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CalicoPenn if the Tea Party has been " thoroughly taken over by the right wing with an agenda quite different from what they want.", then why are they still relevant in the conversation - even if it were true that it is only as an obstacle?


Would we even be having this conversation if it were true that the Tea Party has been " thoroughly taken over by the right wing with an agenda quite different from what they want."?

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Yah, good points, Gunny. I don't mean to be paintin' ordinary folks who sympathize with some of da Tea Party principles with any brush. In a lot of ways I'm one of 'em, especially when it comes to accounting trickery. I guess I'm limiting my critique to the members of Congress who claim Tea Party affiliation and some of their other spokespeople. I believe they acted stupidly and recklessly, and showed they were willing to destroy the nation if they didn't get their way. Unbelievably, mindlessly dangerous. Such people have no business being in public office.


Real conservatives care about da country more than any one policy position. That's the point, eh? Folks in da armed forces are willin' to give up their lives to protect da country from harm. These buffoons weren't willing to give up tax loopholes even though it would cause the country enormous harm. There's just no comparison. It's shameful.


Yah, Kahuna, to my mind pledges to special interest lobbying groups of any sort should be considered anti-American, whether it's a pledge to da ACLU or to Norquist's group. Da only pledge that should matter to a public official is the Oath they swore to the country.


I agree with yeh though that no one is blameless. I think da president showed a real lack of leadership. Sure, he proposed a $4T compromise that was pretty well balanced, but he never really called out the opposition. Da fellow is too much of a moderate manager rather than a leader. Me, back in May when we first crossed the debt limit and started "accounting tricks", I would have started shuttin' things down. By May 15, congressional pay and benefits would be suspended. By May 30 all pork barrel projects would be halted. By mid June, all national parks and federal convenience services closed; by the end of June all non-life-threatening Medicare and veterans services would be halted. And by mid July, no Social security checks. Somewhere in there we'd get to break-even, so I expect we could have a lottery to see who gets their check each month and which senior dies for lack of ability to pay the air conditioning bill. But by then I'd be instructing da Interior Secretary to sell the congressional office building. Hey, they're only there part time, and they don't do much productive work anyway. They can rent space out of their tax savings.


I figure da TPs would fold pretty early on rather than face da sort of nation mindless balance and cap would create in real life. Their constituents may care about da country, but their congresspeople have demonstrated that they only care about their popularity and re-election prospects.






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1) Spend ALOT less...

2) Eliminate ALL price supports, depreciation allowances, etc.

3) Make income taxes as evenly applied as possible, perhaps even (shudder) graduated (not "stepped") from the the minimum to the maximum.

4) Reconsider ALL the various deductions and exemptions that do not have application to charity and/or religious things.

5) Reconsider considering corporate entities as being (or not being?) equivalent to human entities, in their responsibilities re taxes and political contributions....

6) Ask our legislative people to prove their sincerity by donating back to the treasury 10% of their salary ( can't legally change their present salary). Ask the same of every federal executive of Departmental level or higher.

7) Bring our troops home, give them jobs and apply them to infrastructure rehab , ala Roosevelt NRA...

8) Investigate war profiteering by (insert name here) during the Iraq and Afghanistan incursions.

9) Read Smedley Butler's book, "War is a Racket" http://www.ratical.org/ratville/CAH/warisaracket.html

10) Cancel 10% of every military program (ie. 10% of all F-111s budgeted, 10% of all Ospreys ordered, etc. ). Put savings toward deficit retirement, not just "savings".

11) Resolve to not touch SSI to help with budgetary concerns. Yeah, I know, SS is in trouble, let that part of our woes deal with itself...Another thread...

12)Resolve to pay off the ENTIRE deficit in , say 15 years, via volutary tax donations, tax program adjustments (new taxes, old taxes redefined, see above), balance sheet reapplications (savings applied to the deficit, not to "save" other programs), reminders that departments may NOT buy new board meeting rooms but may recycle old furniture (awards to acknowledge those that do such)(see http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/commuting/airports-board-puts-the-brakes-on-new-boardroom/2011/07/21/gIQA9vgQSI_story.html

for example), reminders that every little bit helps.

13) Reinstate the "Golden Fleece " award. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Fleece_Award Be free in it's awarding. Be public about it.


14) Go camping and hiking alot.

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"Go camping and hiking alot." Most important, as we prepare for the ultimate collapse. At least Scouting, when played closely to the original program, will actually be again pertinent; they will "Be Prepared".


So now, we have linked this whole discussion back to Scouting.

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I'm afraid the original, grassroots, tea party isn't relevant to the conversation. When the conversation is about the tea party, it's understood by most people to mean the right wing of the GOP. It's no longer seen as bipartisan, it's no longer seen as grassroots.


The media has accepted the right wing as the tea party, and has helped with the co-option of the tea party by identifying them as the Joe Walshes (not the singer), Michelle Bachmans, and Sara Palin's of the world.

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And there's the rub. The Two major entities have been working together so long that they are two side of the same coin - something (in this case the Tea Party) came in and shook up the process. And a lot of people think that the business as usual needed to be shaken up.

Does that mean that anyone is fully happy with what the outcome is: I doubt it. But IMHO its good to see that the Office holders are at least considering whether they need to take what we think into account rather than just cutting deals without considering the electorate at all.(This message has been edited by Gunny2862)

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If "the people" don't want the Congress to engage in politics with policy, I guess they elected the wrong people to office this time.



In the last Congress, the Democratic majority in the House was politically impotent against the minority Republicans in the Senate.


In this Congress, the majority Republicans in the House are calling the tune for the Senate and President.


In other such situations we have seen much hand wringing about political "gridlock." Not this time.


