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mrkstvns

What constitutes an "Eagle Factory"?

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1 hour ago, mrkstvns said:

a girl who has been locked out of the program until now will want the chance to achieve the same goals as boys. 

"Locked out of the program".....interesting starting point for a discussion

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1 hour ago, Jameson76 said:

"Locked out of the program".....interesting starting point for a discussion

I really didn't mean to be controversial.

I just meant that up until this year, there were girls who wanted an outdoors-oriented program like Boy Scouts but the reality was that the organization's rules didn't let them join. 

Not implying any kind of deliberate malice, just that it is what it was....

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Jameson76 said:

"Locked out of the program".....interesting starting point for a discussion

 

1 hour ago, mrkstvns said:

I really didn't mean to be controversial.

... the reality was that the organization's rules didn't let them join.

:rolleyes:Organizations', plural: decades of GS/USA leaders who thought they knew what was best for all girls (and it wasn't Golden Eaglet or First Class) and BSA leaders who thought their girl-facing counterparts were right.

That all leadership training (detached from the outdoors and patriotism) was leadership training and the youth would never know the difference.

Bill Hillcourt pulled BSA away from that brink, but their was nobody to do the same for GS/USA. Thus was generated the vacuum that parents and empathetic scouters (and girls themselves) asked us to fill.

But what I find quite surprising in the two Scouts BSA girl troops who I've met: the rush to Eagle is not that great. They just want to hike and camp and maybe fish. They want the chance to be nationally recognized, but I don't think any of them have earned 1st class yet. The leaders aren't high-speed low-drag people. They just got sick of the "tailored for girls" organization telling them "no, just sell those cookies" at every turn.

Edited by qwazse
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31 minutes ago, qwazse said:

But what I find quite surprising in the two Scouts BSA girl troops who I've met: the rush to Eagle is not that great. They just want to hike and camp and maybe fish. They want the chance to be nationally recognized, but I don't think any of them have earned 1st class yet. The leaders aren't high-speed low-drag people. They just got sick of the "tailored for girls" organization telling them "no, just sell those cookies" at every turn.

You might be surprised to learn that I think the desire by the girls is even less than "not that great". Based from my experience of life, I believe most of the Eagle push here is the adults. I don't have the experience of working with girls in advancement, but I have worked with them in competitive sports and their motivation to participate was more about fun than winning. The difference isn't obvious when the girls played girls, but quite obvious when they played the boys.

Barry

 

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53 minutes ago, qwazse said:

... They just want to hike and camp and maybe fish.  ...

Fully agree.  It's not gender specific.  People want to spend their time in a meaningful way.  Advancement for advancement sake is not meaningful.  Hiking.  Camping.  Fishing. ...  "ing" is meaningful especially when it's a new experience.

10 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

... I believe most of the Eagle push here is the adults ... 

I agree.  Parents invest and drive their kids to things.  They want to see a measure that the investment is worthwhile.  They see it in the rank.  I see it every time there is a slight bit more maturity in my kid after a scouting activity or event.  

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13 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

You might be surprised to learn that I think the desire by the girls is even less than "not that great". Based from my experience of life, I believe most of the Eagle push here is the adults. I don't have the experience of working with girls in advancement, but I have worked with them in competitive sports and their motivation to participate was more about fun than winning. The difference isn't obvious when the girls played girls, but quite obvious when they played the boys....

Our soccer girls were vicious competitors. (Half my job as crew advisor was talking them out of wanting to finish the season with a red card.) But they also conditioned in the off-season with the boys, so that may have influenced their attitude. That said, I tried to pitch awards and recognition to the lot -- because many weren't pursuing a GS award -- and it fell on deaf ears. The same went for the boys who weren't already scouts.

There is a down-side to that lack of interest. It translates into a lack of commitment to organizing activities. But, it doesn't help when parents "take up the slack" and do the organization on the kids' behalf. I mean, the unit has fun -- for a while -- but leadership deficits go unnoticed. You can't develop if you don't know what you're lacking.

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9 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

but I have worked with them in competitive sports and their motivation to participate was more about fun than winning. The difference isn't obvious when the girls played girls, but quite obvious when they played the boys.

Barry

 

Huh.  They might have "said" they were just in it to have fun, but I wonder if that was just because that was the "proper" answer for girls.  Because all the girls I've met in competitive sports are every bit as driven as the boys, and often far more physically aggressive in the realm of fouls, body checks & underwater shenanigans (water polo).

