How to Fire a Scoutmaster

[Schattenmann 10]

I've spent that last year thinking about standing up and ousting our current Scoutmaster, and the last hour Googling how to actually do it. The only result even close to what I was looking for, nestled among "how to start a fire" was this post from 5 years ago:

". . . Is it only me, or does anyone else notice that every week someone stops by all dissatisfied shopping for ammunition to oust a Scoutmaster . . ."

Well, here I am, this week's ammo shopper.

 

Where I'm coming from:

I'm a 25-year-old ASM/"Uniform Czar"/Unofficial Program Coord. (we haven't got a real committee anymore) for the troop I grew up in. Despite my (relative) youth, besides another guy about my age, I have the greatest seniority in the troop, so I also fill an unofficial position of crotchety codger. I remember when our troop didn't (to be frank) suck. I've been around to see it functional and thriving, to watch it decay, and to see it at the low point it's come to.

With that said, this may take on a "it's a you problem"; however, I have been slow to come to this conclusion whereas other ASMs, and scouts, have been complaining to me for two years.

 

The Problem:

At the same time I was turning 18 and leaving for school, the core adult leadership were also all getting beyond 55 years of age, their boys 20-years out of the troop in some cases, and retiring. They were replaced, of course, by newer parents. One of these is the current SM.

General disinterest by the new adults has created a situation where the SM is now doing everything, which is a problem but I don't blame him for that. The way he is doing things, though, is outrageous.

 

Our troop is, in terms of numbers, not yet suffering--we've been steady at 35-45 Scouts for a decade (and longer). But our troop has never measured success by how many names are on the roster, and I've seen troops that are worse off than us and with crummier leaders with over 100 scouts.

 

So what is it?

 

About two years ago, complaints started coming to a head. So, I sort of started pushing the point that we needed to do something about the direction that the troop was heading in (downhill). The current SM agreed, and promised to start working with me and another ASM to get things on track with the boys.

 

I said our Patrol Leaders don't do anything abd aren't held accountable for it. Mostly they're ignorant of what to do because they haven't seen a good, working patrol. He agreed, then went on to scuttle every attempt we've made to begin giving the PLs more training, more responsibility (where "more" means doing what they're supposed to do--Plan and lead meetings and outtings, duty rosters, and everything else a PL is supposed to do). While our SM traditionally did not attend the PLC, he moved it to a night he could attend, and continues to interject himself into the planning and manhandle the most idiotic plans imaginable into pratice. (When there's a night that doesn't get planned, he brings out water balloons--things like that).

 

Our troop has always required that candidates for SPL be graduates of Buckskin (our Council's leadership training); however, last year when we had 3 older boys who had never been SPL (nor gone to the trainign or expressed the slightest interest in being SPL) he stood up during troop elections and announced that for the next 6 months first this 17-year-old would be SPL until his birthday, then followed by the next until his birthday, then the next until his birthday, then his son (who had no training and is roundly despised by the scouts and ASMs) would succeed until the next elections. There were at least 2 well-qualified, trained, candidates that were ignored in favor of this dynasty.

 

At our Spring elections last month, he stood up and made another announcement: The boys would only be electing PLs and the SPL. The SPL would then appoint every other position--with lots of "help" and input from him, of course. He also wants the SPL to have 2 ASPLs; something which many troops do and I don't disagree with, but as I said we're not a mega-troop, we've got a solid 25-30 in attendence each night and don't need 2 ASPLs. We don't even have two qualified boys for ASPL after years of his coddling and manipulation and stagnation.

 

When three of us tried to create a functioning committee again, he took controll of the meeting and took over an hour reading the description of every position, effectively fillibustering the once-interested parents into glassy-eyed contempt.

 

When we set aside one night to take the PLs aside from the rest of the troop and develop plans for the next few weeks, he pushed his way into the session and told them all to go outside because it was time for the water balloon fight.

 

We barely have a functioning troop, but he forced through a Venture Patrol. It's a Venture Patrol in name only that the boys were not interested in, and the leader was cornered into taking on. Now the SM walks around with a New Unit Organizer square knot.

