What?? You've Got to Be Kidding Me with These Membership Numbers!

[jcousino]

What type of fees does each council pass on to the national level? Wondering what the fees to the council will be if there are fewer councils. I must agree that adult training is a joke. The few DEs I knew well enough to talk honestly, their training was just as bad. Ask one about a YPT question, and his answer is that it is coming in level 2 training.

[InquisitiveScouter]

The biggest unadvertised cost of Scouting is the amount of volunteer adult support it takes to make a good unit level program happen.

No "pitch" that I have ever heard (outside of our unit) tells parents that "We welcome your kids, but you have to come along, too, to help us put on the program."

When you do get them to agree to help, then explain that "help" means a variety of getting trained, learning Scout skills so that you know what 'right' looks like, being a merit badge counselor, serving on the committee to help with budget, managing adult training, onboarding, advancement, uniforming, equipment, fundraising, etc, etc, etc,   Oh, and we need drivers and adults for camping, too. 

Once they learn those needs, many are out.  They want to take their kids to programs where they can dump and run, or show up occasionally with a tray of orange slices and some juice boxes.

Once upon a time, when I served Uncle Sam, our mantra in the Air Force was "We recruit Airmen, but we retain families."  And we did PR, ads, benefits, and programs to support that.  Attract individuals, but make our environment such that, as they start a family while serving (which many do), we make it comfortable for their family to have the service member stay in.   (This mindset varies across the services, though many of the family programs and benefits are duplicated in all services.  Health care, base housing, commissary and exchange, MWR [morale, welfare, and recreation], etc. )

Scouting should be, "We recruit families, but we retain the Scout."  Get the family on board, and give them benefits for their Scouts (a program of adventure) , and the youth will stay, keeping the parents involved.

 

 

 

[Eagle94-A1]

33 minutes ago, jcousino said:

I must agree that adult training is a joke. The few DEs I knew well enough to talk honestly, their training was just as bad. Ask one about a YPT question, and his answer is that it is coming in level 2 training.

Regarding training, I was appalled at what was left out of CS Leader Specific, especially the Webelos Den Leader Specific, compared to the old CS Basic Leader Training. There is no mention of the differences between being a CSDL, and being a WDL, and how the transision is suppose to go. I beleive that the retention rates for Crossed Over Scouts is for this very reason, and national has doubled down on it, making the transition a few months in 5th grade, instead of the 18-24 months. BSA did the research once, and it stated transition takes 18-24 months.

Regarding DE training, WOW. Prior to going to PDL-1, we had to have YPT, CSBLT, SM Fundamentals, and Explorer Basic Leader Training. Additional YP stuff was covered, but it was mostly a reemphasis of get the Scout to safety, call the SE, call the police.

 

[Tron]

23 hours ago, jcousino said:

What type of fees does each council pass on to the national level? Wondering what the fees to the council will be if there are fewer councils. I must agree that adult training is a joke. The few DEs I knew well enough to talk honestly, their training was just as bad. Ask one about a YPT question, and his answer is that it is coming in level 2 training.

The councils pass the core fee in its entirety; councils only retain the council fee. DE's are not trained very well. 

23 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Regarding training, I was appalled at what was left out of CS Leader Specific, especially the Webelos Den Leader Specific, compared to the old CS Basic Leader Training. There is no mention of the differences between being a CSDL, and being a WDL, and how the transision is suppose to go. I beleive that the retention rates for Crossed Over Scouts is for this very reason, and national has doubled down on it, making the transition a few months in 5th grade, instead of the 18-24 months. BSA did the research once, and it stated transition takes 18-24 months.

Regarding DE training, WOW. Prior to going to PDL-1, we had to have YPT, CSBLT, SM Fundamentals, and Explorer Basic Leader Training. Additional YP stuff was covered, but it was mostly a reemphasis of get the Scout to safety, call the SE, call the police.

 

To both of you I want to comment that the DE training is horrible. National waits until a DE is level 2 trained to train them on how to recruit a volunteer district staff. This is a volunteer run organization; the #1 thing every DE should do is know how to identify and recruit volunteers to run their district. 

I think the training for cub scout volunteers needs to emphasis multiple troop visits to a much larger degree. Not just multiple visits to 1 troop, but multiple troops. As Eagle94 says the program loses a lot of crossovers; in my experience it's in two stages. Stage 1 we plain have scouts just not want to go to a troop because they didn't find a troop they liked (My pack is still sorting this out but it looks like we just lost 5 of 7 AOLs on Dec 31st, they didn't bother to renew because the pack did 2 troop visits this year (versus 7 last year) and the AOLs and families were not interested in either troop.). Stage 2 we lose crossovers at troops who never rank up past AOL before end of year/renewal (my troop just lost somewhere between 6 to 8 crossovers, we're still sorting out if some families didn't renew on time; however, those 6 to 8 have the same thing in common, they were all AOL on Dec 31st).  To be clear lack of advancement or recognition is a big deal for these crossovers and I think we lost one of them because the CC was his MBC for a MB and ghosted the kid on a MB he completed. I tried to step in because I also MBC that MB and I got ghosted by the CC. (See the other thread where I complain about fiefdoms and not delivering.)

[jcousino]

1 hour ago, Tron said:

The councils pass the core fee in its entirety; councils only retain the council fee. DE's are not trained very well. 

To both of you I want to comment that the DE training is horrible. National waits until a DE is level 2 trained to train them on how to recruit a volunteer district staff. This is a volunteer run organization; the #1 thing every DE should do is know how to identify and recruit volunteers to run their district. 

