Time to remove Merit Badge requirements for rank?

[qwazse 4344]

Working on Cit. World, son #2 actually took the time to interview a friend who was a scout in another country. It wasn't a conversation he would have had otherwise. I'm not against a little bookwork in a MB. Why? Because one of the essential steps in learning a skill (as you'd all know if you ignore BSA's EDGE method) is referencing. But I agree that councillors who are passionate about their topic trump a parent who is putting his/her hat in the ring because they are more passionate about their boys' convenience.

[Eagle94-A1 2687]

 

It's interesting that you bring up this point. Despite the studies that have been done, suggesting that if a Scout earns 1st Class in the first year he'll stay longer in a given Troop, I don't like the emphasis on potentially rushing a young man to 1st Class.

 

I'm conflicted, too, because I've been asked to present "1st Year Scout Skills" at a winter training gathering. This a broad topic for a 60-minute "class", no doubt. I don't plan to advocated for FCFY. Rather, I intend to discuss the Methods of Scouting and how advancement and the Patrol System are linked. I might even mention that merit badges can wait until after 1st Class...

 

I was a Scout when "Operation First Class" came out in 1989. I saw the stats then (and the stats were based on advancement with time requirements between T-2-1), and made this comment then and still do now: the stats do not tell you anything about the troop's program; if you are in a "hiking and camping troop," you have the opportunity for advancement. (all caps, underlining, etc are emphasis and not shouting). I've seen troops that do not focus on FCFY, and they are the ones that are the most active.

 

I know of a troop that is VERY advancement oriented, lots of Scouts in it are Star and above in less than 2 years. BUT they have had 2 new scouts quit, and 2 new scouts transfer within 12 months of joining. Reason for this is the lack of outdoor program. Their meetings are MB classes and playing basketball in the gym. Their version of the "Patrol Method" is the SM appointing leadership positions, including PLs and SPL, in order for everyone to have a chance in a leadership role and avoid "cliques" (SM's word, not mine). When they camp, it's family camping or MB weekends. But acording to the JTE they are a "Bronze" unit.

 

I know of another troop that advancement is not the focus. In fact they have guys in the troop 3 years now that are still Tenderfoot. Why? They don't care about advancement, and are a little afraid of the SM as "his bite IS worse than his bark" All they want to do is have fun. Now all of a sudden, they are focused on getting First Class, but I think winning the Philmont Lottery has now motivated them. Funny thing about this troop is this, after seeing their Scouts in action working on first aid, I'd take them doing first aid on me over the Scouts in the first troop. Their standard is "One and Done," whereas the second troop goes over first aid every year because they beleive it is that important.

 

As for Merit Badges and the T-2-1 ranks, I'm an old fogey and believe that First Aid Merit Badge should be required for First Class rank like it was in the 1979-89 timeframe. I vividly remember just Crossing over to Boy Scouts, and encountering a first aid situation that I was put in charge of because the adult who first responded knew I was a Scout and expected me to know first aid that he didn't know. THANKFULLY it was something covered in Readyman and I was able to help.

 

I am also a BIG proponent of getting either getting Swimming MB or having Instructional Swim while in the T-2-1 ranks.

 

Ok done ranting. Got get the epi pen trainers that one of the Scouts will be using, and the mannaquins and AED trainers that I need to use fror Monday's First Aid training.

 

[Stosh 3452]

If First Aid and Swimming are important and there are some of those requirements in the T-FC requirements, why not just incorporate all of the FA and Swimming MB's into the requirements? Same for all the required MB's? The only reason one would not go along with that is because the scout couldn't reach FC in 12-18 months. Not that the watered down T-FC program is all that great anyway. And then one will realize that the importance of the Eagle rank is nothing more than a few elective MB's, a few service project hours and a project, and then sitting on a POR patch for 16 weeks. The only thing that the Star, Life and Eagle rank do is turn a First Class scout into a second class scout.

 

Stosh

[Twocubdad 665]

When OneCubSon was a Web2, we went camping with the two troops where he had friends. On one of the campouts, the SM pulled all the parents aside for a talk about the troop's philosophy. His main point was that any boy who stayed with the troop three or four years was basically guaranteed Eagle. I was appalled. You get service stars for hanging out for a few years. Eagle should require extra effort, ambition and perseverance, right? I gritted my teeth trying not to influence my son's selection of troops, and was GREATLY relieved when he chose the other troop.

