Guide to Safe Scouting- Not Official?

[OldGreyEagle]

So, I spun this from the thread on Sheath Knives, the Guide to Safe Scouting says:

 

A sharp pocketknife with a can opener on it is an invaluable backcountry tool. Keep it clean, sharp, and handy. Avoid large sheath knives. They are heavy and awkward to carry, and unnecessary for most camp chores except for cleaning fish. Since its inception, Boy Scouting has relied heavily on an outdoor program to achieve its objectives. This program meets more of the purposes of Scouting than any other single feature. We believe we have a duty to instill in our members, youth and adult, the knowledge of how to use, handle, and store legally owned knives with the highest concern for safety and responsibility.

 

Rememberknives are not allowed on school premises, nor can they be taken aboard commercial aircraft.

 

So, avoid Sheath Knives but there is no prohibition

 

Now, I am reading comments that either there is no clear policy on sheath knives, or that nothing in official BSA literature/publications mention this issue and I have to ask, Is The Guide to Safe Scouting part of BSA literature/publications or not?

 

Or because in the title it says "Guide" so it doesn't have to be followed?

 

 

[Stosh]

People can make up all kinds of rules and regulations along the way and cite all kinds of sources. Doesn't mean it's true, valid or accurate.

 

I normally carry a light-weight sheath knife and belt ax combo when I am not on scout outdoor activities and use it all the time around camp. When I am at scout activities I wear the official BSA sheath knife and belt ax combo. It's a bit heavier, but works the same. Occasionally I lend it out to some of my older boys who have been trained in it's use and I haven't ever had a problem with anyone getting hurt. Of course, they are threatened to within an inch of their lives if they use it improperly. It always amazes my boys when we all go out in the woods looking for firewood for the weekend, I always bring back more than they do. A small hand ax and hooked stave and I can always beat out the boys and their pocket knives. When we're done collecting I can also get a fire going in half the time, too. My coffee's going long before they have dragged in enough wood to even start a fire.

 

Once people get over the fact that Lizzie Borden doesn't live in the woods, and a sheath knife isn't a short-sword substitute and learn how to effectively use these woodcraft tools, it can take the boys to the next step. It really isn't much of a fire guard if the only "shovel" you have is the cat-hole trowel.

 

It might also come in handy to avoid the LNT regulations when it's a true survival situation and the only shelter one can muster up is pine bows and small trees. We don't always get to pick our life or death situations.

 

Like any guide, it is important that it isn't the quintessential answer to all scouting situations, and I'll be the first to break every rule in the book if I'm in a dangerous situation, especially when I have and know how to use every tool in my arsenal.

 

Your mileage may vary,

 

Stosh

[pchadbo]

OGE,

your rhetoric is showing! ;-)

[John-in-KC]

OK.

 

First, depending on the airport, just about anything bigger than a mounted razor blade is subject to TSA confiscation. I've lost two Swiss Army knives and two pocketknives that way. So, the operating rule is: Don't carry a knife if you're going past the security barrier.

 

Second, I don't know about your school district, but in my neck of the woods, a good way for a kid to get suspended for a week (or for an adult to be banished from the property) is to be caught with a blade...ANY BLADE...on school property. Your municipality and/or school district may and probably does have different rules.

 

So, now that we are past that ... the question is what is the Scout going to use the knife for during his camp? To my 1 kilobyte of flesh and blood memory, he should match the tool to the purpose.

 

I hope the above makes sense.

 

BTW, as stated by my Council Director of Support Services, boldface in G2SS is policy and the Council expects volunteers to follow it. Non-boldface is "best practices" and Council expects the reasonable volunteer to follow it.

[BadenP]

OGE

 

Your whole argument looses credibility if the boys plan to or even thinking about doing any fishing because you can not use a folding knife on raw fish and get it properly clean and sterile. Besides how many scouts cut their own fingers when folding their knife or trying to cut something inappropriate and the blade folds up on them, versus sliding the sheath knife back into its sheath. If the scout is properly trained a sheath knife is much more useful and versatile than a folding one on any trip into the outdoors.

