There’ll be no tent for God at Camp Dawkins (UK)

[fgoodwin 23]

Therell be no tent for God at Camp Dawkins (UK)

 

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article6591231.ece

 

Britains most prominent non-believer is backing its first atheist summer camp for children.

 

June 28, 2009

Lois Rogers

 

WHEN schoolchildren break up for their summer holidays at the end of next month, India Jago, aged 12, and her brother Peter, 11, will be taking a vacation with a twist.

 

While their friends jet off to Spain or the Greek islands, the siblings will be hunting for imaginary unicorns in Somerset, while learning about moral philosophy. The Jagos, from Basingstoke, Hampshire, are among 24 children who will be taking part in Britains first summer camp for atheists.

 

The five-day retreat is being subsidised by Richard Dawkins, the evolutionary biologist and author of The God Delusion, and is intended to provide an alternative to faith-based summer camps normally run by the Scouts and Christian groups.

 

Crispian Jago, an IT consultant, is hoping the experience will enrich his two children.

 

Im very keen on not indoctrinating them with religion or creeds, he said this weekend. I would rather equip them with the tools to learn how to think, not what to think.

 

While afternoons at the camp will involve familiar activities such as canoeing and swimming, the youngsters mornings will be spent debunking supernatural phenomena such as the formation of crop circles and telepathy. Even Uri Gellers apparent ability to bend spoons with his mind will come under scrutiny.

 

The emphasis on critical thinking is epitomised by a test called the Invisible Unicorn Challenge. Children will be told by camp leaders that the area around their tents is inhabited by two unicorns. The activities of these creatures, of which there will be no physical evidence, will be regularly discussed by organisers, yet the children will be asked to prove that the unicorns do not exist. Anyone who manages to prove this will win a 10 note - which features an image of Charles Darwin, the father of evolutionary theory - signed by Dawkins, a former professor of the public understanding of science at Oxford University.

 

The unicorns are not necessarily a metaphor for God, they are to show kids that you cant prove a negative, said Saman-tha Stein, who is leading next months camp at the Mill on the Brue outdoor activity centre close to Bruton, Somerset.

 

We are not trying to bash religion, but it encourages people to believe in a lot of things for which there is no evidence.

 

Stein, 23, a postgraduate psychology student from London, was inspired to work at an atheist summer camp in America after reading The God Delusion, the bestselling book that sealed Dawkinss reputation as Britains most prominent non-believer. Stein is now helping to bring the US concept, called Camp Quest, to Britain as an alternative to faith-based childrens retreats.

 

The Scout Association, which has 500,000 members who collectively spend 2m nights camping out each year, is Britains biggest organiser of childrens camps. All new Scouts - whether Christian, Jewish, Muslim or from another religious background - are required to pledge to do their duty to their god or faith. Atheism, however, is not accounted for in this induction oath.

 

Christian organisations that run summer camps include the Church Pastoral Aid Society, an evangelical group, which operates 100 schemes attended by about 9,000 children.

 

Camp Quest was founded in America, where Bible classes and Christian retreats are widespread, by Edwin Kagin, an atheist lawyer from Kentucky.

 

Since launching in 1996, Camp Quest operates at six different US sites, with a new camp due to open in Florida at Christmas.

 

Amanda Metskas is currently supervising 71 children at a Camp Quest project in Clarkesville, Ohio. Her classes include a session called Socrates Cafe, which debates issues such as definitions of knowledge, art and justice. We teach them that even people like Sir David Attenborough are religious sceptics, said Metskas.

 

Kagin, 68, the son of a church minister, will be visiting the camp in Somerset next month.Richard Dawkins has made a contribution towards the setting up of the camp in England, but I think now the idea has a momentum of its own, he said.

 

A week-long stay at the Mill on the Brue Activity Centre normally costs more than 500, but parents who have booked their children on the Camp Quest package are paying 275. Next year Stein hopes to run atheist camps at Easter and during school half-term breaks.

 

Additional reporting: Philip Connolly

[Chug 10]

275 for five days camping!!!!! My son will be going camping with the Cubs in a couple of weeks, also for five days. This will cost us the princley sum of 40. Instead of there children hunting for invisible unicorns, maybe they should be looking for the rest of their money. I doubt if they'll have any more success than their search for mythical beasts.

 

Can't say that I've ever run or been on a faith based Scout camp. There's usually a "Scouts Own" service on Sunday, but it's never compulsory.

 

 

[evmori 11]

The unicorns are not necessarily a metaphor for God, they are to show kids that you cant prove a negative,

 

We are not trying to bash religion, but it encourages people to believe in a lot of things for which there is no evidence.

 

And you can't disprove a negative either.