 

Unfortunately, IMHO, (and having watched their program for a decade or more) that troop is more in keeping with the current direction of the BSA advancement program. I have posted many times about my concerns with the current direction of the advancement program. I have no evidence or first-hand knowledge of this, but it is my opinion that the marketing/branding MBAs in Irving decided Eagle Scout is THE BSA brand (which to most people in the general public, it probably is). Their mission is to defang the curmudgeonly old Scoutmasters who know nothing about running a highly-profitable non-profit organization and get in the way of them maximizing the brand. Or something like that.

 

Consequently, we now have this high-speed, low-drag advancement program where any 12-year-old whose parents put their shoulders to the grindstone can make Eagle. Throw in a troop program committed to conflicting as little as possible with lacrosse and band, a compliant, Kool-aide drinking Scoutmaster and a couple years of merit-badge-driven summer camps and Johnny has a pretty red white and blue medal he doesn't know how he earned and a plum resume entry. I'll not bore you with examples from the Guide to Advancement which support this theory. Most of you have heard it from me many times before.

 

| rant off |

 

So back to the OP -- As NJ points out, BSA differed from B-P's concept of merit badges almost from the beginning of the program. They are an iconic part of the program and I don't think you're going to get rid of them -- nor do I think we should. Just the opposite, national seems to be adding MBs at a pretty good clip.

 

I'll not take the time to look up the reference, but most BSA publications describe Scout advancement as a progressive series of surmountable obstacles, or something close to that. Horse hockey. My greatest complaint with the advancement program is it is not at all progressive. There is no difference in degree of difficulty between the T-2-1 ranks. How many troops cover all T-2-1 first aid requirements all at the same time? (And for that matter, how many ignore the First Aid MB requirement to complete the T-2-1 first aid requirement before starting the merit badge?) Is there really a significant degree of difficulty between a square knot and a bowline? There is not a single merit badge which cannot be completed by a brand-new, 11-year-old Scouts. In fact, policy dictates that any Scout, regardless of age rank or ability, be allowed to tackle any merit badge at any time. Granted, some, like Personal Management, "become" more difficult as Scouts grow older and their personal circumstances change -- a 10-y.o. with a $10/wk allowance vs. a 16-y.o. with a job and car payment. Consequently, many curmudgeons buck policy and encourage Scouts to hold off on similar badges until they are older and the MBs more meaningful.

 

I would like to see the program changed to become truly progressive; Make the merit badges required for Eagle more difficult than those for Star. This could be accomplished without a total disruption of the existing program. First, get rid of the baloney policy that Scouts be allowed to complete any MB at any time. Then organize merit badges the way college courses are with certain MBs designated as Star, Life or Eagle MBs -- the way college courses are designated 100, 200, 300 or 400-level courses. Life would require 10 MB, the six you earned for Star, plus four more "Life level" courses. Eagle would require the 10 MBs earned for Life, plus some number of "Eagle level" badges.

 

Understanding BSA's rolling update of MBs, the requirements for the Life- and Eagle-level MBs should eventually become more robust over time. If Cit. Comm. is considered a Star-level MB, it should be at the level of a middle school social studies class. If Cit. Nat. is an Eagle-level MB, it should be at the level of a high school government class with an understanding of Constitutional government something beyond Schoolhouse Rocks.

 

NUMBER TWO -- an advantage of this system is its ability to link certain merit badges to progressively more difficult "tracks" -- or to continue the college analogy, minors. An easy example would be the three citizenship badges. Or an example of something new, Camping may be a Star-level MB, which would be linked to Hiking or Pioneering as Life-level badges and Backpacking or Wilderness Survival at the Eagle level. Not only does this fulfill the promise of a truly progressive advancement system, but allows Scouts to build on his knowledge and experience to develop some true expertise in an area. No one earns a college degree with 120 hours of 100-level courses.

 

A couple other points:

• Dump First Year/First Class. The post above are correct. It is the genesis of an Eagle mill troop. We quit using it five or six years ago with no ill effects. Yep, some Scouts flounder around at Tenderfoot for a few years, but at some point the spark takes hold and they take off.
  
• First Aid I and First Aid II. There is very little taught T-2-1 which isn't in Webelos Readyman. The current First Aid MB requirements should be covered in T-2-1 and a higher level of first aid covered in the MB. Or make it two MBs, I don't care. An Eagle Scout should know more than very basic first aid. You want your older Scouts interested in first aid? Teach labor and delivery.
  
• Return to the emphasis on Scouts having to make and keep appointments, meet with and learn from an adult with some expertise in the topic of the MB. The Method of Adult Association is based on Scouts working with adults of high character and learning from them. This doesn't happen during the drive-by signing of a blue card during a troop meeting.
  
