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Eagle94-A1

Why Can't Adults Trust the Scouts

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2 hours ago, ItsBrian said:

I’m not saying that the Eagle Scout is right or anything, he shouldn’t be talking back first of all.

Why do you require closed toe shoes? I understand for camping trips, hikes, events, etc. But if it’s  just a simple meeting why do you need them?

We do it to be consistent.  No open toed shoes at scout functions; meetings, outings, service projects, etc.  Just easier to implement and our meetings are very active.

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2 hours ago, Jameson76 said:

We do it to be consistent.  No open toed shoes at scout functions; meetings, outings, service projects, etc.  Just easier to implement and our meetings are very active.

We do it too. It prevents injuries.

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9 hours ago, ItsBrian said:

I’m not saying that the Eagle Scout is right or anything, he shouldn’t be talking back first of all.

Why do you require closed toe shoes? I understand for camping trips, hikes, events, etc. But if it’s  just a simple meeting why do you need them?

Our meetings are active, not just sitting and the boys helped to write the code of conduct and decided that was the rule.  They also require boys to be in a field uniform shirt or not attend.  Their rules that they wanted to follow, so we all follow them.  Adults shouldn't feel that they don't have to follow the rules because they are older.

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11 minutes ago, mashmaster said:

They also require boys to be in a field uniform shirt or not attend.  

We don't require scouts to buy uniforms. If scouts do wear the uniform, we expect them to wear it correctly. 

 

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1 minute ago, David CO said:

We don't require scouts to buy uniforms. If scouts do wear the uniform, we expect them to wear it correctly. 

 

Really? What about district camporees or summer camp? Or COHs?

20 minutes ago, mashmaster said:

Our meetings are active, not just sitting and the boys helped to write the code of conduct and decided that was the rule.  They also require boys to be in a field uniform shirt or not attend.  Their rules that they wanted to follow, so we all follow them.  Adults shouldn't feel that they don't have to follow the rules because they are older.

Same way for my troop. Class A to every meeting besides summer. (We meet in a basement with poor ventilation so it’s either freezing or boiling hot).

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On 1/30/2018 at 5:51 PM, gblotter said:

This.

If the tent is not their own, our Scouts take no particular care in how it is used, maintained and stored. It is too frustrating to see troop funds abused in this way, so we eliminated troop tents. Most of our Scouting families are well-equipped with their own camping gear, so it really has not been a problem.

Our troop's problem with personal tents has been vandalism and other scouts not being respectful of their troopmate's property.  That said, my sons had personal tents and had zero problems.  Our troop had a rule that any scout could bring a personal tent.  If they were Star Scout and above, they didn't need a tentmate.  Below Star they needed a tentmate.  This was the existing culture when I started as a leader. Personally, I would have made that a First Class Scout privilege, but wasn't my choice to make.

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10 hours ago, ItsBrian said:

I’m not saying that the Eagle Scout is right or anything, he shouldn’t be talking back first of all.

Why do you require closed toe shoes? I understand for camping trips, hikes, events, etc. But if it’s  just a simple meeting why do you need them?

Closed toed shoes is the basic rule for all scouting activities in my Council, even meetings.  That said, my boys' troop was a full uniform troop (including socks), and the sandal/BSA green sock look isn't a good one.  

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1 hour ago, ItsBrian said:

Really? What about district camporees or summer camp? Or COHs?

Haven't you ever met a scout unit that opted out of uniforms? BSA doesn't require them.

What I find odd...is scout units that require a uniform shirt, but then allow it to be worn with blue jeans. They require something that BSA rules don't require and then allow something that BSA rules don't allow. 

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1 hour ago, David CO said:

Haven't you ever met a scout unit that opted out of uniforms? BSA doesn't require them.

I don’t believe so. Every summer camp/camporee required class a at dining hall, ceremonies, etc.

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On 1/31/2018 at 3:58 PM, AVTech said:

Barry-

No, failure is an appropriate term.

It is!

I also like crash and burned.

Once I said it to a Scout with out thinking really, it’s just part of my vernacular growing up.

I looked at him shaking my head and said “you really crashed and burned on that one.” I then wondered if that might not be appropriate for some reason. 

The Scout chuckled and said “yeah, I did.” Next thing I know the Scouts were using it and coming up with their own spins in it. Some were pretty funny.

I think it worked because it really gets the point across that they screwed up, but it doesn’t feel as harsh or judgmental as saying you failed. 

The best part was they used it as a friendly way to poke at each other and busted their tails they wouldn’t crash and burn again.

