Imprimis

[SeattlePioneer 144]

Well Kudu,

 

I guess your references prove that courts do in fact issue pronouncements about issues when they are called to do so.

 

But none of the references you provide support the claims you keep making.

 

In particular---

 

"No, I did not. The Congressional Charter does not forbid new stuff, as long as the new stuff does not replace the original Scoutcraft stuff. "

 

 

Do you have a court citation to support your position on that issue? Or is that just your personal opinion?

 

 

And what exactly do you mean by "the original Scoutcraft stuff"? I don't see that described in detail in the Congressional charter.

 

It appears that your troop doesn't use uniforms dating from the style worn in 1916, and you dote on camoflage patterns and such. Isn't that replacing "the original Scoutcraft stuff"? What! No leggings?!

 

 

And why your antagonism towards Cub Scouts which was "new stuff does not replace the original Scoutcraft stuff"? Is Cub Scouts therefore something you think authorized under the 1916 charter but just isn't justified on it's merits?

 

Suppose I suggest that "scoutcraft" refers to the skills used by infantry troops in managing their day to day lives in the field ---- pretty much what Baden Powell had in mind I'd say. If we adopt that definition then "scoutcraft" has changed and adapted to new methods, equipment and practices. Rather than cooking over a fire, scoutcraft might better involve the methods of preparing an "MRE" in the field.

 

Do you have a court decision you can cite that suggests that "scoutcraft" was frozen in time in 1916 rather than something that would be adapted to new methods and technologies as they developed?(This message has been edited by seattlepioneer)

[packsaddle 753]

I have several photos of my father and his brothers back in the early part of the last century. The youngest boy was wearing a gown (what most of us would call a 'dress' these days). Not that this has any relevance other than to illustrate how many things have changed since that time, some for the better (Kudu would agree, I suspect, that the virtual eradication of many diseases is a good thing).

I like cub scouts. Nevertheless I just have to enjoy a good laugh when Kudu states his position on the cubs. I think he's wrong but I do appreciate the fact that he is out there to state that view and then is 'up to' defending it mightily. Same for some of the things he states about scouting. Actually, I remember being a scout, more in line with the spirit of Kudu's view than with current practice. So I am very sympathetic with his view, envious a bit...and wishing to be able to go back to those days. I am also glad that he puts into practice - that which he preaches. The boys in this unit, or in this area for that matter, would benefit from some of those things. Most of them would likely turn away but there would be a few whom I am sure would embrace the Kudu way.

Somewhere along the line, the leaders and parents in this area have made the decision that the programs as they deliver are the ones they want for their families. This is a reflection of current society and its illusions. And that's just the way it's going to be.

I hope I get to stumble upon Kudu's boys out in the wilderness someday. I will gladly hold that image in my mind knowing those boys are getting many of the memories that I have...and then I will melt quietly into the forest to savor them.

Happy New Year

[moosetracker 132]

I guess the missing ingredient for me to the 1916 Charter is level of.. More hurt over time is not anything in the Charter, it is just that the "level of" is alot less today, but other then that it is all still there.

 

We teach Scoutcraft.. The level of is not as it was, does that mean we have violated it?

We teach patriotism and kindred virtues the level of back , doubt it..

Now courage & self-relience?? I guess if you take a boy who is scared about standing in the rain and has never had a single thought that Mom & Dad have not fed him.. We will teach that too.. Problem is the level of courage & self-relance they start with when the walk into the door, and the level that we teach them is not the same as in the past.

 

The ability for the boys to do things for themselves and others.. Again to what level.. Obviously "do things for themselves and others" meant alot more back then then it does now.. But based on the Society we are in, they will be able to do something for themselves and others that is new that they will get from scouts..

 

Now "using the methods that were in common use by boy scouts on June 15, 1916".. This is probably a "No".. Unfortunately again this has been damaged by the society and the mentallity of the Parents.. The world is more dangourous place, the wide open spaces to have "adventures" have shrunk and are limited to what you can walk on without "trespassing".. The parents have gotten more fearful, due to the true world, and the fictitional world that they see in movies.. Also parents are a) wanting to bubble wrap their children b) wanting to make all the decisions for the children c) want their children to feel they are "special" and "brillent" without really being so, in the hopes the sheer belief will be some sort of self-fullfilment..