 

I hope you all get the idea--I'm sorry I'm so long-winded. To sum up (from an email exchange between myself and another ASM):

"I just don't understand why [the SM] thinks that he can fix a troop that is broken because it is no longer in alignment with national policies/standards by continuing to take it further and further from those standards; standards which create success in troops of all sizes and demographics all over the country! Instead he plays [his last name] Scouts of America year after year in complete confusion over failuers and sheer wonderment when a fluke success occurrs."

 

What to Do?

Over the last year, myself and the other active ASMs have tried to work with the SM over and over and over again. We sit down with him to strategize, we include him every discussion about the troop--this is no back alley, secret undertaking of a few conspirators. While we continue to recruit new scouts well, we've lost all experienced/older scouts to the point that the boys are completely crippled. The boys that remain are sick of the crummy state we're in.

 

I myself am not opposed to walking up to the man and asking him to give me his patches, but the other ASMs, while just as- or more frustrated than me, are not so bold. Our troop removed a SM years before I joined, but every adult that was around then is literally dead or nowhere to be found--I'm lost.

 

Is there a formal process to removing a Scoutmaster?

[resqman 108]

Well if I remember correctly the SM works for the CO. The CO has the ability to "hire & fire". So the answer is: you have to convince the CO that the current SM is not doing his job correctly or improperly enough for them to fire him. Of course most CO's don't really know what the SM job is so you have to explain to the CO what the job is and how the SM is not doing it right. Then you have to convince them that the SM is not repairable. Then you probably have to present a list of potential replacements.

 

Then if the CO is unhappy, they can fire him but very unlikely unless there is a grevious gaff that is unacceptable And there is a willing canidate waiting in the wings to turn the show around.

[John-in-KC 311]

Yes.

 

It's called the Chartered Organization Representative notifies the Council that Mr A is no longer the SM of your unit.

 

As an ASM, you work for the Scoutmaster. Loyalty. Are you sure you want to go through with this? Do you understand there can be 2d and 3d order consequences?

 

If the ASMs are convinced that the SM must go, then you need to go to the Committee Chair with adult apps in hand... that make you Committee Members vice ASMs. That way, you're no longer tied by loyalty to your supervisor in the program: The SM. That way, also, you have a voice on the Troop Committee.

 

THEN, you lay your case that the SM must go out in a business meeting with the CC. This is not friendly cup of coffee time. You are young bulls charging the established leadership. You need to ask the CC for time and place to have a business discussion.

 

You have to sell him to go to the SM (and they should have each others' back BTW), and talk him into deciding that it's time to step down.

 

If the SM won't step down of his own accord, then the CC has to be sold that it's worth investing the time and energy to go to the COR, and ask that the SM be removed from office. That's going to be humiliating. Are you really sure you want to go through with this? Have you had long cups of coffee with your Unit Commissioner, and gotten his take on your unit? Are you young Turks fully prepared to take over the Troop adult leadership. Do you all have the time it will take, and the $$$?

 

I ask yet again: Do you really want to do this?

[asm 411 10]

hmmm...

 

I read your post and two things have come to mind.

 

First if I were you I would tell the Scoutmaster that you are interested in being Scoutmaster and see when he was thinking of retiring. It is worth a shot.

 

Second you mentioned that there is no committee to speak of. This may be one way to solve your problem of getting the troop back on track. Become the committee chair yourself. You don't have to be an ASM to camp or attend meetings. You can do that as committee chair. Build up a strong committee and use them to get the troop back on track. If that does not work and you go the Charter Org at least the next SM, be it you or someone else, would have a much easier time getting things back on track.

