Changing Troop Culture as a New Scouter

[MrGumby]

I was an active Scout from 1990-2002 with my father as Cub/Scoutmaster most of the time. After 3 years as Den Leader, I will be crossing over to the Troop next year with my son. 

The Troop is small, but active, and functions pretty heavily with the Patrol Method...the problems I am seeing in the Troop seem to be resulting from the Patrol Method, unfortunately.  There seems to be a minor culture of "earned prestige" wherein the older Scouts control everything and boss the younger kids around a bit. It doesn't seem to be mean-spirited, more like a "put in your dues" to get off dish duty kind of thing. They have traditionally only had 1 Patrol and I'm hoping with an influx of 10 or so Scouts between this year's crossover and ours next year that will change itself. 

Here's the even bigger issue I have with the Troop...in the last 5 years (+ next year) the Scouts have planned and executed 4 bigger, out of town trips.  This is great, those are the trips that make memories that last a lifetime.  The problem I have is that those trips are all town/civic/history trips with no serious outdoor activity. New York City x2, Gettysburg, and Niagara Falls. They camp on the trips, but obviously it's nothing like High Adventure. 

I've never heard of a backpacking trip, no canoe/kayak, biking, vertical sports, or fishing...we live 3-6 hours from the Appalachian mountains and some real fun adventure destinations like Seneca Rocks, Shenandoah, and the New River Gorge but I've never heard of a trip that didn't land in town. I don't know if that comes down from the Scoutmaster and his son or if it's just because that's just what they know how to plan. I have extensive High Adventure experience and would love to teach these youth how to put together a trip that really rocks...

How should I go about guiding the Scouts into expanding their outdoor repertoire without taking over the Patrol Method and without ruffling feathers in the Troop leadership? 

[RememberSchiff]

@MrGumby welcome to scouter.com.

[RememberSchiff]

Perhaps an adventure trip with your son who snaps photos on his cell and shows to his fellow scouts.  Bottom-up, scout-led changes to troop outdoor program.

Are you an adult leader in Troop?

Edited May 8 by RememberSchiff

[MrGumby]

I am not in Troop leadership yet, planning to join the committee this year and then take on any role needed when my son crosses over. 

Do you think it's a better idea to try to move the Troop into a more adventure-minded position, or just influence the young patrol and hope it catches on? I worry that we won't have any influence and we will just be voted down if we don't have a decent strategy. Ultimately, they get to decide what they do, but I feel like curating the experience to take them outside of their comfort zone is part of what adult leadership is there for...that's how it functioned when I was a Scout. 

Give and take, they pull us out of the wilderness to experience things we wouldn't otherwise, and we pull them out of town into nature...

[Tron]

On 5/7/2025 at 9:17 AM, MrGumby said:

 There seems to be a minor culture of "earned prestige" wherein the older Scouts control everything and boss the younger kids around a bit. It doesn't seem to be mean-spirited, more like a "put in your dues" to get off dish duty kind of thing. They have traditionally only had 1 Patrol and I'm hoping with an influx of 10 or so Scouts between this year's crossover and ours next year that will change itself. 

Here's the even bigger issue I have with the Troop...in the last 5 years (+ next yea

Forget everything else and deal with this right here before making any plans. Part of the patrol method is everyone puts in work. EG: Post grubbing up everyone pitches in to clean up and put the patrol box away. The PL might be drying while the 11yr old crossover is scrubbing, but everyone is putting in work. If the troop has enough scouts to allow anyone to hold down the earth with their posterior then they should have another patrol. 

[MrGumby]

Totally agree with that! For some reason I feel like that is an easier maneuver...direct intervention and guidance seems appropriate there and less so in the overall direction the scouts are taking.

[DuctTape]

As far as changing "troop culture", unless it is the SM with agreeable ASM, it is near impossible. 

It is much easier to change Patrol Culture as the Patrol makes their decisions. This is best accomplished by having the Patrol choose events separate from the other patrols.