Just goes to show that sometimes the most effective things happen by accident.

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Update. Not only were the tents purchased without any Scout input, but a bunch of other supplies as well. Long story short, troop spent over $2500 on tents, tables, and cooking utensils (not pots and pans but spatulas, tongs, etc). Now the adults are looking into buying lanterns, potsa and pans, etc. for the Scouts. As the ASM who is leading this charge told me I need to butt out of this, so I am. Especially since everything I say is being ignored.

 I had a chat with the SPL about how he needs to better plan AND let the adults know what is going on. He was blindsided by the tents and the fact that the adults took over his meeting plans: the had the ASM's son go over the new gear.

My two sons were ticked off. Not only were the Scouts not consulted about the purchase, but the tent pegs were collected from the tents, and they need to continue using the 10 penny nails from the troop supply. Oldest is going to suggest to his patrol that they buy their own tent pegs for their tents, and not have to rely on the troop. I think youngest plans on using his hammock's pegs when he needs to stay in a tent.

Anyway, they started getting very negative, which I can understand. But as the wife told me when i talked to her about all this stuff, I need to look at whom I am responsible for (my sons), and focus on what I can do to help them. So I told them they have 3 choices: transfer to another troop, run for office and try and change things from the inside, or just let it slide off their backs, do what they know they need to do and not worry about anyone else. Oldest told me he doesn't ever plan to run for SPL ever again because it is a waste of time; adults do what they want anyway. Thankfully he has POR time for Eagle now, and he will continue to do appointed PORs.

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8 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Anyway, they started getting very negative, which I can understand. But as the wife told me when i talked to her about all this stuff, I need to look at whom I am responsible for (my sons), and focus on what I can do to help them. So I told them they have 3 choices: transfer to another troop, run for office and try and change things from the inside, or just let it slide off their backs, do what they know they need to do and not worry about anyone else. Oldest told me he doesn't ever plan to run for SPL ever again because it is a waste of time; adults do what they want anyway. Thankfully he has POR time for Eagle now, and he will continue to do appointed PORs.

I can't recall if you said the SM was complicit in this or if he just didn't care that he (and his youth leaders) kept getting mowed over by this ASM. But as a former SM I would want to know this situation AND how my youth leaders felt. It sounds like these adults are not likely to step aside and let the boys lead, so taking this head-on as a youth leader is tilting at a windmill IMHO. Looking for a new troop is totally up to the individual because only they will know their mind.

If my son were in this situation, I would encourage him (and his friends who feel the same way) to have a heart-to-heart with the SM and really lay out their issues. I would advise them to link their grievances to the Aims and Methods of Scouting and the BSA Mission Statement. It may not change any minds and it may cause waves, but they will have the satisfaction of petitioning their unit leader with their grievances and learn a lesson on standing up for themselves.

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SM was complicit.

 

Funny thing is that this weekend he took all the older Scouts and had a chat with them with the ASMs present. The oldest Scout present had to be forced to talk, and even then he didn't say much. That was Gunship's son. Next oldest Scout said they needed help to learn how to lead. Gut feeling is that he doesn't feel that way, he's expressed otherwise to me in the past, and just said what he thought the adults wanted to hear. The three 14-15 year old Scouts said their mind, talked about issues, and one commented specifically he doesn't want the adults in the meetings telling them what to do and taking over. Of course the verdict is that the Scout need help and the adults are correct in intervening.

 

But here is the thing, there are NO PLC meetings. In the past 2 years, I can count on one hand how many occurred. The Scouts are not being counseled on the side, instead they are being interupted and adults taking over. There is so much stuff not being done, and when things are attempted there is resistance from the adults on it. Yet now the adults want lesson plans, Scouts teaching adults prior to meetings, etc.

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2 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

SM was complicit.

[snip]

But here is the thing, there are NO PLC meetings. In the past 2 years, I can count on one hand how many occurred. The Scouts are not being counseled on the side, instead they are being interrupted and adults taking over. There is so much stuff not being done, and when things are attempted there is resistance from the adults on it. Yet now the adults want lesson plans, Scouts teaching adults prior to meetings, etc.

Very sorry to hear that.

I amend my previous statement: I would advise my guys to leave for another troop. This one is clearly adult-led and has not plans on changing in the near term. I'd want my boys to be able to learn, fail and succeed. Sounds like you want that for your kids and everyone else. Sorry your good efforts are falling on deaf ears.

The boys will appreciate your efforts as they get older.

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