[scoutldr 726]

As has been stated, the ASMs don't have the authority to hire and fire anyone. Only the COR and CC can do that. (Both must sign and approve adult applications). What you have written don't seem to be "firing offenses" to me. Just adaptations on delivering the program. NOT the BSA recommended method, to be sure, however, nothing illegal or immoral. Seems to me your only options are to have a quiet, confidential chat with the CC, and if that gets no reaction, your options are clear. 1) continue to work within the system to slowly affect change, or 2) find or start a new troop. As long as your troop keeps its numbers up (FOS, advancement and membership), the Council won't care.

 

And you DO have a committee with a CC. They are listed on your troop printout. If they are not doing their jobs, either, then maybe your options are more clear.

[Schattenmann 10]

I forgot a doozy: Last yera at camp a scout asked me who I thought the next SM would be. I said I had no idea, maybe Mr So-and-so, but I had no idea when the current SM would resign so who knew who else might come along between now and then. One of the current SMs sons overheard us and said "2 years." I asked him 2 years what? And he said "2 years until my dad resigns, that's what he told me." I asked what happened in 2 years and he replied "Me and my brother will both be Eagle by then."

 

 

Thanks resqman and John for the prompt replies.

"It's called the Chartered Organization Representative notifies the Council that Mr A is no longer the SM of your unit."

 

The COR is part of the problem--he comes around less than once a month, and was actually the person pushing hardest for that paper Venture Crew (he got a pretty knot, too). He's a Council bigwig that hasn't got a clue how to run a troop.

 

"THEN, you lay your case that the SM must go out in a business meeting with the CC. This is not friendly cup of coffee time. You are young bulls charging the established leadership. You need to ask the CC for time and place to have a business discussion"

The Committee Chair (I say we have no real committee--we've got one on paper but none of them does or is allowed to do anything except the CC) is actually one of the main detractors. And while two of us are young, he's over 40, in with the Council, and actually has a son in the troop unlike us.

 

I believe that given knowledge of this process, we are willing to follow it. As I said, we're not interested in just kicking the SM out, but he does need to go.

[Lisabob 13]

Wow. Schattenman, I have to say that you might want to carefully consider how you come across. While you may very well have some valid points here, taking off the SM's head is a pretty drastic step and should not be your first big move. If you came into "my" troop like this and if I were the SM, I'd be sorely tempted to either tell you to take a hike until you had a clue, or better yet, I might hand you the badges, wish you lots of luck, and leave in disgust.

 

Being a SM is an enormous commitment of time and energy and it needs to be sustained over time. Lots of times, new leaders (and I'm sorry but at 25, you're still a new leader - it does not matter how long you were in the troop or what ranks you earned as a youth; the adult side of things is just different) have a lot of fire to start with but no understanding of how hard it can be to sustain that in order to provide consistency over time. That does not mean your current SM is necessarily doing a good job, but it may mean you have no idea how hard he is actually working at it. Be thankful for the time he gives.

 

Now, as to how to improve things:

1) Is your SM trained for his position? If not, encourage him to go to training. (For that matter: Are you trained as an ASM?) What about the other ASMs? Maybe it would be useful for all of you to attend training together, if some/most/all of you aren't already trained. Even if it is a repeat for a few of you, it might help you all develop a common understanding of what your troop's strenghts & weaknesses are, and how you'll work together to improve upon things.

 

2) Prioritize your concerns. If you are most concerned about PLCs, focus on that. (You should know it isn't uncommon for SM's to attend the PLC.) If you are most concerned with developing PLs into great leaders, focus on your troop's approach to youth leader training. If you are most concerned about how SPLs and other troop PORs are chosen, focus on that (by the way, there is strong support for the idea of the SPL to choose his own ASPL and other PORs, rather than electing all of them. Among other things, this gives the SPL a leadership corp he can depend upon and work with.) Point is, you have a bunch of issues here and realistically, it is quite difficult to juggle all of them at once.