[acco40]

John-in-KC - your state in lenient. In southeast Michigan, we call the public school knife policy the "you're going to school in Ohio law." It is a state law that any student with a knife (not necessarily on his person either) on school property is banned for a year from going to public school in the state.

 

This happened to a high school senior who drove his Jeep to school and left his knife in the car on the school parking lot.

[OldGreyEagle]

BadenP, I am confused, I said:

 

"avoid Sheath Knives but there is no prohibition"

 

I was repeating what the Guide to Safe scouting says "Avoid Sheath knives" and then I added "But there is no prohibition? SO obviouly one can use sheath knives.

 

If I confused you, I am sorry as I have often said there is no BSA prohibition against sheath knives which is what I think you are saying as well. Match the job to the tool and use them all safely

 

The real question is is the guide to safe scouting part of BSA literature/publications or not?

 

 

[fred johnson]

Wow. Good question. I've never heard it asked before. In my neck of scouting, G2SS is primary and supersedes all other BSA publications. If in doubt, check G2SS.

[Beavah]

Yah, I just don't get why it's so hard for people to wrap their brains around a simple concept.

 

The Guide to Safe Scouting for Unit Activities is one piece of program literature. It ain't a policy document, nor is it a "primary" resource that supersedes others. In quite a few cases, ranging from Sea Scout boating operations to aspects of Venturing to council events conducted under NCS standards to Cub Scout camping under BALOO, other documents supersede G2SS. In some sections, G2SS is relatively strong; in other cases the section is old and outdated and doesn't describe good practice. And even da bold bits (which if I recall are being eliminated) are a mix of policy, information, and recommended practice.

 

Simply put, if yeh are relying on a book... any book... to keep the lads safe then yeh aren't doing your job. What's da first rule of all BSA safety? A qualified adult, knowledgeable and experienced in the activity, shall supervise. If yeh aren't knowledgeable about knives or anything else, then yeh have to find someone who is and defer to their judgment, eh? Not quote a book.

 

Beavah

[BadenP]

Ok OGE

 

I got your point, as to your question is the G2SS official or not I do not recall a statement in the book in the preface or introduction, or anywhere that unequivocally states that these are the official policies, rules, and regulations of the BSA and must be followed exactly as written at all times for all scouting events. I think Beavah stated a while back that it is not written with the proper legalese that an "official rule book would need to have." So IMO, it is called a GUIDE therefore that is what I consider it to be and use it as such. The language in some areas is too wishy washy or open to too much interpretation to be considered official. I am sure that there are a few in here that will try to make the opposite case, however the book does not carry the imprimatur of the CSE or the Official seal of the BSA.

[Scoutfish]

Based on the part of G2SS quoted in your original post I'd say YES amd NO.

 

Yes: there is mention and therefor, a set and written policy on sheath knives.

 

No: They are not banned nor is an exact specific use stated by BSA.

 

The thing is, the policy states :

 

"Avoid large sheath knives. They are heavy and awkward to carry, and unnecessary for most camp chores except for cleaning fish."

 

So Policy says that you do not need them to peel potatoes, carve staves. slice tomatoes, or pick food from between your teeth.

 

But you may end up cleaning fish.

 

Now, it doesn't list anything else, but I am sure there are practical used for it.

I have found out on my own, that my Rapala fillet knife is a great pork roast slicer, and a great Thanksgiving Turkey carver.

 

I'd be the guy using a sheath knife to cut watermellon, cantalope, beef, peeling potatoes,removing the saftey seal off a bottle of ketchup, etc..

 

But then, I use a sheath knife more than any other knife and have become more comfortable with them than any other knife.

 

Oh yeah, my Rapala is great for filleting Flounder, spanish Mackeral, and cleaning/skinning Red Drum .

