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All I'm saying is that National should think about and study it.  Maybe ask some Native American leaders whether they feel "honored" by OA ceremonies.  You don't speak for them and neither do I.  Maybe they think it's a great idea.  I don't know.

As for Native Americans and African Americans, I did not know there was a contest going on over who was deprived of their rights the longest.  But if you're keeping score, you might want to consider that while citizenship was extended to African Americans in 1868, in large portions of the country they were not permitted to actually exercise most of the rights of citizenship until almost 100 years later.  Which of course, does not make the injustices done to the Native Americans any more or less compelling.  They stand on their own.

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2 minutes ago, NJCubScouter said:

All I'm saying is that National should think about and study it.  Maybe ask some Native American leaders whether they feel "honored" by OA ceremonies.  You don't speak for them and neither do I.  Maybe they think it's a great idea.  I don't know.

As for Native Americans and African Americans, I did not know there was a contest going on over who was deprived of their rights the longest.  But if you're keeping score, you might want to consider that while citizenship was extended to African Americans in 1868, in large portions of the country they were not permitted to actually exercise most of the rights of citizenship until almost 100 years later.  Which of course, does not make the injustices done to the Native Americans any more or less compelling.  They stand on their own.

We had an "offensive"  name to our Lodge a few years back.  We checked with the local tribal councils and they didn't have a problem with it.  National made us change it anyway.  Same for one of our local high school mascots.  The vast majority of students were of Indian descent and the tribal council petitioned the state to keep the name, the state denied it.

I wasn't "keeping score", I was reiterating history.  Yes, the Indians had the right to vote just like the Blacks, but it wasn't until the 1960's that BOTH groups were assimilated with the Equal Rights Act.  Yes, I remember IN MY LIFETIME the problems the Black were having, but coming from an area near an Indian reservation, I heard the problem coming from that arena as well.

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2 hours ago, NJCubScouter said:

Maybe this would be a convenient occasion to consider leaving the Native American ceremonies and nomenclature to the people who invented them, and come up with something of our own.  We might even consider reducing the ceremonial aspect, regardless of what "theme" is chosen.  Full disclosure, I have not been involved with the OA other than doing the ordeal when I was a Scout.  I never really participated after that.  I think I've seen it called "sash and dash" in this forum.  But that's my opinion, anyway.

This has been on my mind.  Maybe a well-trained, trusted elite ranger scouting group that can go on outings , service activities without adults.

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2 hours ago, Stosh said:

The Indian influence once held a positive allure in our culture.  It was considered a good thing to be doing, even honorable in many aspects to be associated with the Indian culture.  It was a good thing to be white with a "Pocahontas" background.  But as the PC world evolved into what it is today, it has become demonized and reserved only for those who have been segregated out to be able to continue honoring it.  In many unspoken respects, the Indian culture belongs back on the reservation.  It is not a shared culture, it belongs only to those of that descent.   We play the extremes today.  Everyone has to be one way or the other otherwise we can't play the "us" and "them" game.  Even our former president played the game.  No, he was not the first black president, he was the first mulatto president.  He was as much white as he was black.  

In 1924, Congress finally started granting citizenship to Indians.  In 1936 they finally got the right to vote.  This stands in contrast to Blacks getting citizenship in 1868.  All these people were born in the US, but "us" and "them" retained a strong foot hold on our culture.

When BSA first started out, the Indian culture was truly a sub-culture in America.  Eventually they became citizens and eventually held the right to vote.  The struggle is over and they can have their culture back and no one else can share it.  That's a long, cruel history that we have tried to honor throughout the years of Scouting.

I'm afraid in order to toe-the-line with PC, we will need to dump the OA completely as we know it.  It's unfortunate.

 

So why exactly do we need to " toe-the-line with PC" ?

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One of the challenges is that a lot of folks do not know how the OA actually helped the 500+ different Native American cultures in North America. I know Arrowman, who have done research for local, state recognized to help get them federal recognition. I know an Arrowmen who have done research to help reintroduce lost arts. And I can go on and on.

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1 hour ago, Oldscout448 said:

So why exactly do we need to " toe-the-line with PC" ?

Because if you don't, you are immediately thrown into the "them" camp.  :)

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4 hours ago, Oldscout448 said:

So why exactly do we need to " toe-the-line with PC" ?

You will be labeled with the en-vogue buzzword.

Edited by Scoutmaster Teddy

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5 hours ago, Oldscout448 said:

So why exactly do we need to " toe-the-line with PC" ?

I read that and the “our own” comment and wondered the same thing. What does our mean? We’re a melting pot or should be. We going to dress as fast food workers and paint the inductees with whataburger sauce? Can’t use Viking stuff because that’s appropriation too. So we have to pick something so generic it doesn’t insult or appropriate anything from anyone. Good luck. 

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:)  I guess that leaves me with being able to tell Sven and Ole jokes.  Bummer, now my Polish buddies won't even talk to me anymore.

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Our OA Lodge consults with the Seminole tribe and we try to make sure (some) of the clothes and dances are authentic. We often have representatives at ceremonies. But I have seen other lodges not treat Native American culture respectfully and I think eventually the whole thing will go away. But I have learned some fascinating things in OA (beadwork, how authentic Seminole shirts were made and how to make them) that was an enriching experience that I never would have know and I went to school with kids from the nearby reservation. 

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It really pays off to have a close contact with the tribes.  Our tribe up here is the Winnebago (Ho-Chunk) and they have been very gracious to our boys.  Again a nearby reservation really makes a difference in one's outlook on the Indian culture.  Even the Indian Ceremonial Program at the Wisconsin Dells (tourist trap) has gone away.  It was once the main draw to the region.  It's been replaced with amusement parks and water parks.  It's really a shame to see it gone.

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The lodge I grew up in has had mixed relations with the local tribe, despite having members in the lodge. At one time, we had excellent relations, then a group of yahoos got involved int he lodge. I do not know the full story, but the local tribe asked us to disband the dance team, which we did. While the yahoos did their own thing still, eventually AIA died. Then we got some youth who were really interested in AIA. They reestablished the relationship, helps when one of your fellow Arrowman is kin to the principle chief :) , and  we got it back up and running with their blessing. And we have helped each other out when I was down there.

Current lodge has an extremely amiable relationship with local tribes. I discovered that one of the local drums was formed by members of the lodge at the primary Scout camp years ago. Several of our AIA folks are on that drum, and one or two others.  One of our Arrowman was head male dancer at one of the local powwows.

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