 

3) Look at other adults - even those for whom you seem to have little use - as potential allies first. That CC who you say is part of the problem? He may just have a different set of priorities regarding the unit, that you might be unaware of. Talk to him. That COR? Maybe he doesn't have a good sense of things, but he might be educable. Besides which, it is actually quite UNCOMMON for CORs to be deeply involved in the day-to-day affairs of a unit. The fact that he comes around "less than once a month" shouldn't be a problem for you. You simply will not get very far all by yourself. That's how people get burned out, not to mention that if you single-handedly "save" the troop, then the troop may lack for any depth of leadership when you move on. Don't set up the troop to fail in your absence. To avoid that, you need the good will of these other adults.

 

4) Consider the notion that many people who are willing to give some of their time, none the less do not live, eat, and breathe scouting the same way you might. That's ok - they can still be valuable leaders. Really strong troops have a range of adults committed at various levels. Be careful not to sound contemptuous of those 40 year olds with kids in the troop who impose limits on the amount of time they have to give to the troop.

 

5) Make sure you have great communications with the parents of boys in the troop. They may perceive things QUITE differently than you do, since you are a) a lot younger and b) not a parent. If they're fairly content then any attempt to stage a coup on your part is not only extremely likely to fail, but you will also cause big problems for the boys currently in teh troop (their parents may abandon the troop rather than put up with what they might perceive as silliness among adults). Are you sure you'd have their support?

 

6) Think carefully about loyalty. If you can't serve as an ASM for this SM, then don't. Resign. But if you stay, be aware that there are ALWAYS people who simply enjoy complaining. Don't be a lightening rod for other disgruntled people. Situations like that tend to fester and poison the atmosphere for everybody, and that's rarely helpful. If people are coming to you to complain all the time, prepare a standard response that is polite yet makes clear that you don't have an interest in listening to idle complainers. Something like "That would be a good issue to take up with Mr. ___ the Committee Chair (or SM). Why don't you go talk with him."

 

7) Who cares about the Venturing Crew! Drop it. So they got new unit organizer awards. So what?! That's completely irrelevant to your concerns with the troop. Either the Crew will, or will not, get off the ground. Don't let it distract you.

 

What you've written about the troop does suggest that there are some issues that need to be addressed, but remember that no troop is perfect. I don't think any of what you wrote really rises to the level of forcibly ousting the SM. Most of it speaks to the need for better communication, perhaps more training, and maybe more adult input, but ousting the program leader (SM) should really be a last-ditch effort and not a primary approach to problem solving.

 

 

 

 

[Eagle92 110]

Lots of good advice here. Understand your loyalty to the unit, it is hard seeing something that you put alot of energy and was a part of fall apart. I know. I still have contact with my old troop, and since Katrina they've only had about 10-12 active. This from a time when we had 4 patrols of 8-10 each.

 

here is my $.02 worth.

 

1) have a leadership meeting, i.e. SM and all ASMs and discuss what needs to be done. I would also invite the UC. DEVELOP A PLAN OF ACTION TO IMPROVE THE TROOP WITH DETAILS TO MAKE IT YOUTH RUN.

 

2) Make sure everyone is Trained and know what resources are out there. There are hundreds of things out there to help the troop.

 

Again lots of great advice. I will add that being an SM is an AWESOME responsibility, one that is not to be takely ligtly. It is one of the most important positions.

[Gunny2862 11]

Among all of the other things that others have said, that are spot on. Here is another possibility or two.

 

1)Have YOU put on your long pants, squared away your necker and had the discussion with the Scoutmaster?

If not, why not?

The fact that it may not do any good notwithstanding, at least you won't be serving as his ASM - a person he should be relying on for support - and at the same time aiming at his back.

 

If you find you are unable to support this SM, resign, unequivocally and now, and join the Committee if you will and work from the right side on this.

 

It May be time for him to go, but DO NOT mess it up for the Scouts by doing it the wrong way!

 

2)It may be that as Webelos choose Troops that fit them, you may need to try on another Troop.

Not every Troop is right for every Scout, but there is almost always a Troop that IS a fit for a particular Scout. You MAY be finding the adult version of that paradigm.

If no one else is unhappy enough to do anything, It may simply be that you are out of place and need to find a new Scouting home - and when you find the one that fits - they will be ecstatic to have you!

