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14 hours ago, Col. Flagg said:

I suspect the increase "skin in the game" will go something like this:

  • Scouting has been playing up the "family Scouting" angle.
  • Units that have a more traditional Scouting program will feel pressure to have more "inclusive" programs and events. Simply said, less backpacking, more plop camping.
  • Parents may treat troop committee meetings more like pack committee meetings, where they (mistakenly) think that the committee drives what the boys (troop) do.
  • The parents will push their kids to have their (family Scouting) voice heard, or will volunteer as leaders and attempt to take over boy-led programs and activities.

While I could see this happening, it is already happening when some parents join, so not a new issue. Will it increase? Who knows. As @Eagledad said, some parents think the amount of clout they have is related to the number of kids they have in the program, or how many WB beads they have, or how long they've been a volunteer.

I actually think what will happen will be the drop-n-dash, leaving their sons (and now, daughters) at the new BSA one-stop-shop for youth activities. What impact THAT has on an outdoor program is anyone's guess.

I think that is what is happening in our Troop now; thank you for articulating that.

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16 hours ago, Eagledad said:

So you are basing your whole opinion on your personal approach to your sons program. I have dozens of parent discussions stories where I, as the SM, had to draw a line in sand to enforce the direction of the program as long as I was the SM. I have seen parents join the committee because they assumed it give them more stature to push change over the SM.

Yes, as my anecdotal experience is just as relevant as your anecdotal experience. The only thing either of us can do is speak from experience and as I specifically stated, "I must be missing something.." as I don't share the same experience.

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2 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

 What are some ways of doing this? Folks in my troop are out of ideas. We've had 3 parent meetings and it's been in one ear out the other. We've had individual sessions with offending parents, and they keep on doing what they want. We had Scouts walk away from their interference, and let the parents do dishes, cooking, etc.

 

If you've tried those things, then you are facing the reality that the parents understand, and do not care. I'm not sure there is a solution to that. 

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16 hours ago, Col. Flagg said:

Scouting has been playing up the "family Scouting" angle.

Perhaps this is where I am not following. For the vast majority of scout families (my assumption), the parents are not actively involved in following all the higher level national drama. My guess is that the vast majority have no awareness of "family camping" or how the term has been injected into scouting. If not for this forum (and I visit scoutingmagazine.org, my local council website, scouting.org, read both magazines, and am on a few email lists), I would have no awareness of any assumption of changes based on the term.

My hypothesis is that the vast majority of scouting parents, either new or existing, also have no awareness of "family camping" or how the term may be misapplied resulting in a corruption of BSA and the Patrol Method.

For Troops that already have a helicopter parent problem, that problem very likely predates the use of "family camping." In other words, those Troops have a problem with that program that doesn't having anything to do with this relatively brand new term that has yet to really have any implementation.

For Troops that don't have a problem with helicopter parents, I see no reason why this rather ambiguous term should result in the destruction of the core fundamentals of how the programs works.

 

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2 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

What are some ways of doing this? Folks in my troop are out of ideas. We've had 3 parent meetings and it's been in one ear out the other. We've had individual sessions with offending parents, and they keep on doing what they want. We had Scouts walk away from their interference, and let the parents do dishes, cooking, etc.

Just spit-balling here but is it possible to simply prohibit non-registered and non-trained parents from attending events?

Perhaps they need to learn about the process from a more official capacity and if they are unwilling to meet the troop requirements for attending campouts, then they will either quit attending or quit all together.

I personally think if I saw a parent take over washing dishes from a scout, I would be compelled to pull that parent aside and correct their behavior right there on the spot. The conversation would be private but the action would be public such that everyone, both scouts and other parents, would get the point of what I was doing.

Some parents are no more mature than their scouts and unfortunately must be treated the same way at times. Tough love em. If they refuse, I guess they can be invited to find another Troop.

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18 hours ago, Col. Flagg said:

That's just it, I don't think the families want to join. Most parents now a days want to drop their kids off at one spot and pick them up later. This is where I think Scouting is making a huge mistake. For every one family that joins en masse, I think you will get 4-5 that just sign all their kids up and drop them off like it's day care.

We already see enough of that now. Parents park their kids at Cubs or Boy Scouts and drive off, only to come back (late) to the meeting to pick them up.

 

I am hearing lots of concern from CMs that parents will think BSA stands for “baby sitters anonymous” and Mom and dad will drop off all the kids and go on date night. It already happens to some extent but the concern is it will get much worse and all the kids will get dumped. Then pack and den meetings will be disasters, nobody enjoys it, and boys, girls and adult leaders will quit.

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16 hours ago, Col. Flagg said:

In this instance it may be because the incoming "families" want more activities that everyone can do. Ever see an 11 year old with a 35lb pack go on a 20 miler? Me neither.

Or what about if they want to go caving? Only the older Scouts can go. Opps, nope, now you can't do that because the younger Scouts are left out. Same with water treks above Class III, certain climbing activities and a few other things.

