Cost of Scouting vs Cost of Sports

[Eagle94-A1]

13 hours ago, BetterWithCheddar said:

So, despite a few strong programs in every area, unit programming seems to be lacking.

I suggested more council / district events run by professionals and experienced volunteers, but everyone's experience there indicates those are also hit and miss.

Training sucks. There is no denying it. Standards have dropped to the point they are almost nonexistant, and if you try to keep some, you are told you are gatekeeping or adding to requirements. Folks with knowledge, skills, abilities, and experience are being told they don't know what they are doing, they need to quit, etc. they are getting fed up and quitting.

As far as professionals go, very, very few have what it takes to run programs. Most are just out of college and trying to pay off loans.

 

more later.

[Eagle94-A1]

Sorry for the disjointedness. dealing with issues.

Training is horrible, and adults do not know vital skills. How can you expect a good program if you cannot do the basics?

Many units focus on advancement, a left over from Cub Scouts IMHO. And part of that is WDLs have not been getting the training they need on transitioning from Cubs to Scouts. And they keep on doing what they have been trained. Additionally advancement standards have indeed dropped, despite what folks say. When a Life Scout cannot do basic T-2-1 first aid, that is a problem. And if you try to have standards, you get complaints of adding to requirements or gatekeeping, and told they need to quit. Some folks quit. And some just focus on their units.

As for professionals, the training I went through as a pro didn't cover programming, just the "3 Ms": Money, Membership, and Manpower. Yes, I had to have SM Fundamentals, Cub Scout Basic Leader Training, and Explorer Leader Basic (either the full class or self study course with advisor) in order to be a DE. But that was so that we could understand the programs we were working for. And I am told today's DEs not only getting less topics covered in training, but also are NOT required to have any of the program basic trainings done completed prior to professional training.. So very few pros have the abilties to run programs.

 

[Eagle94-A1]

16 hours ago, BetterWithCheddar said:

Since we're still in the Scouts vs. Sports thread: I was recently provided a list of possible summer camp dates for my 3rd grader, and I (as a Den Leader) couldn't commit to any of them until basketball camp schedules come out. My son is on the top team, but probably only the 6th or 7th best player in his grade. He risks being bumped to the B-Team next year if organizers don't think we take basketball seriously in the offseason. Would he probably be OK if he missed a week of basketball for Scout Camp? Yes. Is he good enough that he wants to risk it? No. There is a definite FOMO / scarcity element to youth sports.

That is part of the problem. Sports tend to want your entire life to revolve around the sport, and nothing else. Or there will be consequences. I still remember when the martial arts dojo sprang a last minute weekend seminar with 4 days notice. Happened to be the same weekend an aunt from out of town was visiting.  The owners expected my kids to attend the last minute weekend seminar instead of the activities we had planned with their aunt. The next  session after the weekend seminar, all those who didn't attend were chewed out. And when it came time to spar, those who attended were being encouraged to beat the crap out of those who didn't attend.  When I talk to parents of kids involved in sports, all  I hear is how their lives are completely turned around and focused on that sport: school team, travel leagues, camps, workshops, etc.

Scouting doesn't have that mentality. I think some folks want  the low advancement standards so their child can get eagle and move on to focus on sports.

[BetterWithCheddar]

@Eagle94-A1, I hope your experience with youth sports is the exception and not the norm.

Anecdotally, I'll share ours has been mainly positive. There has been no directive to attend 100% of practices, games, camps, etc. Rather, it's pretty obvious (to me and to my 3rd grader) which kids puts in the work and which don't.

His school team practices 2x per week from November through mid-March. The more-skilled kids also attend private small group training at a local for-profit facility, hit the YMCA with their dad on the weekend, and take an occasional private lesson. A kid's skill level at this age is highly correlated with the amount of extra work they put in outside of the normal practice schedule (and their parents' income 😛).

Of my son's two main activities, he's observed that hard work in basketball comes with improved skill, admiration from peers, and cool looking gear, while hard work in Cub Scouts comes with virtually no added benefits because everyone gets the same awards anyway.

You might occasionally see for-profit operators put undue pressure on kids and families to commit to a sport, but I bet most high school coaches in large suburban districts don't care because their talent pool is so rich. Any coach worth their salt is going to make reasonable exceptions for their players, but if a kid isn't putting in the work, it will eventually show in their performance.

I'm still a big advocate of Scouting. The fact that it's so different from youth sports is (mostly) a good thing. I hope my son sticks with them both, but right now youth basketball is better at meeting his needs and interests.

[DuctTape]

The pressure from sports to be "100% committed to the team" starts to manifest as kids move into Middle School. The same happens with the school play, and most other extra-curriculars. The adults in charge exert the pressure b/c it is more difficult for them to run their program with inconsistent attendance. Just like scouting is more of a hassle with inconsistent attendance. Best way for Scouts to address this is to focus on patrol activities, encourage highly active scouts (those who are 90-100%) to create their own patrol and plan/do stuff together. This high functioning patrol can act as the model for all the others. 