 

Unfortunately I fear Kudu has to be a born salesman both with his style of presentation at the high school, and his follow-up calls to squeeze out of todays society enough scouts fill his troop.. Most troops would fold if National as of tommorrow did a complete about face and dictated that from this time forward we were going back to the old method.

 

As for new stuff.. As long as it doesn't interfer with the Boy Scouts program I guess it can be added.. As I have stated, I don't think cub scouts is all that bad.. For most of the units what few transfer over from Pack to troop is what most troops depend on with a trickle or two who come in by friend recruitment.. Does the cub scout mentality hurt the Boy scout mentality.. Probably.. But more so I think just todays society has hurt the entire mentality of not only scouts, but school programs and other after school programs as well.

 

Venturing & Sea Scouts.. I have no arguement, although they may detract boys from being in boy scouts, they still offer a program based on the scouting principles.

 

Sorry though Seattle.. Soccor though I will argue does not fit in, Adding team sports to BSA just for the sake of numbers of youth registered rather then looking at the value it offers to the scouting movement, is just wrong. There is nothing in it that is based on the Scouting principles..

 

I will agree with Kudu that the Mazzuca statement side by side with an adult of good character, you're going to learn about who you are and go on to lead men is against the scout methods.. We are more to get the scouts to work with each other, their patrol mates in order to learn who they are and go on to lead men..

 

Who says because I am a registered scouter, and put on a uniform, I am of any better character then my next door neighbor, or my co-worker?? I would hope I am of better charactor then the guy robbing your stero out of your car..

 

So why would spending a day with me on a camping trip be of more importance then going fishing with your Uncle? Why is my charactor better then his?

[skeptic 997]

I have pretty much just watched this conversation with the Kudu pronouncements, but feel I need to point out one or two things. First of all, there continues to be this idea that somehow earning scout ranks in the early days was far more difficult than today, and required more abilities in the "traditional" scoutcraft area. While to some extent, especially on the First Class level, that is true. But, especially at tenderfoot, it was not much different than today, perhaps even simpler. Here are the 1911 requirements for the first three levels; remember that Life, Star, and Eagle were basically glorified merit badge recognitions then.

 

Tenderfoot

To become a scout a boy must be at least twelve years of age and must pass a test in the following:

1. Know the scout law, sign, salute, and significance of the badge.

2. Know the composition and history of the national flag and the customary forms of respect due to it.

3. Tie four out of the following knots: square or reef, sheet-bend, bowline, fisherman's, sheepshank, halter, clove hitch, timber hitch, or two half hitches.

He then takes the scout oath, is enrolled as a tenderfoot, and is entitled to wear the tenderfoot badge.

 

Second-Class Scout

To become a second-class scout, a tenderfoot must pass, to the satisfaction of the recognized local scout authorities, the following tests:

1. At least one month's service as a tenderfoot.

2. Elementary first aid and bandaging; know the general directions for first aid for injuries; know treatment for fainting, shock, fractures, bruises, sprains, injuries in which the skin is broken, burns, and scalds; demonstrate how to carry injured, and the use of the triangular and roller bandages and tourniquet.

3. Elementary signaling: Know the semaphore, or American Morse, or Myer alphabet.

4. Track half a mile in twenty-five minutes; or, if in town, describe satisfactorily the contents of one store window out of four observed for one minute each.

5. Go a mile in twelve minutes at scout's pace about fifty steps running and fifty walking, alternately.

6. Use properly knife or hatchet.

7. Prove ability to build a fire in the open, using not more than two matches.

8. Cook a quarter of a pound of meat and two potatoes in the open without the ordinary kitchen cooking utensils.

9. Earn and deposit at least one dollar in a public bank.

10. Know the sixteen principal points of the compass.

 

First-Class Scout

To become a first-class scout, the second-class scout must pass the following tests:

1. Swim fifty yards.

2. Earn and deposit at least two dollars in a public bank.

3. Send and receive a message by semaphore, or American Morse, or Myer alphabet, sixteen letters per minute.

4. Make a round trip alone (or with another scout) to a point at least seven miles away (fourteen miles in all), going on foot or rowing boat, and write a satisfactory account of the trip and things observed.