Frankly, the Republicans have been making monkeys out of the Democrats. I wonder how long that will continue?(This message has been edited by seattlepioneer)

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Beavah, "If ever a group proved themselves completely incapable of governing intelligently and responsibly, da Tea Party Republicans did."


Actually its the Tea Party who are true conservatives and patriots. Most of them are not thinking about themselves but how we can get the countries affairs straighten out and in line with the Constitution.


The debt problem of the nation cannot be solved by taking more money from the people and then giving to others to use as they please. The solution is to control spending something allot of the current folks in congress either don't understand or don't care to, because they are more interested in staying in office than fixing the problems. Having worked with funding government funding issues at the lowest levels of the government (I was the financial manager for my unit while in the Air Force) I can assure you that there is allot of unneeded spending that accrues that would save thousands of dollars every year. You should see the craziness come September 30th every year.



Beavah, "Everyone who has half a brain also knows that we can't support da current Social Security, Medicare, Defence, and Veterans programs with a tax rate that predates most of da current forms of those programs."


Well lets just look at these programs one at a time.


Social Security, originally designed to pay for its self however was missed managed by congress by taking surplus out and using it else where because the numbers showed that the income was greater or equal to the out go. Now that projections show that the out go is going to be more than the income the rules get changed. Why, all because of mismanagement by congress. SSI was intended to supplement retirements of those who worked, not to provide money for disability programs, or to provide for those who don't work. The fix is simple put the money taken out of the program for other programs back and go back to what the original intent was.


Medicare, a program payed into by those who work for the purpose of providing health care for retirees mostly because when one retires their health care from their employer retires with them. It pretty simple you pay into the program you get the benefit of the program at retirement age. The program was designed to pay for its self.

However, the program has been changed to provide health care for anyone who needs no matter the age and no matter if you paid into the program. Fix is simple put the program back to the original intent, health care for retirees.


Defense, necessary to maintain the freedoms provided to all citizens by the Constitution. That said there are lots of ares where spending cuts can be taken without effecting the pay or equipment provided to our military personal in order for them to accomplish their mission.


Veterans, being a veteran it alway gets my dandruff up when people talk about cutting veteran benefits. While I will agree that there is areas where cuts could be made and where money could be saved. The people in this category have earned every benefit the have. They have put their own interests on hold in order to provide a society where all other can enjoy their interests, work at a job of their choosing, attend the church of their choice, speak their mind without repercussion, or just enjoy a picnic in their back yard. Then they come out of the service and find out that they can't get a job without further schooling, or they end up working for minimum wage.


For instance a military person who was a plumber in the military can not get out of the military and start working a plumber without having to enter into an apprenticeship program. Why, because of state regulations and unions nor recognizing the education and experience the veteran received in the service.


And just in case you are wondering in order to use the GI Bill a veteran member must have paid into the program while in the service, and they have ten years to use the program from the time they were discharged or they lose it.


Also retired veterans have to pay for their health care for them and their families, unless it service related. Retirees with a disability don't get extra money they only get a portion of their retirement paid as non taxable income. Yes I'm taxed on my retirement income.






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Sorry for the long rant in my last post. It just irks me the first things brought up to cut is the only true entitlement programs, Social Security, Medicare, and Veterans. Or they talk about Defense, EMS, Fire, Police, infrastructure, ect..


How come no one ever mentions programs like Health and Welfare, Department of Education, Department of Environmental Quality, Army corps of engineers, Department of interior, Department of agriculture, and many other federal programs that suck money out of the system just to pay those working in the programs. Why not start the cuts in the personnel department.

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Methinks some of you have misplaced the Tea Party.


The traditional 'Play along, get along' GOP is scared to death of the Tea Party. The Tea Party is a splinter group of independants and fiscal conservatives who routinely threaten to 'primary' RINO conservatives to make them adhere to conservative fiscal principles.


One of the GOP's biggest concerns for 2012 is keeping the Tea Party happy. If the Tea Party doesn't like the GOP nominee, there may be a third party Tea Party candidate. By avoiding social issues and running on immigration, security, and fiscal issues; the Tea Party could co-opt many independants and a few conservative Democrats who can't bring themselves to vote for the Tele-Prompter-in-Chief.

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I've generally thought of myself as middle of the road. I've voted for both parties depending on the candidate. But with the debt discussions, I tend to agree with the cutting side ... if it is possible. I had a hard time trying to decide who is right. But here's some stats from the IRS... I don't have the exact numbers with me right now, but I think I'm pretty close from what I remember.


- USA has 311 million people. Roughly 190 million working age. 140 million tax returns.


- Of the 140 million tax returns, the top 1% of returns pays 27.6% of the taxes; top 5% pays 57% (might be higher). Top 10% pays almost 70%. Bottom 36% (around 50 million tax returns) have no tax liability. Bottom 25% ... of tax returns ... around 35 million tax returns ... get more money back from the IRS than was paid in.


- Debt is approx 14 trillion. Saying it's 45 thousand dollars of debt per person is meaningless when 36% don't contribute to paying back the debt and 25% pull money out thru their tax "return". If you correct for the percent they pay, someone in the top 1% of tax returns has a debt liability of $2,500,000. Someone in the top 5% has a liability of $1,500,000.

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How come no one ever mentions programs like Health and Welfare, Department of Education, Department of Environmental Quality, Army corps of engineers, Department of interior, Department of agriculture, and many other federal programs that suck money out of the system just to pay those working in the programs. Why not start the cuts in the personnel department.


OK. Let's stop inspecting nursing homes, making federal student loans, checking air quality, building and maintaining bridges and dams, managing water resources in the West and inspecting food quality.

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