Flag burning is now illegal? Sorta maybe?

[MattR]

Apparently our commander in chief just said flag burning is illegal. He said when people burn flags other people "go crazy" and start riots and lots of people die and it goes on all across the country and even the world! Any idea how this works with the flag code? Or even the fact that the executive branch can't make laws? Maybe someone needs to take the Cit in the Nation MB. It just drives me crazy when the fundamentals of the flag code are misunderstood and now this, from our elected leader.

So after said leader spewed word salad saying it was now illegal some other guy said that the DOJ would investigate any flag burning and "where there's evidence of criminal activity [and] where prosecution wouldn't fall afoul of first amendment rights ... " then the DOJ should prosecute. Ummmm, what? Sounds like an executive order written to mollify exactly one person. 

So I guess if you peacefully burn a flag in protest then it's okay? I think I might go burn a flag, not in protest but rather to retire it with dignity. But if it doesn't involve first amendment rights then it's illegal, no?

Oh wait, at the same time that this executive order was signed another was signed, directing the DoD to take a larger role in "quelling civil disturbances." Probably all those scouts retiring flags. Maybe this was all just an AI hallucination.

[Tron]

So what's going on is a DC circuit court judge has dictated that burning the Israeli flag is a hate crime; therefore the response is "How is it a hate crime and illegal to burn a foreign nations flag but not illegal to burn our flag?". When stupid people do stupid things it's very common for more stupid things to happen in response.

 

[scoutldr]

Intent matters.  Burning a worn out or soiled flag in a respectful flag retirement ceremony is very different from ripping a flag from a flagpole (that you don't own) and burning it in the street while chanting "Death to America".  While reprehensible, burning a flag in protest has been ruled "free speech".  Theft of a flag, arson, littering, and obstructing a public street or sidewalk without permits is still a crime.  IMHO, the DC circuit court is wrong and should be overturned.  If "hate" is a crime, then most of what goes on in today's politics is a crime. The days of respectful disagreement and discourse is over.  This is a generation of violence if they don't get what they want.

[DuctTape]

I am not a lawyer, and have not read about the case. So with that, please correct me if I am in error.

I thought a "hate crime" was an elevation of a criminal act not a criminal act in and of itself. So burning an (israeli) flag is not a crime, but a crime involving the flag and the expression of the alleged perpetrators could raise the crime level to a "hate crime".

Is this correct?

[Tron]

4 hours ago, DuctTape said:

I am not a lawyer, and have not read about the case. So with that, please correct me if I am in error.

I thought a "hate crime" was an elevation of a criminal act not a criminal act in and of itself. So burning an (israeli) flag is not a crime, but a crime involving the flag and the expression of the alleged perpetrators could raise the crime level to a "hate crime".

Is this correct?

No that's not what I read, what I read is the DC Circuit Court has states that just burning the Israeli flag in itself is a hate crime.

[Tron]

5 hours ago, scoutldr said:

Intent matters.  Burning a worn out or soiled flag in a respectful flag retirement ceremony is very different from ripping a flag from a flagpole (that you don't own) and burning it in the street while chanting "Death to America".  While reprehensible, burning a flag in protest has been ruled "free speech".  Theft of a flag, arson, littering, and obstructing a public street or sidewalk without permits is still a crime.  IMHO, the DC circuit court is wrong and should be overturned.  If "hate" is a crime, then most of what goes on in today's politics is a crime. The days of respectful disagreement and discourse is over.  This is a generation of violence if they don't get what they want.

Yeah the DC circuit court decision is total BS and it's not going to hold up under SCOTUS scrutiny; however, it has to get there. A lot of people are charged with BS crimes every single day but they don't have the money to fight-the-fight. 

[mrjohns2]

I hope burning of any country’s flag is protected speech. Not that I have felt the need to disrespect any country in such way. 

[Tron]

50 minutes ago, mrjohns2 said:

I hope burning of any country’s flag is protected speech. Not that I have felt the need to disrespect any country in such way. 

Well it's not anymore according the DC Circuit Court. That decision has created a space for our government to force a revisit to the SCOTUS decision to say burning the US flag is protected. When this eventually winds it's way back to SCOTUS I hope they thrown out Texas Vs Johnson.

[TheScouterDude]

4 hours ago, Tron said:

No that's not what I read, what I read is the DC Circuit Court has states that just burning the Israeli flag in itself is a hate crime.

Here's an examination of the case regarding Israeli flags:

False claims about burning Israeli flags, based on ToI report, reach Congress

Quote

The judge’s opinion did not create new criminal law, and does not apply to legitimate protest protected by the First Amendment. The judge’s statement, and the article, made no mention of burning Israeli flags, which remains legal. [...]

“The case law is clear that burning any flag is perfectly legal with the exception that, like anything else, it cannot be done with the purpose of threatening someone with violence,” Matthew Mainen, one of the lawyers representing the plaintiff in the case, told The Times of Israel. “You can’t burn any flag, including the American flag, if it could be considered a true threat or incitement of imminent lawless action.”

The judge in the case, Trump appointee Trevor McFadden, equated the flag with Jewish people because the flag bears the Star of David, a symbol of Judaism.

“What McFadden’s ruling does accomplish is that if you burn a Jewish person’s Israeli flag with the requisite intent to intimidate — and it is clearly illegal to burn someone else’s property without their permission — that would be correctly labeled as an antisemitic hate crime,” Mainen said.

The underlying case involves someone who was wearing an Israeli flag being briefly choked when someone tanked on the flag from behind. The case was not about flag burning or damaging a flag; it was about whether the physical assault on a person might be construed as discrimination based in part on the flag used as part of the assault.

Edited 12 hours ago by TheScouterDude