[CalicoPenn 729]

I'm going to be blunter than perhaps others will be.

 

Unless the parents and Scouts are clamoring for a change, unless you have the support of 90% or more of the parents and Scouts, unless you have the support of the COR - then stop. Just stop.

 

You are comparing your experiences with the Troop as a lad with what's happening in the Troop now. You have an idealized view of the Troop rooted in your perception of how things should be. It is quite possible that when you were a Scout, the adults were struggling with the same issues you're dealing with now - you just didn't see that side.

 

You've heard from a source close enough to the Scoutmaster to be given some credence that his plan is to serve 2 years (given that this was learned last summer, if I do my math right, that's now down to a year and a few months). Rather than pushing for him to be removed - the wise person would use this time to position him/herself as the Scoutmaster's replacement - and part of that time should be used to get trained.

 

And yes - you need to be trained! Some of the things you mentioned as being flaws a trained person will recognize as being consistent with the program.

 

A Scoutmaster (or designated assistant) SHOULD be attending PLC meetings. His role is to guide the PLC as needed and it's much easier and more convenient for the Scoutmaster to be able to interject during a PLC than to have to "veto" a plan as unworkable after the PLC has worked to develop it. He's there to help prevent having nights that aren't planned so he doesn't have to think on the fly and call for water balloons, or a game of kickball, or whatever.

 

SPL's appointing all the positions in a Troop except for the PL's, with the Scoutmaster's input? Oh - the Horror! - Wait - a Trained Leader knows that this is exactly how it's supposed to be done! Patrols elect their Patrol Leaders. Troops elect their SPL. The SPL APPOINTS the ASPL's, Quartermaster, Scribe, Historian, etc. etc. etc. He gets guidance from the Scoutmaster because the Scoutmaster is more likely going to know which lad needs a leadership position for rank advancment, etc. Sounds like the Scoutmaster has it right!

 

A "troop requirement" that all SPL candidates take "Buckskin Training" before they can become an SPL? Ridiculous - and good on the Scoutmaster for ignoring it. Sure, a Troop can have such a requirement if it wants, but for the most part it's a really stupid idea usually thought up by some adults who want to exert control over whom the boys in the Unit want to lead them as SPL. When a Lad becomes SPL - if he doesn't have the training, get him to the training - if it will be a while before training is held - do what Scout Troops have done for decades - train him without the Council's help. No boy should be held back from holding a leadership role because he doesn't have the training. The leadership role is PART of the training. That goes for ASPL's too - the only real prequalification should be "he has an active membership card".

 

When you said "we set aside some time for the PL's to get together to plan" - who is WE? Did you involve him in this at all? You say "he pushed his way in". He shouldn't have had to push his way in - he should have been there from the get go. Frankly, it sounds like the Scoutmaster was keeping the unit on track - PLC meetings aren't held in the middle of other meetings - you don't send your Scouts out to do any kind of physical activity (even if it is a water balloon fight - and that must be something the lads enjoy or they wouldn't do it) without sending their PL's and SPL out to run the games.

 

 

By the way, what's a "Uniform Czar"? is that anything like "Patch Police"? If so - stop it - stop it now. A TRAINED leader will tell you that Uniforms are only one method of Scouting - and aren't required at that.

 

Instead of spending more time on Google trying to learn how to oust a perfectly fine Scoutmaster (other than one or two glitches that I see - and the one big one seems to have been corrected if he's talking about electing SPL's), spend some time on your Council's website learning what training opportunities are out there that will help YOU prepare to be a Scoutmaster in the future.

 

Heck - any unit with a solid attendance at meetings of 25-30 lads in a Troop of about 35 is far from dysfunctional - most so-called "functional" Troops would give their left-handed smokebenders up to have those kinds of numbers.

 

If anything, the number one cause of the "crummy state" your Troop is in is the ASM's not supporting the SM and encouraging the negative feelings the lads have about the Troop.