5. Advanced first aid: Know the methods for panic prevention; what to do in case of fire and ice, electric and gas accidents; how to help in case of runaway horse, mad dog, or snake bite; treatment for dislocations, unconsciousness, poisoning, fainting, apoplexy, sunstroke, heat exhaustion, and freezing; know treatment for sunburn, ivy poisoning, bites and stings, nosebleed, earache, toothache, inflammation or grit in eye, cramp or stomach ache and chills; demonstrate artificial respiration.

6. Prepare and cook satisfactorily, in the open, without regular kitchen utensils, two of the following articles as may be directed. Eggs, bacon, hunter's stew, fish, fowl, game, pancakes, hoe-cake, biscuit, hardtack or a "twist," baked on a stick; explain to another boy the methods followed.

7. Read a map correctly, and draw, from field notes made on the spot, an intelligible rough sketch map, indicating by their proper marks important buildings, roads, trolley lines, main landmarks, principal elevations, etc. Point out a compass direction without the help of the compass.

8. Use properly an axe for felling or trimming light timber; or produce an article of carpentry or cabinet-making or metal work made by himself. Explain the method followed.

9. Judge distance, size, number, height and weight within 25 per cent.

10. Describe fully from observation ten species of trees or plants, including poison ivy, by their bark, leaves, flowers, fruit, or scent; or six species of wild birds by their plumage, notes, tracks, or habits; or six species of native wild animals by their form, color, call, tracks, or habits; find the North Star, and name and describe at least three constellations of stars.

11. Furnish satisfactory evidence that he has put into practice in his daily life the principles of the scout oath and law.

12. Enlist a boy trained by himself in the requirements of a tenderfoot.

 

Checking with the later requirements from late teens, and early 20's, not too much was changed. (referred to 1911, 1913, 1914, 1917, & 1925 BSHB's). Tenderfoot remained the same, and only minor things changed in 2ndC and 1stC. One of the things we should take note of, is that "starting a fire" NEVER required using anything but "two matches". The other no match skills were discussed and encouraged as additional skills, but were never an actual requirement. This, of course, reflects the use of "commonly available" technology of the period. The same is reflected in some of the merit badges of the period, which changed with the improvements of the period, and of course, first aid, which had many ideas then that would be cause for serious alarm today, or at least good laughs. Think rolling a drowning victim on a barrel, or using tourniquets for snake bite. Also, in the early period, it was important to know about runaway horses and mad dogs, as that was a common problem then, and much less was known about rabies. Should we still be teaching these things? Of course not.

 

Finally, just for info, B.P. introduced the British version of Cubbing in 1916. "He" saw the need for the younger boy program even then.

 

Perhaps some individuals need to get out of the forest of misconception and actually look at the trees.(This message has been edited by skeptic)

[SeattlePioneer 144]

Hello Packsaddle,

 

 

Usually I'l the one who's the curmudgeon, stubbornly holding on to the traditions of the past. So defending the new is a rare position for me to be in.

 

That's due to the grating way Kudu makes and defends his positions. I find his claims about the Scout charter to be dogmatic in the extreme and I doubt very much the dogmatism is justified by the facts. I think they are the product of Kudu's imagination and wishful thinking.

 

That's what I see the current debate to be about --- is Kudu's claims about the Scout charter defensible based on the facts or his own personal interpretation.

 

Once we start discussing programs on their merits, I am glad to hear anyone's criticisms of the program. I enjoy discussing a wide variety of Scouting issues.

 

 

[SeattlePioneer 144]

Hello Moosetracker,

 

 

I agree with your line of argument.

