Board of Reviews: Why Have Them

[Eagle94-A1]

So if current Advancement guidelines say the BOR "In most cases it should, instead, be a celebration of accomplishment. Remember, it is more about the journey." p55 GTA 8.0.1.1 Not a Retest or “Examination”, Then why have them?

 

Apparently that is the opinion of one troop that is still around, and another troop that has folded. Found that out tonite when I was talking to my Scouts. One of them has never had a BOR, and he is Second Class.  The other remembers a Tenderfoot BOR when he was in  the troop originally, but did not have one for Second Class through Life. Which explains how the Life Scout skipped through the cracks.

Very frustrated.

[Tron]

The reality is that BOR really are a feedback session. The board should ask questions to the scout to gauge their experience; so instead of "Here's a rope, how do you tie a bowline?" the question should be "Tell us about the last time you tied a bowline and why you did it?"

[Eagle94-A1]

18 minutes ago, Tron said:

The reality is that BOR really are a feedback session. The board should ask questions to the scout to gauge their experience; so instead of "Here's a rope, how do you tie a bowline?" the question should be "Tell us about the last time you tied a bowline and why you did it?"

Correct, not a retest. But the GTA does still say  "  (The BOR's) purpose is to determine the quality of the Scout’s experience and decide whether the requirements for the rank have been fulfilled. (emphasis added).  That can be done by asking questions.  With the Second Class Scout, I have no issues, they actually know their stuff, and the delay has been swimming. Long story short, he was focused on having fun, and wasn't too worried about meetings all of the First Class requirements because he could not pass the swim test. Not that he has passed it, and done the water rescue, he got on it.

But my Life Scout is 100% clueless. He is so dependent on adults and others doing stuff for him, that he does nothing. No participation in discussions,  camp set up and take down, gametime activities, etc. His old troop went to MBUs that have a reputation for giving MBs away. And I should know; I got asked 1 time to teach a MB, listed what needed to be done prior to the class, and gave everyone partials because no one did the work prior to class. I was never asked to teach there again.

Only MBs I can say he honestly earned were the shooting sports ones. he is an avid hunter and can shoot.

 

[fred8033]

1 hour ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

   ... my Life Scout is 100% clueless. ... 

The BOR is NOT the place to correct for years of advancement failures.  ... If a lower advancement standard has been used for years, then it's too generally too late. 

The BOR checks if the requirements were signed off ... and to encourage the scout ... and to collect feedback on how the troop advancement program is doing.  

My apologies if I sound harsh, but if we criticize the scout's advancement at the BOR, then we are really criticizing the troop advancement program for the last few years.  Each rank had many requirements to be met and that the troop designated approver signed off on.  The SM (and his team) should have been watching.  Merit Badges are only one part of a larger more complex set of requirements.  ... AND, sometimes a scout (and his parents) game the system beyond the controls of the troop leadership.  It's ok to be sad for the scout, but not necessarily mad about. 

Edited 2 hours ago by fred8033

[Eagle94-A1]

38 minutes ago, fred8033 said:

The BOR is NOT the place to correct for years of advancement failures.  ... If a lower advancement standard has been used for years, then it's too generally too late. 

Trust me I know. I am lamenting the fact that units can care less about growing the Scout instead of growing the number of Eagles.

38 minutes ago, fred8033 said:

The SM (and his team) should have been watching.  

Sadly the SM was part of the problem. When he took over the troop, many Scouts transferred out to ours.  So it was known what was going on,  but nothing to be done about it outside the COR. 

 

38 minutes ago, fred8033 said:

AND, sometimes a scout (and his parents) game the system beyond the controls of the troop leadership.  It's ok to be sad for the scout, but not necessarily mad about. 

Both family and SM gamed the system. Family left our troop because we insured Scouts actually did what they were supposed to. They specifically went to that troop because they were "high speed low drag." SM picked summer  and winter camps known for giving away MBs. When discussing summer camp last year, the family referred to to summer camp as a place to "purchase MBs." 

It is extremely sad for the Scout. He has not really grown much over the years. He acts like a Tenderfoot still. And family is not helping as they are pushing and pushing to get Eagle. 

But I am mad that there is nothing anyone can do about the situation, i.e. just signing stuff off, except the COR replacing Scouters. And trust me the SM knew better; I trained him. 

And it is frustrating because if anyone needed Scouting, the Life Scout did.

Edited 2 hours ago by Eagle94-A1

[Tron]

49 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

They specifically went to that troop because they were "high speed low drag." SM picked summer  and winter camps known for giving away MBs. When discussing summer camp last year, the family referred to to summer camp as a place to "purchase MBs." 

I am starting to think that Scouting has done this to itself. Scouting is without a doubt significantly cheaper than club sports (which some estimates state are growing at as high as 43% year-over-year for membership); however, summer camp is expensive, way more expensive than a troop setting up it's own 7 day long term camp. I can simply not blame a parent for wanting their scouts to come home from any resident camp scenario with maximum merit badges and awards. Over the last 3 years, summer camp has cost me $350-$500 a head depending on the year/specific resident camp. I know for a fact that I can feed the scouts like kings and set up a 7 day camping experience at a state park for $71 a head. At the same time the Camping MB and OA eligibility require long term camping, not resident camping. 