• Crack down on the wink and nod given to gimme summer camp merit badges.. Nuf said.
  
• And for Pete's sake, dump the stupid "no retesting" policy. For the life of me, other than pure ease of administration, I can think of no conceivable educational benefit for mandating "one-and-done" as official policy. The only rationale I've heard is the lame, "well, I bet you can't still do calculus." No, but when I was TAKING calculus, I could still do algebra. And when I was TAKING algebra, I could still do basic math. Once I graduated and was out from under the requirements of the Department of Public Instruction, I could choose for myself the subject for which maintaining proficiency was important. There is no reason we should be precluded from asking an Eagle candidate to demonstrate basic skill.
  

If you're still reading, thanks for hanging with me.

[Eagle94-A1 2687]

Stosh,

 

I know some folks hated the Skill Awards from 1972 - 1989, but I grew up in that period and liked how they allowed you to focus on one skill at a time, mastering the skills. I also liked how there was tenure requirements between T-2-1. For me there was no pressure to learn those skills to advance ASAP. It allowed us time to rally master those skills. Also sometimes you can learned "extra" stuff. I know I learned extra skills that, while not advancement oriented, were still important. And I admit, when first aid is scheduled, I like providing "extra" skills. Best example would be tonite. I have access to epi-pen trainers and I have an expert giving the lessons tonite on that. Why you ask, because the Scout teaching epi-pen use does have sever allergic reactions, and folks have had to use the epi-pen he keep on him twice during meetings when he was a Cub. So I consider that skill extremely important, even if it isn't in the requirements.

 

2Cub,

 

Agree with ya 110% on getting rid of the no retesting policy. G2A states that the badge represents what the scout CAN do, not what he has done. How can we know a Scout can do something if we cannot ask him to show us how it is done. Now the following may be anathema, but I will say it anyway. In regards to First Aid skills, if the Scout is not able to do the most current version of first aid, but can do the previous version correctly, I'll cut him some slack. Whye especially since First Aid is a big deal for me? Because every 5 years, first aid and CPR goes through revisions. And I've noticed a bit of lag time on getting BSA publications up to speed ont he most current techniques. FYI this year are the 2 big conferences that review first aid and CPR, so expect some changes to comeout in the Oct-Nov. time frame, and new AHA and ARC books to come out in March-Aug 2016.

 

On a similar note, I say this: DO AWAY WITH FIRST AID MERIT BADGE ALTOGETHER, INCORPORATING THE SKILLS IN THE T-2-1 REQUIREMENTS AND CREATE A WILDERNESS FIRST AID MERIT BADGE. (caps are emphasis, not shouting.) It chaps my hide that national no longer acknowledges the abilities of scouts to do first aid in a wilderness setting unless they go to an outside agency and get certified. For me, the requirement for WFA certification in order to do HA trips is all the proof of a problem with advancment.

 

And I agree, never heard the term 'Eagle Mill" until way after 1989. In fact I don't think I heard that term at all until 1996 or so, which is well after FCFY was implemented.

 

What I would like is MBCs to make sure the scouts truly mastered the skills they are working with the Scout on. I personally know that it can be upsetting to both parent and Scout to learn he didn't truly earn a MB. My son "earned" a MB at a MBC that after talking to him about, I discovered he actually didn't earn. He was rather upset at first that I told him I would not submit the paperwork to the SM until he did the requirements. But after talking to him, he understood, and had a blast doing the missing MB requirements.

[JoeBob 606]

Adding my endorsement to TwoCub's ideas. Especially:

 

The marketing/branding MBAs in Irving mission is to defang the curmudgeonly old Scoutmasters who know nothing about running a highly-profitable non-profit organization and get in the way of them maximizing the brand. Or something like that.

 

Return to the emphasis on Scouts having to make and keep appointments, meet with and learn from an adult with some expertise in the topic of the MB. The Method of Adult Association is based on Scouts working with adults of high character and learning from them. This doesn't happen during the drive-by signing of a blue card during a troop meeting.

 

And for Pete's sake, dump the stupid "no retesting" policy.

[fred johnson 936]

A lot written here that is good and bad. And some that is just too long for even me to read. ... Each of us would like to see a different set of changes. Fine.

 

My hot button topic is different. AND ... I'm tempted to start another merit badge topic to cover a different direction.

 

Hot button ... Merit Badge counselors should be expected to make the topic interesting. If they can't make it interesting for an average scout, then they are not qualified. If they don't have the time to make it interesting, then don't teach the badge. If the venue (one-on-one, MB fair, summer camp, etc) doesn't enable inspiring others, don't teach it there.