[fred8033]

On 5/9/2025 at 10:35 AM, DuctTape said:

As far as changing "troop culture", unless it is the SM with agreeable ASM, it is near impossible. 

100% agree.  Changing troop culture is nearly impossible as a new parent.  It takes years.  ... So for now, ask yourself ... can your son benefit, grow and enjoy the culture that currently exists.  Will your scout have a positive scouting experience?  Adventure?  There is no perfect troop culture, but even a less than ideal scouting troop can be a big positive.

Separately, to make change, plan that it takes years.  Start by serving the troop that exists now.  Build friendships and connections.  Over time, other leaders will see your investment in the troop.  Once you have positive credibility with the troop, then you can take on roles such as SM/ASM where you can influence the culture.  This takes years though.  If you push too hard too fast, you will alienate people.

 

On 5/9/2025 at 10:35 AM, DuctTape said:

It is much easier to change Patrol Culture as the Patrol makes their decisions. This is best accomplished by having the Patrol choose events separate from the other patrols.

Be careful here too.  Patrols are guide by the SPL and SM.  You risk alienating yourself and causing issues if your words and actions are not aligned with the SM.

 

On 5/7/2025 at 9:17 AM, MrGumby said:

... After 3 years as Den Leader, I will be crossing over to the Troop next year with my son. ...

My apologies if I'm nit picking here.  I'm not trying to be a jerk.  ...  BUT, your son is crossing over.  It's his scouting experience.  His adventure.  You can look for ways you can help the troop.  AND, your son will definitely see you value scouting if you volunteer to help.  ... "I will be crossing over" is a red flag that always makes me think about does the adult realize the youth scout is to have their own scouting experience.  
 

Edited Monday at 05:02 PM by fred8033

[Tron]

10 hours ago, fred8033 said:

100% agree.  Changing troop culture is nearly impossible as a new parent.  It takes years.  ... So for now, ask yourself ... can your son benefit, grow and enjoy the culture that currently exists.  Will your scout have a positive scouting experience?  Adventure?  There is no perfect troop culture, but even a less than ideal scouting troop can be a big positive.

Separately, to make change, plan that it takes years.  Start by serving the troop that exists now.  Build friendships and connections.  Over time, other leaders will see your investment in the troop.  Once you have positive credibility with the troop, then you can take on roles such as SM/ASM where you can influence the culture.  This takes years though.  If you push too hard too fast, you will alienate people.

 

Be careful here too.  Patrols are guide by the SPL and SM.  You risk alienating yourself and causing issues if your words and actions are not aligned with the SM.

 

My apologies if I'm nit picking here.  I'm not trying to be a jerk.  ...  BUT, your son is crossing over.  It's his scouting experience.  His adventure.  You can look for ways you can help the troop.  AND, your son will definitely see you value scouting if you volunteer to help.  ... "I will be crossing over" is a red flag that always makes me think about does the adult realize the youth scout is to have their own scouting experience.  
 

I don't know about this; there is some truth here but some issues. Taking years to fix troop culture isn't really a thing; either a troop is open to improving or a troop is not. If you're traveling true you sometimes get knocked off course; however, the intent to be on course is there, and you have to want to be on course and stay on course. If troop leadership has no intent on staying on course (running the program), it's intervention time or find a new troop time. I think we all see this in our own little areas of the country, lots of packs and troops are failing and shutting down; the reason in my area is clear, when a post mortem is performed it always points to the unit was not running the program and eventually killed itself. 

[MrGumby]

17 hours ago, fred8033 said:

100% agree.  Changing troop culture is nearly impossible as a new parent.  It takes years.  ... So for now, ask yourself ... can your son benefit, grow and enjoy the culture that currently exists.  Will your scout have a positive scouting experience?  Adventure?  There is no perfect troop culture, but even a less than ideal scouting troop can be a big positive.