My kids and I might stop going to summer camp after 2026; they are getting tired of the experience, and I am getting tired of the price and lack of ROI. My youngest would rather go on a family based wilderness campout, my middle kid would prefer cooking higher quality meals for himself, my oldest is sick of all the younger scouts, and I can't believe how horrible the cost to return ratio is. Summer camp 2026 is going to cost my family $1600 and a week of missed work (if we even go in 2026, my oldest is currently pitching a competing national park trip to my other two 😛 ). 

[InquisitiveScouter]

1 hour ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Trust me I know. I am lamenting the fact that units can care less about growing the Scout instead of growing the number of Eagles.

Sadly the SM was part of the problem. When he took over the troop, many Scouts transferred out to ours.  So it was known what was going on,  but nothing to be done about it outside the COR. 

 

Both family and SM gamed the system. Family left our troop because we insured Scouts actually did what they were supposed to. They specifically went to that troop because they were "high speed low drag." SM picked summer  and winter camps known for giving away MBs. When discussing summer camp last year, the family referred to to summer camp as a place to "purchase MBs." 

It is extremely sad for the Scout. He has not really grown much over the years. He acts like a Tenderfoot still. And family is not helping as they are pushing and pushing to get Eagle. 

But I am mad that there is nothing anyone can do about the situation, i.e. just signing stuff off, except the COR replacing Scouters. And trust me the SM knew better; I trained him. 

And it is frustrating because if anyone needed Scouting, the Life Scout did.

There is one thing that you can do... Do not participate in the masquerade.  You are only responsible for what you do, so maintain your integrity, and do not sign off anything you know you shouldn't.

I have made many a Scout a little frustrated and many a parent perhaps a little angry when I refused to sign off something that I did not personally see or test.

Scout: "I tied a diagonal lashing on the camping trip last weekend!"

Me: "Excellent, let me see it you do it again."

<Scout cannot tie a diagonal lashing.>

Me: "OK, let's review how to do this lashing." <demonstrates>

<Scout ties diagonal lashing.> "Ok, will you sign me off on that?"

Me: "Yes, I will sign you off next week when you show it to me again.  Practice and read your Scout Handbook if you need any more pointers."

<Next week, Scout cannot tie diagonal lashing.>  <Wash, rinse, repeat.>

At some point, I get push back from parents or even other leaders.  Then, I pull out the Scout Handbook and reference the four steps of advancement. (which every Scout must know, as a requirement for the Scout badge.)

1.  You learn.  ..."you learn and practice skills that are required for advancement..."

2.  You are tested.  "Once you feel that you have mastered a skill, a leader tests you and passes you on the requirement."

I explain that, in my world of Scouting, if a Scout cannot tie a diagonal lashing from one week to the next, then he has not mastered that skill.

There are other leaders who do sign off something immediately, or upon the Scout saying he has done it, without seeing a demonstration of mastery.

I am only responsible for what I do.

[InquisitiveScouter]

41 minutes ago, Tron said:

I am starting to think that Scouting has done this to itself. Scouting is without a doubt significantly cheaper than club sports (which some estimates state are growing at as high as 43% year-over-year for membership); however, summer camp is expensive, way more expensive than a troop setting up it's own 7 day long term camp. I can simply not blame a parent for wanting their scouts to come home from any resident camp scenario with maximum merit badges and awards. Over the last 3 years, summer camp has cost me $350-$500 a head depending on the year/specific resident camp. I know for a fact that I can feed the scouts like kings and set up a 7 day camping experience at a state park for $71 a head. At the same time the Camping MB and OA eligibility require long term camping, not resident camping. 

My kids and I might stop going to summer camp after 2026; they are getting tired of the experience, and I am getting tired of the price and lack of ROI. My youngest would rather go on a family based wilderness campout, my middle kid would prefer cooking higher quality meals for himself, my oldest is sick of all the younger scouts, and I can't believe how horrible the cost to return ratio is. Summer camp 2026 is going to cost my family $1600 and a week of missed work (if we even go in 2026, my oldest is currently pitching a competing national park trip to my other two 😛 ). 

Encourage you to do this!  Our Scouts chose to do a week long Troop camp in lieu of an "corporate" Summer Camp.

Scouts planned menus and cooked all meals themselves, by patrol.  We rotated those duties so each Scout could either finish the requirements for First Class, or complete Cooking Merit Badge, if First Class was already done.

We rented a private island in a nearby river, Sunday afternoon to Saturday at noon.  Included archery (IAW BSA rules 😛 ), canoes with all gear, and a 4 hour float trip on the river (with transportation).  Adults taught Archery. Wilderness Survival, Cooking, Fishing, Motorboating, and  we even offered Environmental Science, but had no takers...  Scouts loved playing in the river every day (with life jackets on).  We went off island daily for fresh water and to renew our reusable ice packs.  Each patrol brought their food for the first few days, and went went off island for shopping trips on Tuesday and Thursday afternoons. 

Scouts had a great campfire on Friday night where each Patrol did a Song, a skit, and a cheer.  It was one of the best campfire programs I have seen in all my years.

And the average cost was $303.40 per head.  (Some patrols cost more or less, depending on the food they shopped for.)  That is less than half the cost of "corporate" Summer Camp fees in our area.

If we could find a place to camp for free, then your number checks... it would have cost us about $75 per head.

If you can do a week program for $71 per head, the go for it!!!