[shortridge]

Sorry in advance for the length of this post.

 

BadenP wrote:

 

"... as to your question is the G2SS official or not I do not recall a statement in the book in the preface or introduction, or anywhere that unequivocally states that these are the official policies, rules, and regulations of the BSA and must be followed exactly as written at all times for all scouting events. ... I am sure that there are a few in here that will try to make the opposite case, however the book does not carry the imprimatur of the CSE or the Official seal of the BSA."

 

Beavah wrote: "The Guide to Safe Scouting for Unit Activities is one piece of program literature. It ain't a policy document, nor is it a "primary" resource that supersedes others."

 

Okay, fellas. Maybe I'm just stupid. Maybe my reading comprehension skills are dulled today. But what is so bleeping hard to understand about the G2SS? It does contain policies - not all of them, but some of them. It is an official BSA document. Why do both of you say otherwise?

 

Here's the actual introduction to the G2SS, which spells it out sufficiently for my purposes. Boldface type is my own, added for emphasis.

 

=============================

 

The purpose of the Guide to Safe Scouting is to prepare members of the Boy Scouts of America to conduct Scouting activities in a safe and prudent manner. The policies and guidelines have been established because of the real need to protect members from known hazards that have been identified through 100 years of experience. Limitations on certain activities should not be viewed as stumbling blocks; rather, policies and guidelines are best described as stepping-stones toward safe and enjoyable adventures.

 

All participants in official Scouting activities should become familiar with the Guide to Safe Scouting and be aware of state or local government regulations that supersede Boy Scouts of America policies and guidelines. The Guide to Safe Scouting provides an overview of Scouting policies and procedures rather than comprehensive, standalone documentation. For some items, the policy statements are complete. Unit leaders are expected to review the additional reference material cited prior to conducting such activities.

 

In situations not specifically covered in this guide, activity planners should evaluate the risk or potential risk of harm, and respond with action plans based on common sense, community standards, the Boy Scout motto, and safety policies and practices commonly prescribed for the activity by experienced providers and practitioners.

 

=============================

 

Again: Simple. The G2SS makes no claim to being the be-all and end-all of Scouting safety rules or guidelines. Nor does it state that everything written in its pages must be followed at all times - some items are policies, some are guidelines. That is straightforward enough for me.

 

I can't even understand why this thread was started, unless I missed OGE's subtle sarcasm.

[OldGreyEagle]

for all you Horror film and Jack Nicholson fans, I have to do this based on Scoutfish's post

 

Red Drum, Red Drum, Red Drum, Red Drum, Red Drum, Red Drum, Red Drum, Red Drum, Red Drum, Red Drum, Red Drum

 

ok thats enough and now onto the regularly scheduled program

 

I was perusing the Guide to SAfe Scouting and Gosh and Begorrah I found this in the Preface

 

All participants in official Scouting activities should become familiar with the Guide to Safe Scouting and be aware of state or local government regulations that supersede Boy Scouts

of America policies and guidelines. The Guide to Safe Scouting provides an overview of Scouting policies and procedures rather than comprehensive, standalone documentation. For some items,

the policy statements are complete. Unit leaders are expected to review the additional reference material cited prior to conducting such activities.

 

In situations not specifically covered in this guide, activity planners should evaluate the risk or potential risk of harm, and respond with action plans based on common sense, community

standards, the Boy Scout motto, and safety policies and practices commonly prescribed for the activity by experienced providers and practitioners.

 

Beavah was right, just a second, I'll wait until the shock wears off... ok thats enough, the Guide to SAfe scouting is

 

"an overview of Scouting policies and procedures rather than comprehensive, standalone documentation"

 

thatt whole second paragraph sounds like Beavah could have written it especially the

 

"safety policies and practices commonly prescribed for the activity by experienced providers and practitioners."

 

So, good thats enough for me for now

 

 

[Scoutfish]

[Scoutfish]

So it all comes down to common sense...which is.....in short supply!