 

Get yourself trained - forget everything you think you know about Boy Scouts because you were once a Boy Scout - you don't know everything you think you do and you don't know what you need to know. You have the enthusiasm which is great - now you need to temper that with real knowledge.

[Gunny2862 11]

CalicoPenn, Great post!

Much better perspective than mine. Although point 2 in mine May still hold.

Thanks!

[Mafaking 10]

Its You.

 

He has stolen your troop.

 

The items you mentioned are hardly high crimes. Attending the PLC? I would expect the SM to be present at the PLC. I get the feeling you were running the PLC directly or indirectly until HE showed up.

 

Schattenmann wrote "About two years ago, complaints started coming to a head." This just might be your pose agreeing with you.

 

As far as the other POR, the SM Handbook outlines the SPL chooses the POR with help from the SM. SPL are not above cronyism but between the two they should get a good balance of scout and position. Even two ASPL's maybe he is trying to use all three, the SPL and 2 ASPL's to help train the ignorant PL.

 

Yea the son and dynasty thing is a sign of real trouble so I will give you that this is problematic. No open elections is bad and a sign that the troop is off course.

 

SM's get removed for bad role models, negligence, poor safety habits, inappropriate money use, G2SS issues things like that. Rambling meetings and and boring the pants off the parents, well that just goes with the job description.

 

 

 

(This message has been edited by Mafaking)

[Gunny2862 11]

WAIT, WAIT,

I thought boring the parents was one of the perks!

 

Was I wrong again?

[Buffalo Skipper 13]

Let me add to what Eagle92 has said here, especially about the position of SM being an awsome responsiblity and about having a boy-led troop.

 

As an example, I am a fanatical organizer. I like to see things "just so." I plan everything to the nth degree, and yet I am flexible and recognize that any plan (especially on the boy scout level) may be subject to change without notice or reason. Expecting the troop (youth) leadership to hold themselves to these high standards is a futile gesture.

 

Scout craft and enthusiasm for the job are not the most important qualities of a Scoutmaster. Patience and the ability to recognize that youth expectations are not the same as those of the adults will go much farther to developing youth leadership than anything else.

 

I understand about a connection to one's own troop. The troop in which I grew up folded several years after I left, and the one with which I am now SM was our biggest rival (with 80+ active 30 years ago, it was the biggest everything). When I started with the troop several years ago it had about 12 scouts registered, and fewer active. It took 3 years to subtly rebuild the committee (through the charter organization), and it will take several more to reach the level where I believe we should be.

 

I spent 3 years with the troop laying the groundwork before I stepped up as Scoutmaster, yet the first day I showed up, the (small) committee with whom I met unanimously agreed that I was the current SMs eventual replacement.

 

Patience is a virtue. I understand that you have thought about this for a year, but that doesn't mean you have to act so abruptly. Plan you action, build your allies an paitently execute your plan. Let it happen, don't force it. If he has 2 years, this gives you plenty of opportunity to set things up for the troop's benefit.

[Eagle92 110]

Sorry I got cut off, that pesky thing called a job you know.

 

3) GET BUY IN FOR YOUR PLAN. Not only from the scouts, but also the parents. if you don't get buy in for the plan, then no matter what yuou do or say, it aint happening.

 

4)talk about succession planning. If it is known that in 18 months, he's history, then I would try to recruit a replacement NOW. Once hook line and sinker, then get them to training ASAP.

 

As some have mentioned, he is doing something right, i.e. attending PLC,etc. It may be alittle different than what you went through, but Scotuing has changed over the years, even as little as 7 years ago.

 

As a was saying, again lots of great advice. I will add that being an SM is an AWESOME responsibility, one that is not to be takely lightly. It is one of the most important positions. The SM is the one that molds the troop, trains and inspires the Jr. leaders, and is ultimately responsible to teh committee for program. A good SM can make or break a troop. Since it is known that he will be gone in 2 years, I would confirm it, and if true talk about succession planing NOW as it is never too early. Heck the troop that my son's pack feeds into has already said they want me in 6 years as SM, and that is freaking me out!