 

It's fine that some scouts won't like a topic or not in the right mood on that day or some other reason. But I've seen way way too many scouts chase merit badges because it's a merit badge. Even worse, I've seen way way way way too many MB situations where the MB counselor is obviously just addressing the requirements without a love or passion for the topic. That should be an automatic "stop right there" situation.

 

For any MB, the "requirements" should be the starting point, aka the minimum. After that, the MB councilor should inspire and help create a passion in the scout. Otherwise, why even teach the badge. Now we can't force scouts to be inspired, but we should expect our MBCs to have a gift and passion for the topic.

 

For example, when I council-ed multiple people in Citizen in the Nation, we have done most of it while at a nearby national historic landmark and we've talked a lot about the landmark, toured it and gone where you normally can't. IMHO, I get passionate about the topics and I think it's inspiring.

 

I really don't care if a scout gets any specific merit badge. It's only significant in my eyes if they leave with interest and/or new skills. For example the 40 year old who says they like to sail because they took small boat sailing at summer camp. Or the photographer who got interested because of a MB. .... or the scout who walks away from a MB saying that was cool.

 

 

 

 

[qwazse 4344]

... If the venue (one-on-one' date=' MB fair, summer camp, etc) doesn't enable inspiring others, don't teach it there. ...[/quote']

 

Thanks for the memory, Fred!

 

For a young teen, it was the crazy-coolest thing to meet a professor at a college science hall for a MB ... like Mr. Wizard, in 3-D with surround sound.

 

And even though it was basically reporting to the counselor on what I did on my own, I think it kinda had a long-term impact. Other freshmen had a "ooh I'm in college" attitude, where I had already roamed the halls of an (albeit humbler) academic institution, met during office hours, revised, resubmitted, etc ....

[DuctTape 1230]

One last thing i would like to add to my post in addition to agreeing with many of the sentiments. I apologize in advance if this offends, it is not the intent. The intent is to raise awareness of how language is descriptive of reality and also (often unconsciously) perpetuates it. The term I want to focus on is teach. We often hear, even in this thread, the counselor "teaching". IMO, their is a stark difference between a counselor who mentors, inspires, and facilitates exploration for an individual vs a teacher with a class of students. I am sure that many will argue a good teacher will also mentor and inspire etc... and a good counselor will also "teach". But our usage of the terms interchangeably without explicitly noting the differences does describe the current use of merit badge classes and "universities" (even though the BSA literature in the past cautioned against scouting being like school). These (d)evolved into merit badge factories. We do not have scouts calling counselors from an approved list (supposedly vetted by the district) who are experts in their field to mentor the scouts and perhaps inspire them to delve deeper into the activity. Instead we send them to a school-like atmosphere to take a class, complete with a workbook and 20 other students to check of lists. I suppose I am just rambling here and reiterating much of what i and others have already said.

 

Ok, one last real thought in the same theme of language use. Eagle is an Award, not a rank. I am not sure, but I thought Star and Life were also Awards and not ranks. If I am wrong, then perhaps this is what they should be. 1st class again as the highest rank, no merit badges (or maybe just 1st aid) and everything else is an Award. we should make a bigger deal about the 1st class rank and not the other awards.

[fred johnson 936]

The term I want to focus on is teach. We often hear' date=' even in this thread, the counselor "teaching". IMO, their is a stark difference between a counselor who mentors, inspires, and facilitates exploration for an individual vs a teacher with a class of students. [/quote']

 

Point taken. Counselor is more of a mentor who enables new experiences in the MB field.

 

 

Instead we send them to a school-like atmosphere to take a class' date=' complete with a workbook and 20 other students to check of lists. [/quote']

 

Agreed. IMHO, I think the "workbooks" and strict class room settings poison the MB experience. It's not the large group. It's the boring structure. Scouting is not supposed to be school. Scouting is about getting out, doing things, explorering and making friends. It's supposed to be different than school.

 

 

Ok, one last real thought in the same theme of language use. Eagle is an Award, not a rank. I am not sure, but I thought Star and Life were also Awards and not ranks. If I am wrong, then perhaps this is what they should be. 1st class again as the highest rank, no merit badges (or maybe just 1st aid) and everything else is an Award. we should make a bigger deal about the 1st class rank and not the other awards.

 

Yes and No.

 

Eagle is a rank. The term "rank" is used instead of "award" because Eagle Scout is not awarded (aka given / bestowed). Rank is used to emphasize the scout earns Eagle by completing requirements. It's emphasizing that the scout's controls his own advancement..

