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As stated, I personally have no problem with routine health choices that are against Catholics policy being done at the hospital/clinic down the street.. No one yet has answered my question if they will treat homosexuals or perform an abortion in order to save the life of the mother.. That is what my personal opinion would say would be wrong in the Catholics way of doing business..


But, me.. It is not my choice.. All I am saying is if you take money from the government, then the government will not be a silent partner.. And that is the way it is..


I am sure there are catholic health providers working in the public hospitals, in order to work there sometimes they will have to do their job even if it is against their beliefs. That or quit their jobs.. It's a choice.. Maybe this is a choice the Catholic hospitals need to make also..


All I can say is the Catholic church has diversified from being a religion to being a buisness by runing hospital, schools and whatever else they decided to get into buisness about.. When they crossed that line from religion to business, they are swimming with the sharks and do not have the ability to hide behind their religion status..


Oh, and by the way, Catholic schools are not for the poor. The poor tend to go to public schools.. And my mom for some reason was sent to the Catholic hospital in an emergancy.. They billed us the same way as any other public hospital.. No feeling like we walked into a charity operation, no reduced price due to the fact they aren't paying taxes.. (Do they pay taxes in their business ventures? Or hide behind their religion, and run tax free buisnesses?)


Protestants have alway been a more humble, poorer religion so I could never see them diversifing into profit making businesses.. Therefore they can more easily keep the seperation of church & state..


Jewish people, have many very shrewd buisness people, but still I don't see a mix of the religion going into buisness.. So they can continue to enjoy seperation of church and state..


Catholics have chosen this path, have become very wealthy from this path, but sorry.. They are not 100% a religion, they are a buisness also and unfortunatly in doing so, not as well protected..


Sorry if that is reality, sometimes reality stinks..!! Can't have your cake and eat it too. Maybe you need to think about only operating health clinics for the poor, rather then full service hospitals.(This message has been edited by moosetracker)(This message has been edited by moosetracker)

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So let's close all the Cathlolic hospitals. That's only twelve percent of the healthcare system and 28 of the top 100 hospitals.


Doctor shortage? We don't need no stinking Doctors! We've got government healthcare!


Oh wait....

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Maybe rather then closing them you can find a buyer for them?? Sell the business, go back to being a religion..


If there is a need for a hospital in the area, I am sure someone will buy them.. If you are next door to a public hospital, maybe not, unless someone can see turning the building into condos or something.


As you say, they have stated they will shut their doors rather then accept the terms of government funding.. You may just have to do that.. I know other buisnesses that have had to close their doors due to government sanctions.. You won't be the first, you wont be the last. Most have to close their doors because the stricter rules make the business unprofitable, but closing your doors on principal is just a valid, and I am sure there is a history of businesses closing for that reason.. The benefit is you are able to sell someone else a profitable business..


Sorry, business is business.. Business is brutal and cruel and cold at times..


I can feel sorry for you though, as I have felt bad for others I know who have lost businesses.. It is an emotional decision to make..(This message has been edited by moosetracker)

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Uh, moose, I guess you might live in an area where there aren't that many Catholics and so perhaps have limited personal interaction, but you do seem to be quite negative toward them. Just saying.


About this: "Protestants have alway been a more humble, poorer religion so I could never see them diversifing into profit making businesses.. "


Really? Mega churches? Televangelists? Don't get me started!





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If Televangelist are protestants then I am wrong.. I flip the channel too fast on them to figure out what they are spouting off about.. I guess I am more familure with the protestants who have simple churches and whose local church is there local church, only the minister may have communication with the central office, but the normal members aren't even aware of their existance.. The local church raises any funds to build a church or add on to a church, they interveiw and select and hire their own minister, they organize the ministers house, pay his salary, and pay for the upkeeping of the church.. If they can't support their church, they either merge with another church, or share ministers (who may preach at 2 different churches at different times on Sunday.)


But, you are right.. Since they are pretty much self supporting, self governing.. I guess they are the group that might allow Televangelists to run amuck, and become cult like.