[Eagle94-A1]

5 hours ago, BetterWithCheddar said:

Of my son's two main activities, he's observed that hard work in basketball comes with improved skill, admiration from peers, and cool looking gear, while hard work in Cub Scouts comes with virtually no added benefits because everyone gets the same awards anyway.

Not just Cubs, and it is worse. I had to talk to Scouts who cared less about Eagle because they know Eagles who honestly didn't earn it. They asked me "What's the purpose if everyone gets it." That was a difficult discussion. They got upset with folks being handed MBs without doing the work they did. Again another difficult discussion. But the one that hit me hard was OA elections. OA meant a lot to me growing up, and I remained active as an adult. Sons even helped me assemble regalia and the drum. None of my sons got interested in the OA. One because he saw folks he knew, and questioned how they got elected. Another was pumped to join, until the Call Out Ceremony, when one of his peers in his former troop, who hated camping and was a trouble maker, got called out with him. He lost all interest in the OA because, "If an honor society will let him in, it is not a big deal." Youngest was never interested because of his brothers' experiences. Which was good because the chapter would not stop to do unit elections after 3 years of asking for them. 

3 hours ago, DuctTape said:

The pressure from sports to be "100% committed to the team" starts to manifest as kids move into Middle School. The same happens with the school play, and most other extra-curriculars. The adults in charge exert the pressure b/c it is more difficult for them to run their program with inconsistent attendance. Just like scouting is more of a hassle with inconsistent attendance. Best way for Scouts to address this is to focus on patrol activities, encourage highly active scouts (those who are 90-100%) to create their own patrol and plan/do stuff together. This high functioning patrol can act as the model for all the others. 

I know in some parts of the country, HS extracurriculars are also graded. I know at the HS I went to,  your PE class was based on the sports you played. The practices and games in season counted as class, and the scheduled class period was mandatory study hall. Miss a practice or game, there went your grade. Band had it worse as they had to attend practices, games, competitions, and parades. Depending on the time of year, their music class was more practice, and not study hall. Ditto with missing something, because it affected your grade.

[Tron]

Wow, go out of town for a couple days and wow a lot was here to chew on. 

The all merit badge issue is in my opinion a matter of money. The scouts that I have personally seen get them all basically bought their way through it by having the cash to go-go-go. I don't believe a scout should have to master a skill to get a merit badge; however, at the same time I don't believe some of these scouts have retained any knowledge of the harder merit badges which defeats a huge part of the purpose of the merit badge process. 

The merit badge mills (MBU, etc ... )are less of a concern for me. They're such a mixed bag. Some scouts are coming in with pre-requisites and meeting the base standard, some are exceeding the standard, some are just being tossed a merit badge (which plainly sucks and hurts the scouts and program). I think the difficulty here is that there is a base standard, a minimum; we often get lost in the haze of debate over a scout who over achieves and people believing that should re-baseline the merit badge requirements. Merit badges are not on a bell curve, you do the standard you get the badge. I sat in at a MBU last year and I had a handful of parents and scouts lose their mind on me because they came in with literal reams of pre-work and while great, demonstrating above average achievement, it was a lot of work that was not required. I had to tell a scout and his parents that the standard was X and they did X+10. I had to tell them that the other scouts who just did exactly the requirement for the pre-requisites would get the exact same merit badge. They lost their minds, to them because little billy did more, so should everyone else. 

The requirements to become a MBC are horrible in every way. The standards are arbitrary and subjective. There are very few if any audits of skill going on. There are fiefdoms for certain merit badges. My personal hate is being told I was not qualified to be an MBC for a merit badge and I came back with "I have over 40 years experience and certified training in this, wtf do you mean I am not qualified to be an MBC for this?". When national rolled out the Citizenship in Society MB and all the hoops you had to jump through to be an MBC for that, where the heck are those hoops for any other MB? How can people get signed off to be an MBC without doing the 15min free online training? Too wrap this up I just had to talk a troop leader off the ledge who was going to lose his $%^& on our councils "MB Dean" when the MB Dean told the troop leader that he wasn't qualified to MBC Citizenship in the Nation; the troop leader is teacher who literally teaches a course called "Citizenship in America" at a local high school. The whole process is broken. 

[BetterWithCheddar]

In keeping with the theme of the thread, we've had a good experience with youth basketball coaches. Some are great. Some are OK. None have been bad. Most of the youth coaches in the school district are just dads who played high school basketball. They're required to take a 2-hour coaching seminar in the Fall, but that mainly covers youth protection and first aid (not X's and O's). My son's coach this year is actually an Eagle Scout. He speaks fondly of his time in Scouting but hasn't enrolled his own son in Cubs. I guess that begs the question - why isn't Scouting able to sustain the program with former Scouts returning as adult volunteers?

[Eagle94-A1]

10 hours ago, Tron said:

The all merit badge issue is in my opinion a matter of money. The scouts that I have personally seen get them all basically bought their way through it by having the cash to go-go-go. I

I have seen a few, but met only 1 who actually retained the knowledge. Grant you he earned his last MB a few days before turning 18.