 

Personally, I doubt very much that the portions of the Scout charter that so concern Kudu have any legal force to speak of. The charter is a typical act of Congress to recognize organizations doing good things and to encourage them to keep at it.

 

The idea that it dictates and sharply restricts the program as suggested by Kudu has no basis in fact that I have seen.

 

 

And in any case, the "methods of Scouting" referred to in the charter are the kind you describe in your post, things like advancement, uniforming, adult (male) association and the other methods of Scouting which remain part of the Scouting program.

 

It is the methods of Scouting as they are in 1916 that are being recommended for preservation in the charter by my reading of it. And that we continue to do, by and large.

 

I see no reason why "scoutcraft" should remain as it was in 1916. After all, Baden Powell was the very image of a Modern Major General at the time, using the latest methods of organizing and training troops when he was a commander.

 

"Scoutcraft" as in the skills of infantry troops has evolved hugely in subsequent decades as new technologies have arrived on the scene. Instead of trying to hang on to obsolete methods, perhaps we should be regreting that we don't take Scout patrols into the wilderness via helecopter with the Patrol Leader leading the way rapelling down into remote areas.

 

Indeed, it seems that Kudu's program includes SCUBA diving, which might be an example of just that kind of program.

 

From Kudu's own description of his program, he chooses which elements of old timey "scoutcraft" he preserves and which new elements he adapts. The Scouting program he doesn't like does the same thing, only makes different choices than Kudu.

 

I don't see how Kudu can reasonably condemn BSA in principle when Kudu is doing the same thing. Criticism on the merits of those choices is quite a different thing.

 

(This message has been edited by seattlepioneer)

[desertrat77 1144]

In my studies, I came away with the impression that cub program was created to occupy the many young boys who were chomping at the bit to join boy scouts, but weren't old enough to do so. So cubbing gave them some age-appropriate activities and prepped them for the boy scout adventure on the horizon.

 

This outlook matches my cub days in the early '70s. From bobcat to arrow of light, the program was short and sweet, particularly Webelos. Webs was 1 year long, run superbly, and focused on all of us being ready to be boy scouts just as soon as we were eligible. We were treated like big boys and we loved it.

 

Cubbing then turned into an apron-strings program, arts/crafts, sedentary, too long, too focused inward, and an end to itself rather than a launching program to boy scouts. Recent improvements have been made, which are good. But 2 years in Webelos? I can't imagine why that's necessary, unless it was empire building effort on the part of the cubbing community, from National downward.

 

Regardless, "adventure" is the missing piece in boy scouting. Once we started downplaying adventure in the '70s, what was the hurry to leave cubs and join a scout troop? You're still going to lots of meetings in the church basement, and listening to people talk--you are just wearing a different uniform.

 

 

[acco40 95]

Don't forget that the BSA is a business. Cub Scouts offer a very lucrative cash flow. Marketing has shown that interest wanes as the boys get older so the whole program - Boy Scouts and Cub Scouts keep gravitating to younger aged boys.

 

Any program that accepts 11 year olds is going to have issues retaining 16 & 17 year olds. (This message has been edited by a staff member.)

[Kudu 186]

skeptic writes:

 

Kudu pronouncements...perhaps some individuals need to get out of the forest of misconception and actually look at the trees.

 

Nice.

 

Just who is it that dwells in a forest of misconception, skeptic?

 

You list all of the Tenderfoot through First Class requirements, but you do not "actually look at the trees."

 

Any real outdoorsman could read each and every one of those requirements and see what I see: A challenging outdoor program.

 

What I find "cause for serious alarm today, or at least good laughs" is that "modern" Eagle Scouts need never have walked into the woods with a pack on their backs.

 

The purpose of Scoutcraft was not to train boys to use the "commonly available technology of the period."

 

If that were true, then Baden-Powell would have called his program "The Parlour Scouts" and held meetings in the boys' homes where the "commonly available technology of the period" was kept.

 

None of the requirements you list say "Demonstrate rolling a drowning victim on a barrel," or "Explain why you must use a tourniquet for snake bite." To use your words they "were never an actual requirement."