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3 minutes ago, qwazse said:

There is a down-side to that lack of interest. It translates into a lack of commitment to organizing activities. But, it doesn't help when parents "take up the slack" and do the organization on the kids' behalf. I mean, the unit has fun -- for a while -- but leadership deficits go unnoticed. You can't develop if you don't know what you're lacking.

You just described the number one reason why units loose their older scouts. 

If the program were left totally to the scouts, First Class would be way down the list and fishing would come way up. But let's be fair to ourselves, we talk idealistically, however, realistically the adults have to instill some expectations depending on the maturity of scouts. If a scout doesn't know what they don't know, the adults have to at least give a starting point.

The problem is that adults don't know how far is too far. Learning the line that can be crossed requires reflecting on experience and courage to step back. Cubs is still an adult driven program, so it's easy for adults to push their ideals on the scouts to far without taking away much from the program. However, Troop level scouts is the real character building level of the program, so adult intrusion has measurable effects on a scout's growth. The problem for us scouters is that we don't see our negative influences instantly, sometimes it takes several months, even years. Reflection and evaluation takes a lot practice. The key is keeping the eye on the prize of developing youth who make ethical and moral decisions based from the scout law. 

Barry

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25 minutes ago, elitts said:

Huh.  They might have "said" they were just in it to have fun, but I wonder if that was just because that was the "proper" answer for girls.  Because all the girls I've met in competitive sports are every bit as driven as the boys, and often far more physically aggressive in the realm of fouls, body checks & underwater shenanigans (water polo).

There was no discussion, it was performance. I can't explain your experience, only mine. I will say that my experience was with girls 10 and under. That is when my daughter decided competitive dance was the direction she wanted to go. 

But you might be right, I attended a lot of dance competitions and there was nothing fun about them (I still think my daughter owes me for sacrificing that part of my life). Competitive male dancers stuck out because there was one boy for every 200 girls. That one boy sure was competitive.  I never saw any body check shenanigans at these competitions, probably because there were a lot of bored dads looking for any opportunity to blow the whistle or throw a flag.

Barry

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24 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

Because all the girls I've met in competitive sports are every bit as driven as the boys, and often far more physically aggressive in the realm of fouls, body checks & underwater shenanigans (water polo).

Those of us who have coached or officiated girls know this to be fact.  The only time I had to issue a red card in a soccer match was to a girl on a U18 premier team.  Whistle was blown for a foul before she even hit the ground, yet she jumped up and kicked the other player square in the chest. (as an aside, after the match the girls on her team thanked me for sending her off, as this seemed to be typical behavior for her)

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2 hours ago, MikeS72 said:

Those of us who have coached or officiated girls know this to be fact.  The only time I had to issue a red card in a soccer match was to a girl on a U18 premier team.  Whistle was blown for a foul before she even hit the ground, yet she jumped up and kicked the other player square in the chest. (as an aside, after the match the girls on her team thanked me for sending her off, as this seemed to be typical behavior for her)

I would agree.  I coached a lot of travel youth soccer back in the day, the boys teams.  I would referee (center) and sometimes I had guys from my team as linesman.  We officiated girls games on occasion and those were no holds barred matches.  Yes they were slighter and maybe not as flat out fast as their contemporary boys, (high school age) but they hit as hard, fought as hard, and definitely held a grudge from earlier plays in the match.  My guys doing line commented that the girls were way more vicious than he might have imagined.

Competitive and driven also, do not sell the fairer sex (can I say that??) short

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Posted (edited)
On 5/10/2019 at 2:28 AM, ParkMan said:

we're a farily large troop (about 75 active scouts) and have had a pretty stable program for many years.  

 

Quote

We're definitly not an Eagle mill troop.  What I see is that the troop adults are trying to foster success in as many of the eight methods as possible.  It's not a concious plan, it just happens.  T

I would disagree with you on this. Based on what you have said about your troop I think it is most certainly a conscious decision. But the decision is not to "make Eagles". The decision has been to help the Scouts create a great program. A program that clearly keeps youth engaged and having fun. If troops do this, they will have Scouts earn Eagle. 

Quote

My conclusion from all this?  Focus on having a great, well rounded program that keeps Scouts engaged throughout the years.  The rest happens naturally.

As I said in an earlier post, Eagle mills usually are not sustainable. Their focus is on the wrong thing and Scouts and Leaders burn out.

Troops that build good program are sustainable and will ALSO help Scouts earn their Eagle. 

To paraphrase a line popular in real estate, its all about PROGRAM, PROGRAM, PROGRAM

Edited by HelpfulTracks
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