I am not against the Catholic religion.. And they can believe what they want to in their religion. But, if they muck up their religion with buisness I don't see why they are confused that they are treated as any other buisness would be.. (Same goes with the Televangelists too...)


I am also not in favor of any religion trying to force governmental rules in favor of their religious.. Government is Government, Business is Business and religion is religion.. Once you start mucking up the whole line drawn in the sand thing, well don't be surprised if you muck it up and it doesn't always turn out to your benefit..(This message has been edited by moosetracker)

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I thought 'pro-choice' meant people having a choice. Now it seems that the tolerant left has defined 'pro-choice' to mean 'doing it our way', or else! "We choose that your Cathollic doctors will perform abortions!"


(It is not an abortion issue for me. I am a lonely pro-choice Republican. It's about freedom.)


Moose said: "Sorry, business is business.."

Business usually involves markets freely picking winners and loosers. Suggesting that Catholic hospitals sell themselves to secular entities in order to escape conflict with government regulation seems like a pretty heinous example of federal interfence in the free market.

How are those investments in green energy companies working out? Sell many Volts? I read that they're burning out of the showrooms!!

Wanna buy some Solyndra stock? Oh wait. If you paid taxes you already have bought your Solyndra...

Sorry - ranting pulled me off track.


Moose, where are you gonna find all the non-Catholic healthcare workers needed to staff that 12% of sold hospitals? Bear in mind that Catholics are 22% of the population, and the US is currently facing a doctor shortage.


Don't think this is going anywhere?






"Catholics are fired up over new rules implementing Obama's health care reform law forcing Catholic universities, hospitals, and charities to provide insurance for their employees covering contraception -- even though that violates church teachings."


And this fuss is just over forcing Catholic businesses to pay for insurance that provides birth control. You think they would allow Catholic doctors to perform abortions? Ain't gonna happen!





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So here is a suggestion.. Have your catholic doctors choose something other then becoming an Obstetrician. Few Podiatrists or Neurosurgans will be asked to perform an abortion..


Remove the Birthing wings, and specialize in things that don't involve abortions. Like your St. Judes hospital.. Because of it's specialty, why would it be forced to close it's doors? It is not a hospital that would be asked to preform an abortion..


You have choices, sell the hospitals, move into medical fields that wont put your values to the test, change the hospitals specialities, don't except federal funding. There are probably alot more choices you have.. You just don't want to look for a choice. You want it your way.. Maybe you will get it, maybe you wont. But, if you don't, you will have choices. That is all I am saying and you hopping up and down and screaming "There is no choice" "There is no choice" "It's either my way, or America is doomed!" Sorry, it is just not true.. The truth is, you don't like your other choices.


If Catholic hospitals fold, and Catholic Doctors go into teaching rather then practice.. The medical schools will loosen their tight acceptance quota to train more Doctors, Government will find funding to subsidize college costs for Doctors. Someone will see profit in opening a hospital to take the place of the lost facility.. It is the American way. One man's loss is another man's gain.


I never said I was pro or against government interferance.. But it is there, it is a reality, and you have to deal with it same as any other business who had dealt with government interference, because you are running a business..


But I do support government aiding green energy.. Even if we do hit a few failures, we do have to stop depending on foreign oil someday.. We will see if later down the pike, when we get success, if I will like the government payback for this funding..(This message has been edited by moosetracker)

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Come on Moosie! Sounds a bit like catholic bashing...


There are Baptist Hospitals. In fact the big merger locally here was of the Catholic and Baptist hospitals.


Catholics, Anglicans, Lutherans, Baptists, and Methodists (and especially Methodist) all have formed colleges, hospitals, publishing houses, and yes not-for-profit development companies (I worked with them when I was at HUD). I have seen Jewish hospitals in south florida. All have benefited from this constitutional "loop hole". (lets not talk about Scientology--a sore subject in nearby Pinellas county) All will charge you real money.