 

skeptic writes:

 

Also, in the early period, it was important to know about runaway horses and mad dogs, as that was a common problem then, and much less was known about rabies. Should we still be teaching these things? Of course not.

 

I just love that moral indignation: "Should we still be teaching these things? Of course not."

 

As if our contempt for "Be Prepared" is so universally shared that no 21st century Scout need "Demonstrate first aid for the bite of a suspected rabid animal."

 

I first heard this assumption that modern Boy Scouts are never around horses from the SPL at my Wood Badge course. He expressed his contempt for the timelessness of Scoutcraft in exactly the same way: As if any Boy Scout on the face of this planet would rather know how to "Understand Group Needs and Characteristics" than be prepared to help with a runaway horse.

 

Yours at 300 feet,

 

Kudu

http://kudu.net

[Twocubdad 665]

It's killing me -- how DO you stop a runaway horse?

[Kudu 186]

Twocubdad writes:

 

It's killing me -- how DO you stop a runaway horse?

 

EXPLAIN to the horse that he should not run away.

 

DEMONSTRATE how a good horse behaves.

 

GUIDE the horse back to his rider.

 

ENABLE the horse to Understand Group Needs and Characteristics.

 

Yours at 300 feet,

 

Kudu

http://kudu.net

 

[Twocubdad 665]

But that only works if the horse has been to WoodBadge. Do you handle it differently if the horse is running away from a Cub Scout soccer game?

 

"I used to be a runaway horse and a good ol' runaway too...."

[skeptic 997]

Advanced first aid: Know the methods for panic prevention; what to do in case of fire and ice, electric and gas accidents; how to help in case of runaway horse, mad dog, or SNAKE BITE; treatment for dislocations, unconsciousness, poisoning, fainting, apoplexy, sunstroke, heat exhaustion, and freezing; know treatment for sunburn, ivy poisoning, bites and stings, nosebleed, earache, toothache, inflammation or grit in eye, cramp or stomach ache and chills; DEMONSTRATE ARTIFICIAL RESPIRATION.

 

Above are the first class first aid requirements, which includes knowing what to do about snake bite and how to do artificial respiration. The handbook does in fact tell the scout to use a tourniquet for snake bite, and even to loosen it after an hour or so, if the victim has not been gotten to the doctor. Of course we know today that this is not the best treatment, and can be very dangerous. Interestingly enough, the cutting of the bite is NOT noted; that occurred much later. Now, the method of resuscitation in the book of the period was the Schaefer method, which was straddling the victim from below his back and pushing upwards to expel water, cautioning to turn the head sideways. They did not recommend the barrel method, though the original Seton manual indirectly did, as it referred the scout to the National American Red Cross and Y.M.C.A. for training; and the barrel method was one still shown in their material.

 

One can make all kinds of assumptions about how much better the scouts learned things then; but we can surmise that they too had boys who passed the exams, but then forgot for whatever reason, be it lack of real knowledge, lack of interest, or simply not practicing. But basic woodlore was more likely to be needed then, so they were far more likely to find it worthwhile. The nature of boys has not changed that much, just the ways that some find to get around things and do as little as possible.

 

We are far more urbanized than back then, and we have far more things to distract youth. The majority of the scouts in our area that stay with the program, are moderately good outdoors people, especially when compared to their peers and many adults. We also have some who would give Dan Beard or Seton a run for their money.

 

The opportunities for adventure available to units that choose to take advantage are far greater today than back then. That includes reverting back to camping using basic skills and fending for ones self where possible within the strictures of today's laws. And the most successful troops take advantage of as much as they can, while most others still manage to get into the outdoors far more than than is common in our society. Only a very few are the types of units of which you complain, though maybe there are more today than when our entire country was more rural.

 

These are my observations as a SM for more than 30 years, with a troop that has done thousands of back pack miles over its almost 90 years, and makes every effort to continue to get out as much as possible; though we are currently struggling to find some younger adults to whom to pass the more strenuous activities. And we have dozens of similar units in our council, though not quite as old.