Separately, to make change, plan that it takes years.  Start by serving the troop that exists now.  Build friendships and connections.  Over time, other leaders will see your investment in the troop.  Once you have positive credibility with the troop, then you can take on roles such as SM/ASM where you can influence the culture.  This takes years though.  If you push too hard too fast, you will alienate people.

 

Be careful here too.  Patrols are guide by the SPL and SM.  You risk alienating yourself and causing issues if your words and actions are not aligned with the SM.

 

My apologies if I'm nit picking here.  I'm not trying to be a jerk.  ...  BUT, your son is crossing over.  It's his scouting experience.  His adventure.  You can look for ways you can help the troop.  AND, your son will definitely see you value scouting if you volunteer to help.  ... "I will be crossing over" is a red flag that always makes me think about does the adult realize the youth scout is to have their own scouting experience.  
 

Thanks for the thoughtful response 👍

I think Scouting will be a positive experience for my son even if I can't move the Troop to more a more outdoor experience.  I actually think it's great that through Troop involvement he will participate in activities and outings that I would never plan for our family. That was part of what made Scouting great for me, that expansion into areas that otherwise would have been unexplored.  

To your final point, I don't think you are nitpicking, but I do think we have a fundamental difference of opinion.  Scouting is something that I did WITH my father. I understand that is not everyone's experience, but it's a very common experience, it was a phenomenal one, and it's one I intend to replicate. Positive adult relationships and mentoring are at the heart of Scouting right along with fostering leadership skills. Patrol Method is great, but it's not Lord of the Flies and adult leadership is there to curate and guide the Scouting experience.

I think there's a healthy balance between the two extremes of a Scoutmaster that parks in a camp chair by the fire and becomes an ornament or the parent that drops off in the parking lot and never gets out of the car and a helicopter parent leader who never lets the youth really try the Patrol Method.

I don't think it's unreasonable to say that my adult leadership crosses over also, as that is simply the reality.  I also don't think that my involvement prevents my Scout from having his own experience, that certainly wasn't the case for myself or the other Scouts who had fathers in leadership with the Troop.  

[fred8033]

4 hours ago, MrGumby said:

Thanks for the thoughtful response 👍

I think Scouting will be a positive experience for my son even if I can't move the Troop to more a more outdoor experience.  I actually think it's great that through Troop involvement he will participate in activities and outings that I would never plan for our family. That was part of what made Scouting great for me, that expansion into areas that otherwise would have been unexplored.  

To your final point, I don't think you are nitpicking, but I do think we have a fundamental difference of opinion.  Scouting is something that I did WITH my father. I understand that is not everyone's experience, but it's a very common experience, it was a phenomenal one, and it's one I intend to replicate. Positive adult relationships and mentoring are at the heart of Scouting right along with fostering leadership skills. Patrol Method is great, but it's not Lord of the Flies and adult leadership is there to curate and guide the Scouting experience.

I think there's a healthy balance between the two extremes of a Scoutmaster that parks in a camp chair by the fire and becomes an ornament or the parent that drops off in the parking lot and never gets out of the car and a helicopter parent leader who never lets the youth really try the Patrol Method.

I don't think it's unreasonable to say that my adult leadership crosses over also, as that is simply the reality.  I also don't think that my involvement prevents my Scout from having his own experience, that certainly wasn't the case for myself or the other Scouts who had fathers in leadership with the Troop.  

Well said. 

"with my father" ... I can respect that.  I fear this might be a psychology of the troop and a BSA training conflict.  Strictly speaking, scouts are to socialize with scouts in their scouting activities and then with the other adults.  In conflict, I also attending most scouting activities with my kids, but I tried to keep myself on the outskirts ... mostly.  ... It is a pull/push or a training vs reality issue.  ... I'm not sure there is a perfect answer other than making sure the scouts have positive growing experiences. 