Per capita, several Protestant denominations --Presbyterians, Episcopalians, and Lutherans I think higher incomes than Catholics.


The Methodists alone were quite busy beavers founding things right and left.


Historically Catholic schools and hospitals were prevalent not because of a desire to be rich but because:


(1) There were a LOT of catholics.

(2) Priests, Nuns, and Brothers would staff these institutions at very low pay. As they have dies out and being replaced by paid staff many of these places are becoming more expensive.

(3) Some catholic ethnic groups (irish, portugese, spanish) could not get in or were served poorly by existing institutions. So there was a demand. This has been a pattern seen worldwide. This was why there were historically black colleges.


Yes ANY institution will tend to (A) Empire build and (B)protect its competitive advantages. Look at BSA national as well.


But I would argue that it is not a Catholic-only phenomena.

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I suspect that whenever one tries to generalize about an entire religion and their adherents' behaviors or proclivities, one gets into trouble. Even more so, when one generalizes about a religious group other than one's own.

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Great.. Then TT.. I will stand with what I said for Catholics with any business founded by any religion.. Protestent, Jewish, Methodist etc.. I still feel you mix buisness with religion, then don't be upset if the business end of your structure doesn't get all the benefits that your religious end of the structure does.. There so now the Catholics do not need to feel picked upon by my viewpoint.. All religions can feel picked upon..


I have not said that Catholics have to close their doors.. I have not hooted and hollered about their wealth over their buisness practices.. I have not said that in my viewpoint they have to preform abortions.. I have not said that the government is right for trying to force them to change.. I have even said that personally, I don't care that for routine procedures they choose to personally not provide abortions or hand out contraceptives.



All I have said is it is a reality of buisness. All I have said is they do have choices. All I have said is Business is Business. All I have done is offer up some (I am sure not all) choices that they can make if they loose their battle, and state that the world will not come to an end if they loose their battle..


I don't see it as bashing Catholics.. I just see it as being realistic of the world around me.


Now if the Government was on the Catholics Church door steps forcing them to perform homosexual marriages.. I would be on the side of the Catholic church to say that Government is stepping in where Government should not be..

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Moose: "Now if the Government was on the Catholics Church door steps forcing them to perform homosexual marriages.. I would be on the side of the Catholic church to say that Government is stepping in where Government should not be.."


Since a Catholic hospital should be considered a part of the Catholic church, how is government standing in the hospital demanding that they perform abortion/murder any different? Is murder less important than marriage?


Whatever happened to the cherished separation of church and state?


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As I have been stating over & over & over again.. Now you are running a business.. You mucked up and blurred the lines starting that business.. Then you received funds from the government for the business blurring the lines still further..


Your business may be run by the church, but it is not the church. If all your businesses Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, etc.. were declared no longer tax exempt, in order to balance the budget.. Well, I will not fight for you.. It is not the same as your religion.. It is a mucked up mess of I don't know what.


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Moosie, as long as you are ecumenical in your bashing, it is fine with me! :)


As others have stated, I think the minute you take the governments money well then you get the governments string attached to it. If you want to maintain your Independence well make it work without it, some religious based schools do.


I will say- it WAS a good topic!

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A good synopsis of the legal positions:




The law since 1973: "In 1973, just months after Roe was decided, Congress passed the Church Amendment, declaring that health-care institutions cannot be required to perform abortions to keep their federal funding. The so-called Weldon Amendment, which has been included in appropriations bills since 2005, says any agency that tries to discriminate against hospitals that dont provide abortions will lose its own federal funds."


But now Obamacare Czar Donald Berwick, a controversial recess appointment, in conjunction with the "ACLU is contemplating an action that could eliminate at least 15 percent of the nations hospital beds the proportion provided by Catholic hospitals alone. Its threatening not only to trample the consciences of religious health-care workers and institutions, but to hurt every American through the loss of hospitals, doctors, and nurses who can no longer carry out their ministry of healing."


I'm betting on the Catholics on this one.


What next? No circumcisions (child mutilation!) for folks of the Jewish faith?

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