 

On the flip side, I think more emphasis should be given to doing well with earlier rank advancements. Only because I think it's often the case that when people object to someone earning Eagle, it's because of past issues at earlier ranks. The scout cruised by earning Star and Life. The scout didn't learn his basic skills well enough. IMHO, it's the wrong time to address it when the scout is working to earn his Eagle rank. The time to address those were earlier in his advancement.

[Hueymungus 73]

http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/programupdates.aspx Boy Scouts change in 2016.

[TAHAWK 1420]

No need to replace them. The effort to complete the rank requirements for Tenderfoot - 1st Class can all be measured. Maybe beef up the requirements from Tenderfoot to 1st Class and get rid of the "First Class, First Year" nonsense.

 

Here's a link to the original requirements for First Class.

 

 

The link is to the second (1911) version of the requirements for First Class. There were only ten requirements in the original, 1910, version, not twelve, and they differed in substance.. Original Requirement 4, for example, was:

 

4. Go on foot, or row a boat, alone to a point seven miles away and return again; or if conveyed by any vehicle, or animal, go to a distance of fifteen miles and back, and write a short report on it. It is preferable that he should take two days over it.

 

The 1911 version was:

 

4. Make a round trip alone (or with another scout) to a point {18} at least seven miles away, going on foot or rowing boat, and write a satisfactory account of the trip and things observed.

[TAHAWK 1420]

I don't think I would agree to the elimination of them as rank. However, I would support a significant restriction on how and when they can be earned.

 

Such as limit the merit badges which can be earned prior to 1st class, add pre-requisite MBs to some MB's, eliminate/reduce the double-dipping of requirements, prohibit merit badge "classes" with large groups, prohibit scouts from being MB "counselors" at summer camp, to name a few.

 

 

Scouts are already prohibited from being Merit Badge Counselors, at camp or otherwise. One must be 18 years of age to be a Merit Badge Counselor. The Councils simply break the rules (and "Trustworthy") and are allowed to do so by B.S.A.

 

Classes are not so much the problem as the practice of failing to individually test, which the Councils allow in violation of the rules. Again, B,S.A. is aware of this preactive and allows it to go on.

 

Prerequisite MB's sounds like a good idea - Camping before Wilderness Survival, for example.

 

...

 

Take the required MB's for Eagle and incorporate them into the T-FC After all, if they are necessary to be an Eagle, they are surely necessary to be a Scout in general. This also allows the boys to take more MB's as electives on subjects of their own choosing.

 

Stosh

 

Sorry, Stosh, I don;t get this at all. If it's required for the highest rank, it's therefore "necessary" for the three lowest ranks? How so? If you are contending for more rigorous requirements for getting to First Class, that's a decent topic for discussion on it's own.

[LeCastor 641]

 

I really don't care if a scout gets any specific merit badge. It's only significant in my eyes if they leave with interest and/or new skills. For example the 40 year old who says they like to sail because they took small boat sailing at summer camp. Or the photographer who got interested because of a MB. .... or the scout who walks away from a MB saying that was cool.

 

 

When I was a Scout in Atlanta, we went to an inner-city high school for a NESA merit badge day (*gasp* a MB factory) and I earned the Engineering MB. Yes, I earned one badge that day--not 17. There were actually a few counselors there that day and they were all from Georgia Tech. Since my grandpa was an electrical engineer who worked closely with the Air Force and NASA in the 50s and 60s, I was totally into the space program. I went to Space Camp and Space Academy in Huntsville, AL and I knew I wanted to be an aeronautical engineer and become a "Ramblin' Wreck from Georgia Tech". I went away from that Engineering MB session with a heightened sense of purpose and shared the news with my grandpa. (He was pretty stoked about it.).

 

It wasn't until later in school that I realized I was crap at math. My interests changed and I eventually studied foreign languages in college and graduate school. But I still remember that day in Atlanta and think back on it fondly.

[Twocubdad 665]

 

 

It wasn't until later in school that I realized I was crap at math.

 

LOL. Reality has a way of creeping in and biting us in the butt, eh?

 

I think we all have an inflated view of the role of merit badges in career development. Over and over again I see Scouts earning the merit badge for the career they wish to pursue AFTER developing an interest in the subject. That's been the case for myself, both my sons and four or five more of my Scouts I can name off the top of my head. In the case of both my sons, they were disappointed in the content and depth of the merit badges and both felt they knew more about it than the summer camp counselor who taught it.

 

But inspiration comes in strange forms. I have another Scout, a junior in college, who sold discount books to raise money for his Eagle project. He claims to have enjoyed that so much that he decided to major in business and marketing.