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Accidental shooting at Aloha Council camp news


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3 hours ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

Here is someone else's perspective I am evaluating, but do not currently agree with:

https://www.kake.com/story/47530873/opinion-why-im-rethinking-boy-scouts-for-my-son

Edited 3 hours ago by InquisitiveScouter

The author is all over the place and seems to be looking for reasons to take his son out of scouting.  His expectations are unrealistic during an ongoing police investigation.  The only part that I do agree with in his article is that this is the right opportunity for BSA to look at its shooting programs with a discerning eye to see where it can be improved. I strongly believe that shooting has a role in scouting, but BSA needs to make sure that its rule, roles, and responsibilities are focused on if there are changes needed to teach gun safety to today's youth.  Not only the mechanics of using a firearm, but the right mindset and culture. 

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Just to be clear, accidental death, sometimes called involuntary manslaughter, is still a crime. In the military it can lead to dishonorable discharge and/or jail. An example I found of involuntary ma

Intentional or not has nothing to do with if the incident was the result of negligence.  Negligence occurs when someone fails to do something, like make sure a loaded semi-automatic weapon is not able

If a child is dead -- no matter where -- when supposedly responsible adults were present I sure hope there would be a lot of charges.  I have to say I am not finding that the direction this conversati

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10 hours ago, yknot said:

Interesting opinion piece. I'm not anti firearms for youth but I no longer think BSA has the organizational competence, consistently delivered across the board, to oversee a youth shooting sports program -- along with a few other things. 

My experience is BSA does a solid job. Perhaps, the Guide to Safe Shooting and it's implementation needs to be revisited yet again to remove remaining quality control variances that can allow incidents to happen.  ... Perhaps  should 1st graders be allowed to use any type of bow and arrow or bb-gun?   I'm not sure.  

Sadly, BSA is the only national level organization that broadly offers a youth shooting sports activity.  I doubt the YMCA will expand to pick up the responsibility.  

Kids benefit from physical exposure to guns and how to safely handle them.  It removes the mystic and teaches knowledge and responsibilities. 

Edited by fred8033
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36 minutes ago, fred8033 said:

Sadly, BSA is the only national level organization that broadly offers a youth shooting sports activity.  I doubt the YMCA will expand to pick up the responsibility. 

There are others. These come to mind, I don't know about the YMCA. I have had scouts who migrated to competitive shooting in CMP (rifle and pistol) and Scholastic Clays  (shotgun)

National 4-H Shooting Program

Civilian Marksmanship Program  (Youth)

Scholastic Shooting Sports

American Legion Junior Shooting Sports

U.S. Army JROTC

Royal Rangers National Shooting Sports Program (NSSP)

USA Shooting (Olympics team)

 

Edited by RememberSchiff
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9 hours ago, yknot said:

... it is still one of the preferred firearms that have been involved in high profile cases. ...  Even among shooting families, you can go all the way to the Olympics in  youth marksmanship and never encounter one. They are not used. I've had any number of parents emphatically clarifying that their youth use different weapons for their competitions and practices. 

Preferred?  It's actually not.  Handguns first.  Second is an AR-15 styled riffle.  The AK47 riffle is an outlier ... from what I've read.   Depending on "mass shooting" definition, you will see it's one use every several years to less used.  As of May 2022, this noted a previous use from 2019.  Rest were handguns or AR-15 styled.   https://www.usnews.com/news/politics/articles/2022-05-27/mass-shooters-exploited-gun-laws-loopholes-before-carnage ...

Perhaps, it's better said that "assault styled" weapons are the preferred firearm.   But that is not useful either as it's way, way overly broad as it can include many handguns today too.    

Not used in competitions and practices?  ... From what I've read ... it's because the AK-47 is not known for accuracy.  Marksmanship and competitions would not use an AK-47 gun.

If the teaching moment is awareness of styles of guns, teh AK-47 seems appropriate.  World-wide the AK-47 is more common than AR-15 ... from what I've read.  

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7 minutes ago, RememberSchiff said:

I'd like to see numerical comparison (seriously).  Almost every scout that goes to summer camp experiences the shooting sports programs.   I'm not aware of 4-H having shooting ranges or a broadly offered program.  

I appreciate your post.  Thank you.

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7 minutes ago, fred8033 said:

I'd like to see numerical comparison (seriously).  Almost every scout that goes to summer camp experiences the shooting sports programs.   I'm not aware of 4-H having shooting ranges or a broadly offered program.  

I appreciate your post.  Thank you.

4-H teaches, according to them, about 500,000 youth per year. My local experience with it is that it is generally run out of local recreation and gun clubs that run programs all year long and have competitive shooting teams. From what I've seen, it is on a higher level and more closely managed than what I've seen at scout camps. It's a 4-H club with volunteer leaders, but it is generally overseen or run in consultation with professionals. 

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39 minutes ago, fred8033 said:

Preferred?  It's actually not.  Handguns first.  Second is an AR-15 styled riffle.  The AK47 riffle is an outlier ... from what I've read.   Depending on "mass shooting" definition, you will see it's one use every several years to less used.  As of May 2022, this noted a previous use from 2019.  Rest were handguns or AR-15 styled.   https://www.usnews.com/news/politics/articles/2022-05-27/mass-shooters-exploited-gun-laws-loopholes-before-carnage ...

Perhaps, it's better said that "assault styled" weapons are the preferred firearm.   But that is not useful either as it's way, way overly broad as it can include many handguns today too.    

Not used in competitions and practices?  ... From what I've read ... it's because the AK-47 is not known for accuracy.  Marksmanship and competitions would not use an AK-47 gun.

