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2 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

 What are some ways of doing this? Folks in my troop are out of ideas. We've had 3 parent meetings and it's been in one ear out the other. We've had individual sessions with offending parents, and they keep on doing what they want. We had Scouts walk away from their interference, and let the parents do dishes, cooking, etc.

 

If you've tried those things, then you are facing the reality that the parents understand, and do not care. I'm not sure there is a solution to that. 

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16 hours ago, Col. Flagg said:

Scouting has been playing up the "family Scouting" angle.

Perhaps this is where I am not following. For the vast majority of scout families (my assumption), the parents are not actively involved in following all the higher level national drama. My guess is that the vast majority have no awareness of "family camping" or how the term has been injected into scouting. If not for this forum (and I visit scoutingmagazine.org, my local council website, scouting.org, read both magazines, and am on a few email lists), I would have no awareness of any assumption of changes based on the term.

My hypothesis is that the vast majority of scouting parents, either new or existing, also have no awareness of "family camping" or how the term may be misapplied resulting in a corruption of BSA and the Patrol Method.

For Troops that already have a helicopter parent problem, that problem very likely predates the use of "family camping." In other words, those Troops have a problem with that program that doesn't having anything to do with this relatively brand new term that has yet to really have any implementation.

For Troops that don't have a problem with helicopter parents, I see no reason why this rather ambiguous term should result in the destruction of the core fundamentals of how the programs works.

 

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2 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

What are some ways of doing this? Folks in my troop are out of ideas. We've had 3 parent meetings and it's been in one ear out the other. We've had individual sessions with offending parents, and they keep on doing what they want. We had Scouts walk away from their interference, and let the parents do dishes, cooking, etc.

Just spit-balling here but is it possible to simply prohibit non-registered and non-trained parents from attending events?

Perhaps they need to learn about the process from a more official capacity and if they are unwilling to meet the troop requirements for attending campouts, then they will either quit attending or quit all together.

I personally think if I saw a parent take over washing dishes from a scout, I would be compelled to pull that parent aside and correct their behavior right there on the spot. The conversation would be private but the action would be public such that everyone, both scouts and other parents, would get the point of what I was doing.

Some parents are no more mature than their scouts and unfortunately must be treated the same way at times. Tough love em. If they refuse, I guess they can be invited to find another Troop.

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18 hours ago, Col. Flagg said:

That's just it, I don't think the families want to join. Most parents now a days want to drop their kids off at one spot and pick them up later. This is where I think Scouting is making a huge mistake. For every one family that joins en masse, I think you will get 4-5 that just sign all their kids up and drop them off like it's day care.

We already see enough of that now. Parents park their kids at Cubs or Boy Scouts and drive off, only to come back (late) to the meeting to pick them up.

 

I am hearing lots of concern from CMs that parents will think BSA stands for “baby sitters anonymous” and Mom and dad will drop off all the kids and go on date night. It already happens to some extent but the concern is it will get much worse and all the kids will get dumped. Then pack and den meetings will be disasters, nobody enjoys it, and boys, girls and adult leaders will quit.

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16 hours ago, Col. Flagg said:

In this instance it may be because the incoming "families" want more activities that everyone can do. Ever see an 11 year old with a 35lb pack go on a 20 miler? Me neither.

Or what about if they want to go caving? Only the older Scouts can go. Opps, nope, now you can't do that because the younger Scouts are left out. Same with water treks above Class III, certain climbing activities and a few other things.

Does this already happen in some units? Sure. But I believe the "family camping" will precipitate this even more. There will be pressure to have events and activities the whole family can do. That will reduce the list of potential activities even more. Just check out the age appropriate matrix BSA puts out.

I might be wrong about this, but the stuff I've read about Family Scouting has it capped at 10 years of age. Unless that changed since the BSA release their literature on the subject. I was under the impression that the family program was not for the older programs. So if a parent is showing up with their 15-year-old asking for Family Scouting, I'd just refer them to the various documents the BSA has put out outlining what the Family Scouting program actually is. 

Hypothetically, even if Family Scouting extends to the trop level, we don't know that incoming "families" (why the quotes?) will want all-ages activities exclusively, any more-so than previous families did. And as long as leaders set expectations for parents the same as they do now for families with two or more boys in a troop, with the undertanding that the older boys may do things the younger boys can't, then it shouldn't be any worse of a problem than it already is. 

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3 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

 

IMHO that's part of the problem. We went from a SM in failing health to an SM whose job keeps him on call a lot. He doesn't have the time to commit. The troop is actually being run by an ASM with a history of having siblings or grandkids camp with the troop in order to have enough adult go.

 

Is there any possibility that the SM can be replaced? That can be troublesome enough, and the new SM instituting a culture change would have a constant uphill battle, so recruiting a new SM would be challenging too.

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30 minutes ago, EmberMike said:

I might be wrong about this, but the stuff I've read about Family Scouting has it capped at 10 years of age. Unless that changed since the BSA release their literature on the subject. I was under the impression that the family program was not for the older programs. So if a parent is showing up with their 15-year-old asking for Family Scouting, I'd just refer them to the various documents the BSA has put out outlining what the Family Scouting program actually is. 

Hypothetically, even if Family Scouting extends to the trop level, we don't know that incoming "families" (why the quotes?) will want all-ages activities exclusively, any more-so than previous families did. And as long as leaders set expectations for parents the same as they do now for families with two or more boys in a troop, with the undertanding that the older boys may do things the younger boys can't, then it shouldn't be any worse of a problem than it already is. 

Do you have links for those documents? I’ve been trying to read up on this and all I see is the guide to safe scouting that says sibling participation is restricted to activities that scouts of the same age are allowed to do. 

