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UncleP

Push for Coed Scouting

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Monetary/professional benefits for Eagle earners (such as the up-step in pay in the military) should be rescinded, unless the award can also be earned by girls, or if a complimentary award (such as the GSUSA Gold Award, and/or whatever the top Venturing award is) is also recognized. 

Why do I think this is bad....

 

Oh yah,

 

First of all, his name is Syndrome. And secondly, yes, he is exactly whom I want to be quoting, actually, because he reveals that this modern idea, that everybody should get the same thing, that "girls should be boy scouts too," that nobody should be allowed to exclude - it's fundamentally a BAD IDEA. It's the VILLAIN who wants everybody to get the same privileges whether they earn them or not, the VILLAIN who wants to level the playing field to the point that there's no point in playing, the VILLAIN who wants to ensure that nobody gets a chance to excel, because that would be "unfair" or "elitist" or "unequal." The very idea that merit has not place in society is fundamentally problematic, if not blatantly wrong. 

 

So yeah - Syndrome is exactly the one I want to quote, because his idea is, at its core, a rotten one. That is just my point, and I am glad you asked me to clarify, although it would seem you were hoping I would back up on what I said. In the which case I must disappoint you.  ;)

I call it equality through mediocrity. But Latin Scot said it much more eloquently.

 

Barry

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Monetary/professional benefits for Eagle earners (such as the up-step in pay in the military) should be rescinded, unless the award can also be earned by girls, or if a complimentary award (such as the GSUSA Gold Award, and/or whatever the top Venturing award is) is also recognized. 

 

Already done, at least as far as the military is concerned.  Eagle and GUSUA Gold will get you the same step-up when enlisting in the U.S. military, see: https://www.thebalance.com/advanced-paygrade-rank-enlistment-programs-3344738  This is a non-official site, but it is consistent with what I have seen on official U.S. military sites.  The highest awards in Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts are treated equally in this context.

Edited by NJCubScouter

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Co-ed does cut out the very heart of the program though, which is to help BOYS become better MEN. Do we have to put girls into this kind of a program?

Edited by The Latin Scot

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Co-ed does cut out the very heart of the program though, which is to help BOYS become better MEN. Do we have to put girls into this kind of a program?

 

With that kind of argument, I almost feel myself start to lean more toward making packs and troops co-ed.  I'm not there yet, though.

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Co-ed does cut out the very heart of the program though, which is to help BOYS become better MEN. Do we have to put girls into this kind of a program?

 

 

I've been hearing the "boys become men" thing more often lately. Where is that coming from? Is that documented anywhere? 

 

I was under the impression that the aims of scouting were (and still are) character development, citizenship training, and personal fitness. 

 

And none of those things are exclusive to one gender. 

Edited by EmberMike

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I've been hearing the "boys become men" thing more often lately. Where is that coming from? Is that documented anywhere? 

 

I was under the impression that the aims of scouting were (and still are) character development, citizenship training, and personal fitness. That's what our books say. 

 

And none of those things are exclusive to one gender. 

 

If that be the case, why did Lady Powell start the Girl Guides.... ?

Edited by Stosh

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If that be the case, why did Lady Powell start the Girl Guides.... ?

 

 

Because girls weren't allowed in the boy scouts and girls wanted the same opportunity as boys to do the same activities and learn the same things. Not unlike today where girls in the US are still looking for such a program. 

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I've been hearing the "boys become men" thing more often lately. Where is that coming from? Is that documented anywhere? 

 

I was under the impression that the aims of scouting were (and still are) character development, citizenship training, and personal fitness. 

 

And none of those things are exclusive to one gender. 

Good question. The Aims are the down in the trenches unit goals the adults use to help the scouts toward the BSA Mission. The BSA Mission is preparing young people to make ethical and moral choices over their lifetime by instilling in them the values of the Scout Oath and Law. 

 

And sure, the Mission is not specific to a gender, but Mission goals has it's most influence toward growth when the genders are separated. At least at the troop age where using the Eight Methods is specified for the troop program.

 

We talk about "boys becoming men" because this is after all the Boy Scouts. But I expect Girl Scout leaders talk about "girls becoming women".

 

Barry

Edited by Eagledad

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Why does everyone assume that coed scouts means every unit, at every level, will be coed? Would an all girls scout troop using the BSA model work? Now let's say that there is an all boys troop and an all girls troop that shares the same committee. Different SMs. Different calendars. Shared gear. Shared committee. Shared CO. The parents bring all the kids to the same place so family scheduling just got easier. If these units are really following the patrol method, when they do go to the same place to go camping and are 100 yards apart, would it be a problem? The girls can sing songs around their campfire while the boys beat the tar out of each other around their campfire.

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I've been hearing the "boys become men" thing more often lately. Where is that coming from? Is that documented anywhere? 

 

I was under the impression that the aims of scouting were (and still are) character development, citizenship training, and personal fitness. 

 

And none of those things are exclusive to one gender. 

 

Try Scouting for Boys or Aids to Scoutmastership by Baden-Powell. He talks specifically about boys becoming men through the adventures in scouts. He also points out a few times that girls have their own organization which teach the same principles of scouting, albeit geared toward girls. And he wasn't being sexist or demeaning if you read what he meant about those differences.

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Why does everyone assume that coed scouts means every unit, at every level, will be coed? 

 

 

Much like the fears people have about gay members overrunning units and transgender kids lined up outside a CO's doors, the idea that girls will immediately inundate the BSA with membership forms is unfounded and blown way out of proportion. I think we'd see a lot of girls joining, but but certainly not at every unit and level. 

 

 

Would an all girls scout troop using the BSA model work?

 

I think so. Off the top of my head I can't think of any aspect of the program that would be prohibitive to girls. 

 

...The girls can sing songs around their campfire while the boys beat the tar out of each other around their campfire.

 

You know your choice of gender roles here is kind of funny, right? This is the BSA, singing songs around the campfire is a very "boy" thing to do.  :laugh:

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Funny? This is based on experience. The girls were singing Christmas songs and the boys were wrestling.

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Try Scouting for Boys or Aids to Scoutmastership by Baden-Powell. He talks specifically about boys becoming men through the adventures in scouts. He also points out a few times that girls have their own organization which teach the same principles of scouting, albeit geared toward girls. And he wasn't being sexist or demeaning if you read what he meant about those differences.

 

 

I've read those and other BP writings. He wrote some of that stuff over a century ago. And I know it's the basis for everything we do but I've read those books as fun looks back at how things started. There's a lot of stuff in those books that we don't do at all today.

 

Our methods have changed over the decades and one constant I've found in numerous modern takes on Scouting is character development. That's the modern standard for the goals and aims of the program above all else. 

 

I have a lot of respect for what BP thought about youth growing and becoming men, but I don't see what place that has in deciding policy today in a program that has long since embraced a much broader sense of purpose. And also is partially co-ed already. Using phrasing like "boys becoming men" isn't in the spirit of Scouting today when we've got Venturing and now the co-ed STEM program. 

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Funny? This is based on experience. The girls were singing Christmas songs and the boys were wrestling.

 

In the numerous campfire experiences I've had with different packs, troops and across different districts, a lot of groups do songs around the campfire. Many units sing a lot of the same ones, too. 

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