

1) the books

2) the training I've received

3) my experiences

4) what I know about the given situation.

So which are you seeking.

If you're talking hypothetical, I'll go with Bob's answer.

If you're talking reality, I need more information.

Unc.

Eagle Foot:

I can't give you much advice here. I'm simply not knowledegeable enough about what's going on in your unit.

However, when I take criticism -- frequently, I'm afraid -- I:

1) Take a good hard look at what I've been doing. If I find even a grain of truth in the criticsm, I strive to make a change.

2) If I do NOT find merit in the criticism, I proceed in my own way.

Clear as mud, right?

Unc.