 

 

[Hal_Crawford 15]

Chug:

40 for a week at camp? That is an amazing bargain! The best price for a week at Cub camp in our area is US$255. Not sure today's exchange rate but safe to say that is more than 3 times what you are paying. What the atheists are paying would actually be a fairly reasonable price for a non-scout camp in the US. Many charge over US$1000/week! Scouting is a bargain!

 

As to the atheist kids going to camp? Good for them! Every kid, regardless of faith (or lack thereof) deserves to experience camp.

 

Hope your son has a great week at camp.

 

Hal

[Kahuna 172]

Won't make much difference in the end what they teach the kids. People tend to go through different stages in their spirituality as they age. You can't turn a kid into an atheist at summer camp. Probably better for them than the camp portrayed in the movie Jesus Camp.

[Merlyn_LeRoy 72]

What the article doesn't mention is that Ed Kagin is an ex-Eagle scout and he started Camp Quest in response to the BSA's kicking out atheists.

 

And Ed:

"And you can't disprove a negative either."

 

Wrong, Ed. It's easy and done all the time.

 

Here's an example of a negative which is easy to disprove:

"Chairs don't exist."

 

It's easy to disprove it if you can find a chair.

 

But prove that unicorns don't exist. You can't, because the search space is the universe. Even if you can't find one, you can't be sure they aren't somewhere else.

 

Maybe you should go to Camp Quest, Ed. They teach critical thinking and logic.

[evmori 11]

Then disprove there is a God, Merlyn.(This message has been edited by evmori)

[skeptic 997]

Merlyn:

 

So, you have made our point; "YOU CANNOT prove God exists, but you also CANNOT PROVE God does not exist". Perhaps he/she is simply out in the universe riding the unicorn.

[Merlyn_LeRoy 72]

Ed & skeptic, you've missed the point.

 

Of COURSE I can't disprove gods, ANY gods. OR unicorns, or any number of things. This is not a good reason to believe in gods or unicorns.

 

That's what "you cant prove a negative" MEANS, and that's one thing Camp Quest is trying to show kids.

 

But this elementary bit of logic escapes both of you.

 

Now, since none of you can prove that unicorns don't exist, do you believe they do exist?

[evmori 11]

Hence my point is made!

 

This is sorta like asking the question - If a tree falls in the woods and no one is around to hear it does it make a noise? I'm sure there is a purpose to sitting around & pondering such things but I'm not sure it's a good one!

[Merlyn_LeRoy 72]

Hence my point is made!

 

What point, Ed? Your original "point" was flatly wrong -- you CAN disprove a negative. Your later point about not being able to disprove gods is exactly the same point made at Camp Quest about not being able to disprove unicorns.

 

So what point are you talking about Ed? Do you now believe in unicorns because you can't disprove them?

[evmori 11]

Your example of the chair as a negative is bunk!

 

Just because you haven't seen or felt or can't see or feel something doesn't mean it doesn't exist. It doesn't mean it does exist, either. Believing in thinks you can't see & feel is called faith! And I have faith God exists. I know you don't, Merlyn. If it can't be proven you don't seem to want to acknowledge it's existence. And that is sad.

[Merlyn_LeRoy 72]

Your example of the chair as a negative is bunk!

 

No it isn't, Ed. "Chairs don't exist" is a negative statement. It is easily shown to be false by example.

 

"Gods don't exist" would likewise be shown to be false if someone could come up with an example.

 

If you want something a bit less trivial, "Coelacanths no longer exist" was thought to be true until one was found off the coast of Africa in 1938.

 

Just because you haven't seen or felt or can't see or feel something doesn't mean it doesn't exist. It doesn't mean it does exist, either.

 

I know that, Ed.

 

Believing in thinks you can't see & feel is called faith! And I have faith God exists. I know you don't, Merlyn. If it can't be proven you don't seem to want to acknowledge it's existence. And that is sad.

 

Why, Ed? Is it sad that you don't acknowledge the existence of unicorns?

 

By the way, Ed, I'll ask again:

 

Hence my point is made!

 

What point, Ed?

 

[evmori 11]

Stating chairs don't exist is the same as stating this forum doesn't exist. We all know both do. Hence, the statement is bunk.

 

Is that what this lovely little camp is going to teach kids? How to disprove the obvious?

 

What is sad, Merlyn, is you can't acknowledge the existence of something you can't prove. Time to take off the blinders.

 

My point - You can't prove God doesn't exist.

 

 

[mdlscouting 10]

"The emphasis on critical thinking is epitomised by a test called the Invisible Unicorn Challenge. Children will be told by camp leaders that the area around their tents is inhabited by two unicorns. The activities of these creatures, of which there will be no physical evidence, will be regularly discussed by organisers, yet the children will be asked to prove that the unicorns do not exist."

 

By This Logic, we could send kids on a snipe hunt as part of the requirements for a Critical Thinking Merit Badge.