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44 minutes ago, Hawkwin said:

Yes, as my anecdotal experience is just as relevant as your anecdotal experience. The only thing either of us can do is speak from experience and as I specifically stated, "I must be missing something.." as I don't share the same experience.

Yes,  I knew when I wrote that post that it would come off as hypocritical. But my experiences and observations occurred with many different parents over many years and was pretty consistent. And as I said, the issues I'm now learning with helicopter parents only reinforce my observations.

I not only believe the troop program is about to change a lot, I believe the change will happen quickly. I base that partially from my experience observing the program after the BSA policy change to register female troop leaders. It takes around five years for major policy changes to form trends as a result of the change, and the BSA found itself dealing with trends around five years after the policy change. The new wave of training in 2000 was part of there reaction to the tends. So I believe we will see new trends as a result of these new membership policies fairly quickly. I'm already seeing it here on the forum.

Barry

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7 minutes ago, Tampa Turtle said:

Ah so dark. Play on band play on. With Scout Sunday around the corner perhaps "Nearer My God to Thee".

And I thought the captain stayed.

Captain Smith indeed did go down with the ship. 

Also:

 

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1 hour ago, EmberMike said:

I might be wrong about this, but the stuff I've read about Family Scouting has it capped at 10 years of age. Unless that changed since the BSA release their literature on the subject. I was under the impression that the family program was not for the older programs. So if a parent is showing up with their 15-year-old asking for Family Scouting, I'd just refer them to the various documents the BSA has put out outlining what the Family Scouting program actually is. 

Hypothetically, even if Family Scouting extends to the trop level, we don't know that incoming "families" (why the quotes?) will want all-ages activities exclusively, any more-so than previous families did. And as long as leaders set expectations for parents the same as they do now for families with two or more boys in a troop, with the undertanding that the older boys may do things the younger boys can't, then it shouldn't be any worse of a problem than it already is. 

The only reference to "family camping" I see is in the GTSS  on page 22. It does not give much detail on how that type of event is managed. It mentions that Cubs, Boy Scouts and Venturing can do this "family camping" but does not detail what is/isn't allowed. I'd be interested in which documents you keep referring to. Other than the GTSS -- which does nothing to really define family camping -- what other documents are you referencing?

32 minutes ago, EmberMike said:

I must be missing it. I don't see anywhere on that page, or in any of the links, where they talk about capping the participation age at 10. The only official reference I see is in the GTSS  on page 23 where they note that any Pack event where non-member siblings participate that the event must be "structured accordingly" to accommodate them. I can only assume that this means that the official age guidelines for Scouting apply since they offer no other citation to follow.

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1 hour ago, Hawkwin said:

For Troops that already have a helicopter parent problem, that problem very likely predates the use of "family camping." In other words, those Troops have a problem with that program that doesn't having anything to do with this relatively brand new term that has yet to really have any implementation.

For Troops that don't have a problem with helicopter parents, I see no reason why this rather ambiguous term should result in the destruction of the core fundamentals of how the programs works.

 

As I said, the problem of family camping is not new. The argument, however, is that the demand will increase because of BSA's over-emphasis on the subject. If you look at their whole marketing and use of the term, they keep talking about a one-stop shop, family-inclusive events and units. In fact, that concept is the basis for the whole girls-in-Boy Scouts issue; giving the modern "busy" parents a single place where they can drop off their kids. Check out the articles in Scouting and on the "Family Camping" page posted above.

So my argument would be that the demand for family-friendly activities will increase because the incoming parents -- presumably pulled in by all this family marketing hype -- will pull out the brochure and point to National saying, "See, says right here 'family-oriented'" and expect Boy Scout and Venturing units to offer that up. The savvy new parent will pull out the poorly worded GTSS and point to page 22-23 for back-up.

1 hour ago, an_old_DC said:

I am hearing lots of concern from CMs that parents will think BSA stands for “baby sitters anonymous” and Mom and dad will drop off all the kids and go on date night. It already happens to some extent but the concern is it will get much worse and all the kids will get dumped. Then pack and den meetings will be disasters, nobody enjoys it, and boys, girls and adult leaders will quit.

We all be that now, and I agree it will likely increase. The irony I find is that the "busy mom" or "busy dad" will drop their kids off at a Cub meeting, then go hang out at Starbucks and read a book or play Candy Crush until the meeting is over. Why? They need their "down time" while you and I keep their kids entertained for an hour or so.

Is that the majority of people? No. But in the last 15 years of Scouting I haven't seen a stampede of people to volunteer either. Usually it takes recruiting. Usually they are older parents or even grand parents. It is rare to see the late 20 or 30 year old who steps up.

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Yep - I also don't see anything in there about throwing away Scout led or the patrol method.  I don't see anything about the end to backpacking or making Boy Scouts a family camping club.

The FAQ has:

Q. Will there be new curriculum for girl participants? Will you change the program to accommodate girls?

No. Our existing programs are relevant for young men and women. After all, the values of Scouting as outlined in the Scout Law – trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, obedient, cheerful, thrifty, brave, clean and reverent – are relevant and important values for both young men and women.

 

 

"family scouting" is just another phrase for "adding girls".  It's a way of saying that all the kids in the family can participate, not just the sons.  It's a way to say that all parents can volunteer because all their kids can benefit.  It's not a way to say that Boy Scouts is now a family camping club.

Edited by ParkMan
fixed formatting

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13 hours ago, Chadamus said:

Yes.

His parents? Doubtful.

Point being they are few and far between. Mostly because the average 11 year old does not have the strength to carry a pack with 35lbs, let alone carry it for 20 miles.

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