Does this already happen in some units? Sure. But I believe the "family camping" will precipitate this even more. There will be pressure to have events and activities the whole family can do. That will reduce the list of potential activities even more. Just check out the age appropriate matrix BSA puts out.

I might be wrong about this, but the stuff I've read about Family Scouting has it capped at 10 years of age. Unless that changed since the BSA release their literature on the subject. I was under the impression that the family program was not for the older programs. So if a parent is showing up with their 15-year-old asking for Family Scouting, I'd just refer them to the various documents the BSA has put out outlining what the Family Scouting program actually is. 

Hypothetically, even if Family Scouting extends to the trop level, we don't know that incoming "families" (why the quotes?) will want all-ages activities exclusively, any more-so than previous families did. And as long as leaders set expectations for parents the same as they do now for families with two or more boys in a troop, with the undertanding that the older boys may do things the younger boys can't, then it shouldn't be any worse of a problem than it already is. 

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3 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

 

IMHO that's part of the problem. We went from a SM in failing health to an SM whose job keeps him on call a lot. He doesn't have the time to commit. The troop is actually being run by an ASM with a history of having siblings or grandkids camp with the troop in order to have enough adult go.

 

Is there any possibility that the SM can be replaced? That can be troublesome enough, and the new SM instituting a culture change would have a constant uphill battle, so recruiting a new SM would be challenging too.

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30 minutes ago, EmberMike said:

I might be wrong about this, but the stuff I've read about Family Scouting has it capped at 10 years of age. Unless that changed since the BSA release their literature on the subject. I was under the impression that the family program was not for the older programs. So if a parent is showing up with their 15-year-old asking for Family Scouting, I'd just refer them to the various documents the BSA has put out outlining what the Family Scouting program actually is. 

Hypothetically, even if Family Scouting extends to the trop level, we don't know that incoming "families" (why the quotes?) will want all-ages activities exclusively, any more-so than previous families did. And as long as leaders set expectations for parents the same as they do now for families with two or more boys in a troop, with the undertanding that the older boys may do things the younger boys can't, then it shouldn't be any worse of a problem than it already is. 

Do you have links for those documents? I’ve been trying to read up on this and all I see is the guide to safe scouting that says sibling participation is restricted to activities that scouts of the same age are allowed to do. 

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44 minutes ago, Hawkwin said:

Yes, as my anecdotal experience is just as relevant as your anecdotal experience. The only thing either of us can do is speak from experience and as I specifically stated, "I must be missing something.." as I don't share the same experience.

Yes,  I knew when I wrote that post that it would come off as hypocritical. But my experiences and observations occurred with many different parents over many years and was pretty consistent. And as I said, the issues I'm now learning with helicopter parents only reinforce my observations.

I not only believe the troop program is about to change a lot, I believe the change will happen quickly. I base that partially from my experience observing the program after the BSA policy change to register female troop leaders. It takes around five years for major policy changes to form trends as a result of the change, and the BSA found itself dealing with trends around five years after the policy change. The new wave of training in 2000 was part of there reaction to the tends. So I believe we will see new trends as a result of these new membership policies fairly quickly. I'm already seeing it here on the forum.

Barry

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1 hour ago, Jameson76 said:

As the captain on the Titanic said...the ship is sinking, time to go

Ah so dark. Play on band play on. With Scout Sunday around the corner perhaps "Nearer My God to Thee".

And I thought the captain stayed.

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7 minutes ago, Tampa Turtle said:

Ah so dark. Play on band play on. With Scout Sunday around the corner perhaps "Nearer My God to Thee".

And I thought the captain stayed.

Captain Smith indeed did go down with the ship. 

Also:

 

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1 hour ago, EmberMike said:

I might be wrong about this, but the stuff I've read about Family Scouting has it capped at 10 years of age. Unless that changed since the BSA release their literature on the subject. I was under the impression that the family program was not for the older programs. So if a parent is showing up with their 15-year-old asking for Family Scouting, I'd just refer them to the various documents the BSA has put out outlining what the Family Scouting program actually is. 

Hypothetically, even if Family Scouting extends to the trop level, we don't know that incoming "families" (why the quotes?) will want all-ages activities exclusively, any more-so than previous families did. And as long as leaders set expectations for parents the same as they do now for families with two or more boys in a troop, with the undertanding that the older boys may do things the younger boys can't, then it shouldn't be any worse of a problem than it already is. 

The only reference to "family camping" I see is in the GTSS  on page 22. It does not give much detail on how that type of event is managed. It mentions that Cubs, Boy Scouts and Venturing can do this "family camping" but does not detail what is/isn't allowed. I'd be interested in which documents you keep referring to. Other than the GTSS -- which does nothing to really define family camping -- what other documents are you referencing?

32 minutes ago, EmberMike said:

I must be missing it. I don't see anywhere on that page, or in any of the links, where they talk about capping the participation age at 10. The only official reference I see is in the GTSS  on page 23 where they note that any Pack event where non-member siblings participate that the event must be "structured accordingly" to accommodate them. I can only assume that this means that the official age guidelines for Scouting apply since they offer no other citation to follow.

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