 

don't believe a scout should have to master a skill to get a merit badge; however, at the same time I don't believe some of these scouts have retained any knowledge of the harder merit badges which defeats a huge part of the purpose of the merit badge process. 

That is the difference in standards today. Prior to the 2000s, the standard was "Master the skills," and "the badge represents what a Scout CAN DO (sic), not what he has done." Today the focus is on doing the requirements for "personal growth."

The merit badge mills (MBU, etc ... )are less of a concern for me. They're such a mixed bag. Some scouts are coming in with pre-requisites and meeting the base standard, some are exceeding the standard, some are just being tossed a merit badge (which plainly sucks and hurts the scouts and program). I think the difficulty here is that there is a base standard, a minimum; we often get lost in the haze of debate over a scout who over achieves and people believing that should re-baseline the merit badge requirements. Merit badges are not on a bell curve, you do the standard you get the badge. I sat in at a MBU last year and I had a handful of parents and scouts lose their mind on me because they came in with literal reams of pre-work and while great, demonstrating above average achievement, it was a lot of work that was not required. I had to tell a scout and his parents that the standard was X and they did X+10. I had to tell them that the other scouts who just did exactly the requirement for the pre-requisites would get the exact same merit badge. They lost their minds, to them because little billy did more, so should everyone else. 

MBUs are becoming the norm, not the exception, and that is the very concerning for me.  I am seeing more and more folks just get MBs for sitting in a class. And my questions regarding your experience: 1. Why were parents involved, and 2. do you think the kids actually did the extra work, or their parents threw that in?

The requirements to become a MBC are horrible in every way. The standards are arbitrary and subjective. There are very few if any audits of skill going on. There are fiefdoms for certain merit badges. My personal hate is being told I was not qualified to be an MBC for a merit badge and I came back with "I have over 40 years experience and certified training in this, wtf do you mean I am not qualified to be an MBC for this?". When national rolled out the Citizenship in Society MB and all the hoops you had to jump through to be an MBC for that, where the heck are those hoops for any other MB? How can people get signed off to be an MBC without doing the 15min free online training? Too wrap this up I just had to talk a troop leader off the ledge who was going to lose his $%^& on our councils "MB Dean" when the MB Dean told the troop leader that he wasn't qualified to MBC Citizenship in the Nation; the troop leader is teacher who literally teaches a course called "Citizenship in America" at a local high school. The whole process is broken. 

Don't get me started on MBCs and the process.  Either my council dropped, or National IT dropped, every single MBC in my council. To say it was a Charlie Foctrot would be an understatement. Folks who had been MBCs for ages were no longer qualified becuase National mandated some type of certification to teach. I'm sorry but you don't need American Canoe Associate or BSA accreditation to teach Canoeing MB if you got over 40 years experience, 2 Fifty Milers by canoe, etc etc.

But as you noted there is no auditing process. Because of all the problems with BSA's IT systems, I know many troops ignore scoutbook, and have their own list of MBCs. After the last time the MBs I teach were dropped, I said heck with it. Only time it matters is if I teach at a district/council event. They double check., 

 

[Eagle94-A1]

3 hours ago, BetterWithCheddar said:

.My son's coach this year is actually an Eagle Scout. He speaks fondly of his time in Scouting but hasn't enrolled his own son in Cubs. I guess that begs the question - why isn't Scouting able to sustain the program with former Scouts returning as adult volunteers?

Today's Scouting is not the same program as it use to be.

The Cub Scout Program was completely revamped in 2015, with a revision of those requirements  in December 2016 . My then Webelos 2 said they "watered down requirements" because they made things easier to earn. Thankfully the pack decided to ignore the 2016 changes until June 2017 because the "immediate" changes were major enough to cause advancement delays, as well as force the pack to change their programming.  And they have changed the program a few more times since 2017, with the latest being Webelos cannot begin transitioning to Scouts as that happens in 5th grade now.

As for Scouts, the emphasis is on advancement, not fun, adventure, and growth.

 

[InquisitiveScouter]

25 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

As for Scouts, the emphasis is on advancement, not fun, adventure, and growth.

I am an advocate for returning to no age limit on earning ranks.  (BSA instituted the age limit in 1952.)

Want a good chance to see a return of Scouting skills?  Allow adults to earn their ranks as well...

Want to have a good chance at restoring some integrity into the Merit Badge program?  Allow adults to earn them as well...

Removing age limit would also pave the way for bringing back testing for a Board of Review, thus reinforcing Scout skills.

Adults would be in a "Rover"-type patrol...  Add some additional awards for them for mentoring and teaching youth under 18...

Edited 2 hours ago by InquisitiveScouter
Changed "leading" to "mentoring" to prevent some of you from have a stroke ;)

[Eagle94-A1]

As much as I like the idea, the cow is out the barn regarding advancement.

I remember watching some national online meeting during COVID, I think it was 2021 National Meeting, where National was praising a FL council for having online MBUs and awarding over 20,000 MBs during the pandemic.

As for adults bringing back integrity, you already have adults trying to cut corners on training. I had adults trying to get me to sign off on their training, but would not staff a class, or when it was allowed, test out of the class.

Sorry if I am pessimistic.