"adult leadership crosses over" ... is really up to the troop leaders you are joining.  They may very well be open to your immediately getting into a leadership role.  They may want you to wait a year.  They may have some in-between.  ... Number one thing is to make a healthy connection with the existing unit leaders.

Edited Tuesday at 03:36 PM by fred8033

[acco40]

On 5/12/2025 at 1:00 PM, fred8033 said:

Patrols are guide by the SPL and SM.  You risk alienating yourself and causing issues if your words and actions are not aligned with the SM.  
 

I always thought Patrols are guided by the Patrol Leader.  Now, the SPL guides the PL but the SPL should not be guiding the patrol nor should the SM (directly) - that usurps the PL function.

[acco40]

On 5/13/2025 at 11:35 AM, fred8033 said:

Well said. 

"with my father" ... I can respect that.  I fear this might be a psychology of the troop and a BSA training conflict.  Strictly speaking, scouts are to socialize with scouts in their scouting activities and then with the other adults.  In conflict, I also attending most scouting activities with my kids, but I tried to keep myself on the outskirts ... mostly.  ... It is a pull/push or a training vs reality issue.  ... I'm not sure there is a perfect answer other than making sure the scouts have positive growing experiences. 

"adult leadership crosses over" ... is really up to the troop leaders you are joining.  They may very well be open to your immediately getting into a leadership role.  They may want you to wait a year.  They may have some in-between.  ... Number one thing is to make a healthy connection with the existing unit leaders.

To combat "Daddy interference", as a Scoutmaster I was also the Patrol Leader of the Rockers (our patrol badge was a rocking chair).  It was made up of the adults on the particular outing - Scouters or not.  When Daddy hovered around junior a little too much, I'd assign him a patrol function in the Rocker patrol.

One of issues I seemed to always run into before I did this was having the adults critique the menu plan and and take over cooking duties.  Eating as a patrol (Rockers) and not getting in the way of their son's (and now daughter's) patrol was the goal.  I'd also allow the SPL and ASPL to eat with the Rockers (adult patrol) if they so desired as a guest (they didn't have to cook or clean up).  This did two things I thought were beneficial.  One, it allowed for me to review how the outing was going with the SPL and give him some feedback (as well receiving feedback from the SPL) and just as important, kept the SPL from overshadowing the PL during their dining. 

My personal style was to always allow adults a leadership position (ASM) if they requested it (sort of like a Cub Scout asking to join a troop).  Then as the Scoutmaster I'd assign them a duty commensurate with their skill set and willingness to do it.  If they wanted a committee position, that was up to the Committee Chair.

P.S.  Same approach for "Mommy's" too. 

Edited 8 hours ago by acco40

[qwazse]

Regarding your original question about choices of activities: they evolve as the troop evolves. The bad news: a huge influx of crossovers will require you to focus your on basic skills and relatively short hikes to campsites. Nothing can make a 1st year hate backpacking like 4 hard miles in backcountry. On the other hand, with proper conditioning, they will be begging for a 4 day midweek outing in the middle of Dolly Sods.

Regarding load balancing of chores: it takes attending multiple events to understand those dynamics. You may have seen a weekend where the younger scouts did the dishes, but on the previous camp out they may have been the cooks. You might not have seen the hours after the first trip that the older scouts had put in cleaning carbon from pots, or the hours before the trip you were on that they spent organizing gear with the QM. Attend several consecutive outings, and you might be qualified to put a bug in the SM’s ear about patterns of behavior that should be reformed.

[fred8033]

2 hours ago, acco40 said:

I always thought Patrols are guided by the Patrol Leader.  Now, the SPL guides the PL but the SPL should not be guiding the patrol nor should the SM (directly) - that usurps the PL function.

Argumentative.  Patrol includes the patrol leader.  The connection between SPL and non-PL patrol members is the PL.  The point of the original sentence was that the guidance for the patrol (including PL) is thru the SM and the SPL and that parents need to be careful trying to influence the patrol (both patrol leader and patrol member).