I think the training for cub scout volunteers needs to emphasis multiple troop visits to a much larger degree. Not just multiple visits to 1 troop, but multiple troops. As Eagle94 says the program loses a lot of crossovers; in my experience it's in two stages. Stage 1 we plain have scouts just not want to go to a troop because they didn't find a troop they liked (My pack is still sorting this out but it looks like we just lost 5 of 7 AOLs on Dec 31st, they didn't bother to renew because the pack did 2 troop visits this year (versus 7 last year) and the AOLs and families were not interested in either troop.). Stage 2 we lose crossovers at troops who never rank up past AOL before end of year/renewal (my troop just lost somewhere between 6 to 8 crossovers, we're still sorting out if some families didn't renew on time; however, those 6 to 8 have the same thing in common, they were all AOL on Dec 31st).  To be clear lack of advancement or recognition is a big deal for these crossovers and I think we lost one of them because the CC was his MBC for a MB and ghosted the kid on a MB he completed. I tried to step in because I also MBC that MB and I got ghosted by the CC. (See the other thread where I complain about fiefdoms and not delivering.)

"Volunteer lead" and "youth lead" are two phrases that are frequently repeated throughout scouting, but are rarely truly implemented. Be a volunteer who questions, and you will not be in that position next time around. My question here is, legally, where does the buck stop if a scout gets hurt at a district event due to failure to follow Scout rules, such as those related to short-term camp? Scoutmaster unit CO volunteer planning commissioner is a DE or ranger if on scout property. So it's truly volunteer-led if you agree with the professionals 

As to youth lead no real training or trainers are time by venture age yes at 10 no

[Eagle94-A1]

10 hours ago, Tron said:

National waits until a DE is level 2 trained to train them on how to recruit a volunteer district staff. This is a volunteer run organization; the #1 thing every DE should do is know how to identify and recruit volunteers to run their district. 

WHAT?!?! Please tell me you are joking. That was a significant part of PDL-1 back in the day. Everything from creating a list of prospects, figuring who to go with you to the prospect, how to dress when approaching the prospect, etc. While we use a nominating committee to get names, DEs were also supposed to come up with names for the nominating committee as well. And if you didn't have a nominating committee....

10 hours ago, Tron said:

I think the training for cub scout volunteers needs to emphasis multiple troop visits to a much larger degree.

Training, as well as the current program, needs to look at the 1990s changes to the program, and readjust. When Cub Scouts was a 3 year program, and Webelos was 9-12 months, Cross Over couldn't happen until May. Problems included  1. not enough time learning AND accepting differences in the programs, not enough time to visit troops,  and not enough time to prepare new Scouts for Summer Camp. I know all about summer camp, because I missed out my first summer. My parents didn't know the troop's leaders well enough, nor could they pay the $75 fee (today's value is $230) in one month.

That is why after adding Tiger Cubs, they also dropped the ages to join, and expanded Webelos to 18-24 months instead of 9-12. It gave more time the transition process. 

More Later

10 hours ago, Tron said:

 

 

 

 

Not just multiple visits to 1 troop, but multiple troops. As Eagle94 says the program loses a lot of crossovers; in my experience it's in two stages. Stage 1 we plain have scouts just not want to go to a troop because they didn't find a troop they liked (My pack is still sorting this out but it looks like we just lost 5 of 7 AOLs on Dec 31st, they didn't bother to renew because the pack did 2 troop visits this year (versus 7 last year) and the AOLs and families were not interested in either troop.). Stage 2 we lose crossovers at troops who never rank up past AOL before end of year/renewal (my troop just lost somewhere between 6 to 8 crossovers, we're still sorting out if some families didn't renew on time; however, those 6 to 8 have the same thing in common, they were all AOL on Dec 31st).  To be clear lack of advancement or recognition is a big deal for these crossovers and I think we lost one of them because the CC was his MBC for a MB and ghosted the kid on a MB he completed. I tried to step in because I also MBC that MB and I got ghosted by the CC. (See the other thread where I complain about fiefdoms and not delivering.)

 

[Tron]

On 1/3/2026 at 11:12 PM, jcousino said:

"Volunteer lead" and "youth lead" are two phrases that are frequently repeated throughout scouting, but are rarely truly implemented. Be a volunteer who questions, and you will not be in that position next time around. My question here is, legally, where does the buck stop if a scout gets hurt at a district event due to failure to follow Scout rules, such as those related to short-term camp? Scoutmaster unit CO volunteer planning commissioner is a DE or ranger if on scout property. So it's truly volunteer-led if you agree with the professionals 

As to youth lead no real training or trainers are time by venture age yes at 10 no

It depends on how the district event is set up and where. If it is an NCAP governed event it falls on the Program Director for the event. The buck passes uphill and downhill to the Program Director in those scenarios. 

If it is not an NCAP governed event it falls on whomever "the lead" is or the council program chair/camping chair/director of field operations/<insert one of the various titles given out council-to-council>.

If you have a non NCAP governed event on an NCAP property the ranger can get pulled into the mess; however, it really depends on a bunch of stuff. 

15 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

WHAT?!?! Please tell me you are joking. That was a significant part of PDL-1 back in the day. Everything from creating a list of prospects, figuring who to go with you to the prospect, how to dress when approaching the prospect, etc. While we use a nominating committee to get names, DEs were also supposed to come up with names for the nominating committee as well. And if you didn't have a nominating committee....

More Later

 

It's all in that second level of training now. I learned this when the lack of recruitment for my district committee hit a fork in the road and I made a "unscoutlike" comment about how I didn't understand why the DE didn't have a nomination committee bringing in new prospects and was resistant to even the discussion. It turned out that the DE was not trained because it's in that level 2 training (which btw these days is not automatic, a DE has to be recommended for it after serving no less than 2 years).