 

 

Thank you for your dedication to the basic principals of the program. I just feel that you are focusing too much on perceived problems, and not enough on the far more positive successes.

[moosetracker 132]

I will assume they remembered more, due to the fact they were re-tested for their knowledge of their lower ranks as they went for the higher ranks.. Rather then current system where it is a sin to re-test after they are signed off.

 

This on top of what you state as it being more rural and that they had less other things to vie for their attention between other youth programs, TV, video games, and all the other electronic gizmos..

 

Our troops can travel further to get to an interesting activity or hiking trail. But, I do think our units do much more car camping, then the backpacking style.. Though some troops are more proficient in the backpack style.. Plus we have lots and lots of new fangled camping gadgets that have become necessities of our camping gear between our style car camping and the older style.. But boy our tents are sure lighter. Most pictures I see of our unit when they started out in 1932, showed them with the heavy canvas style tents that are still popular at many Council summer camps.. Those must have not allowed them to travel lightly.

[dkurtenbach 348]

Oh, my.

 

When someone wants to conduct a business or other enterprise, they will often determine that a "corporation" is the best legal form for that business. In order to form a corporation, they must file the necessary paperwork and receive a certificate of incorporation from the state. At that point, the corporation is subject to state law concerning what activities it may lawfully engage in, and its duties, responsibilities, and obligations.

 

A federal charter is similar. Like a state certificate of incorporation, it provides the fundamental legal authority for the organization to exist and operate. Like state corporation law, it spells out the organization's fundamental duties, responsibilities, and obligations. The principal differences between an organization with such a charter and an organization incorporated under state law is that the federal charter gives the organization authorities and protections specific to that organization under federal law. In short, a federal charter is much more than an Elvis stamp.

 

Let's take a look at some of the provisions of BSA's federal charter _other than_ the "Purposes":

 

------------------------------------------

30901. Organization

 

(a)Federal Charter.Boy Scouts of America (in this chapter, the corporation) is a body corporate and politic of the District of Columbia.

(b)Domicile.The domicile of the corporation is the District of Columbia.

©Perpetual Existence.Except as otherwise provided, the corporation has perpetual existence.

 

30904. Powers

 

(a)General.The corporation may

(1)adopt and amend bylaws and regulations, including regulations for the election of associates and successors;

(2)adopt and alter a corporate seal;

(3)have offices and conduct its activities in the District of Columbia and the States, territories, and possessions of the United States;

(4)acquire and own property as necessary to carry out the purposes of the corporation;

(5)sue and be sued within the jurisdiction of the United States; and

(6)do any other act necessary to carry out this chapter and promote the purpose of the corporation.

(b)Limitations on Exercising Certain Powers.

(1)The corporation may execute mortgages and liens on the property of the corporation only if approved by a two-thirds vote of the entire executive board at a meeting called for that purpose.

(2)The corporation may dispose in any manner of the whole property of the corporation only with the written consent and affirmative vote of a majority of the members of the corporation.

 

30905. Exclusive right to emblems, badges, marks, and words

 

The corporation has the exclusive right to use emblems, badges, descriptive or designating marks, and words or phrases the corporation adopts. This section does not affect any vested rights.

 

30906. Restrictions

 

(a)Profit.The corporation may not operate for pecuniary profit to its members.

(b)Stocks and Dividends.The corporation may not issue stock or declare or pay a dividend.

 

30908. Annual report

 

Not later than April 1 of each year, the corporation shall submit a report to Congress on the activities of the corporation during the prior calendar year.

-----------------------------------------

 

I have discussed the "Purposes" section in detail elsewhere; in summary, it is clear from the text that the "methods" in common use by Boy Scouts in 1916 refers to "promote," "train," and "teach" -- that is, the unique educational methods developed (or popularized) by B-P. It is not a requirement to freeze everything about Scouting in its 1916 form. Rather, it is a requirement to continue using the 1916 principles for training and teaching Scouts -- and I don't think that anyone can seriously object to that.

 

Dan K.(This message has been edited by dkurtenbach)(This message has been edited by dkurtenbach)