If the teaching moment is awareness of styles of guns, teh AK-47 seems appropriate.  World-wide the AK-47 is more common than AR-15 ... from what I've read.  

I don't know what the point is of how far up or down on the list these rifles fall. They have all been used in mass shootings. They have a connotation because of that to the general public that they are the preferred weapons of choice of mass shooters. They are not what the general public envisions in a scout's hand at a scout shooting range and most do not understand distinctions of use they just see the acronyms. 

To clarify, at many youth competitions and practices, you do not see guns like AK47s or AR15s or whatever other acronym I am not including. I am not selecting a list, I am discussing context and connotation for the general public who may not be fully aware of what the BSA shooting program entails.  

 

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3 hours ago, yknot said:

4-H teaches, according to them, about 500,000 youth per year. My local experience with it is that it is generally run out of local recreation and gun clubs that run programs all year long and have competitive shooting teams. From what I've seen, it is on a higher level and more closely managed than what I've seen at scout camps. It's a 4-H club with volunteer leaders, but it is generally overseen or run in consultation with professionals. 

Thank you.  I had to find the reference.  I was surprised.

https://4-hshootingsports.org/#:~:text=Each year%2C 4-H teaches,boys and girls each year.

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  • 2 months later...

Lawsuit filed against the council & BSA.  

Suit against Boy Scouts: ‘Pattern of failures’ led to fatal shooting of 11-year-old at Hawaii campsite (hawaiinewsnow.com)

 one of the Scout parents brought about a dozen firearms, including an AK-47 semi-automatic assault rifle, an AR-15, an M-4 carbine, four shotguns, and four Glock pistols.

 

As children were shooting high-powered rifles, the lawsuit says, no safety official was overseeing the range or tables filled with guns and ammo. Carvalho was sitting in a chair behind the firing line, when another boy picked up the AK-47 and set it back down, an act that discharged a round that hit Carvalho in the back of his head.

There was no magazine in the rifle, but a round had been left in the chamber. something the family believes could have been prevented had safety protocols been in place.

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The suit, for example, says the camp ignored a ban on human-shaped and zombie targets and didn’t limit firearms to “22-caliber breech-loading, single-shot or a repeater type bolt-action rifles with a boxstyle magazine.”

I'm of mixed opinion on the target limitation. I'm not sure how much of that is safety related vs PR related, as there can be a lot of problematic choices of say zombified versions of political figures or controversial figures. And certainly there's every incentive to drag in the deeper pockets of the local council vs the troop leaders. But if there's a history of violations of the shooting sports rules at the camp, then they'll deserve every financial penalty they get. That said, it does sound like this troop went rogue on what they brought to the firing line.

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54 minutes ago, malraux said:

I'm of mixed opinion on the target limitation. I'm not sure how much of that is safety related vs PR related, as there can be a lot of problematic choices of say zombified versions of political figures or controversial figures. And certainly there's every incentive to drag in the deeper pockets of the local council vs the troop leaders. But if there's a history of violations of the shooting sports rules at the camp, then they'll deserve every financial penalty they get. That said, it does sound like this troop went rogue on what they brought to the firing line.

BSA has clear rules that the unit violated.  I'm not sure what else the BSA could have done to prevent this.  

Now, the council who owns the camp.  If any council employee was aware of this situation or gave approval, then the council should be held liable.  If it simply happened at their camp, without their approval nor seen by any employee ... then I struggle to see how they are liable.  If all the council did was having unapproved targets, I struggle to see how that would be blamed for this incident.

Unit leaders & CO ... could be held liable.  How was the barrel not pointed down range?   No safety official overseeing the range is disturbing.  Ammo on tables happens all the time and is fine.  Same with guns (though these clearly violate BSA policy).  

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Just now, Eagle1993 said:

BSA has clear rules that the unit violated.  I'm not sure what else the BSA could have done to prevent this.  

Now, the council who owns the camp.  If any council employee was aware of this situation or gave approval, then the council should be held liable.  If it simply happened at their camp, without their approval nor seen by any employee ... then I struggle to see how they are liable.  If all the council did was having unapproved targets, I struggle to see how that would be blamed for this incident.

Unit leaders & CO ... could be held liable.  How was the barrel not pointed down range?   No safety official overseeing the range is disturbing.  Ammo on tables happens all the time and is fine.  Same with guns (though these clearly violate BSA policy).  

In theory, the BSA approves the operation of the camp as a property through NCAP inspections. The camp should have procedures to be sure that units are following procedures while on property. And while minor things can be missed, the camp should have known the unit was at the range shooting. 

Though yes, I suspect that the bulk of the liability falls on the unit leaders, the lawsuit will certainly want to show that the camp/council were not following the published guidelines.

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1 hour ago, Eagle1993 said:

Now, the council who owns the camp.  If any council employee was aware of this situation or gave approval, then the council should be held liable.  If it simply happened at their camp, without their approval nor seen by any employee ... then I struggle to see how they are liable.  If all the council did was having unapproved targets, I struggle to see how that would be blamed for this incident.

I would think that the parents could argue that the Council, who owns the camp, did not provide sufficient oversight and control of their range if they allowed this to occur.  At a minimum, call the council's overall management and the approval for use process into intense scrutiny.  

 

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21 minutes ago, Navybone said:

I would think that the parents could argue that the Council, who owns the camp, did not provide sufficient oversight and control of their range if they allowed this to occur.  At a minimum, call the council's overall management and the approval for use process into intense scrutiny.  

 

The council defense is probably flimsy.  I would think they would settle.

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