The American heartland

[evmori 11]

No Merlyn, that's not gonna work! You posted the bible is not clear on the issue. Where? Chapter & verse, please, and not the line about denominations not agreeing.

[GernBlansten 10]

Ed, re-read what you are asking Merlyn for. You want him to prove a negative. You can't do that. If he thinks the Bible isn't clear on the issue, there will be no supporting verse to prove his point. He could produce any random verse that would demonstrate his claim.

[vol_scouter 365]

There is no doubt about the Bible's stance on homosexuality. See the scholarly work: "The Bible and Homosexual Practice: Texts and Hermeneutics" by Robert A. J. Gagnon. Gagnon reviews all references to homosexuality in the Bible and analyzes the verses. He also reviews the historical setting for the passage to put the issue in the proper context. He is an academic and the book is difficult but the conclusions are clear - homosexuality is wrong throughout the Bible. Sects who interpret the meaning differently are simply not right. Don't take my word, read Gagnon's book.

[GernBlansten 10]

And those sects who interpret the Bible that way should not be required to engage in the sacrament of marriage for homosexuals. Why impose your religious interpretations on the rest of the general public?

Marriage goes beyond the church.

[Merlyn_LeRoy 72]

There is no doubt about the Bible's stance on homosexuality.

 

If there wasn't, Christians wouldn't disagree about it. They do. There is doubt.

 

homosexuality is wrong throughout the Bible. Sects who interpret the meaning differently are simply not right.

 

Well, it's easy to assert ANYTHING by saying "I'm right, and anyone who disagrees is wrong," but that does nothing to end real, actual disagreements. It's just an attempt to ignore disagreements and pretend none exist.

[Hal_Crawford 15]

vol:

My religion does not interpret the Bible the same way yours does. It bothers me that you dismiss any "sect" that doesn't agree with Robert Gagnon's reading of the Bible as wrong.

 

Note that Professor Gagnon's own religion (PCUSA) no longer shares his certainty in the wrongness of homosexuality. Homosexuality seems to be an obsession for him as his CV shows that since 2001 all his published books and articles have been on this subject. Forgive me if I take his writings with a grain of salt.

 

I respect your right to believe what you want to believe and I ask the same of you.

 

Hal

[vol_scouter 365]

Hal,

 

You are doing the same thing. Try reading the book before dismissing it. Maybe he has published more because he has been attacked. Maybe he is right and others do not like the conclusions. Just maybe the attacks have been vicious. Maybe others are wrong and don't want to face it. Maybe they react angrily when others disagree with them. If homosexuality is deemed by a religious group to not be wrong, then why should adultery be wrong? A lot of people engage in adultery. These views are old fashioned. We are more enlightened now. Also, men with additional Y chromosomes are more prone to murder. A clear genetic relationship. So for these people, we should not tell them that murder is wrong because they possess a genetic proclivity that they feel that they should act upon. If some of the Bible is tossed aside, what is to be kept? Who decides? So we are wiser than G_d? As much as I disagree with Merlyn, his belief system makes more sense than picking and choosing what is to be taken seriously in the Bible and what is to be ignored. That elevates man to G_d which is clearly wrong. Just because Gagnon has not changed his position to agree with yours does not make him wrong. If he believes that this is important and wishes to make others aware, does not make his work suspicious. To say something like that would be to say that you disagree with an Egyptologist because they publish primarily about Egyptology and some others do not agree with the conclusions. Newton, Maxwell, Einstein, Bohr, Rutherford, and many others were not considered right by others but were ultimately found to be so. You have not provided an argument but merely said that you reject the argument because you do not like the conclusion.

[Trevorum 24]

I see the Bible as no more of an authority on this issue than the Rig Veda or Dianetics. That argument carries absolutely no weight.

 

(This message has been edited by Trevorum)

[Merlyn_LeRoy 72]

vol_scouter writes:

As much as I disagree with Merlyn, his belief system makes more sense than picking and choosing what is to be taken seriously in the Bible and what is to be ignored. That elevates man to G_d which is clearly wrong.

 

Then I have to ask, vol_scouter, what kind of punishment, if any, do you think the bible requires for homosexuality and/or consensual homosexual acts, and should that be enforced by US law (and if not, why not)?

[evmori 11]

Ed, re-read what you are asking Merlyn for. You want him to prove a negative. You can't do that. If he thinks the Bible isn't clear on the issue, there will be no supporting verse to prove his point. He could produce any random verse that would demonstrate his claim.

 

I not asking anyone to prove a negative, Gern. Merlyn stated the bible is not clear on the issue. All I want to know is where in the Bible it isn't clear. Where are the contradictions?

[packsaddle 753]

I'm surprised that The Scout isn't in on this. But despite what he claimed, I think this is another great demonstration of the way religion does NOT bring people together. Trev, I agree. Moreover, I think Father Reginald Foster, senior Vatican priest, agrees too. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ewTuAeMJbDs

I really like that guy.

[Merlyn_LeRoy 72]

Ed, you still don't understand what I'm saying. I'm merely pointing out that Christians don't agree on what the bible says about homosexuality, therefore the bible is not clear. I'm not referring to ANY specific bible passage, I'm looking at real life results.

[evmori 11]

Ed, you still don't understand what I'm saying. I'm merely pointing out that Christians don't agree on what the bible says about homosexuality, therefore the bible is not clear. I'm not referring to ANY specific bible passage, I'm looking at real life results.

 

Merlyn,

 

I understand exactly what you are saying. You claim the Bible in not clear based on others interpretations of the Bible yet don't have any specific passages that state such.

 

If the Bible is unclear on homosexuality, there has to be conflicting passages, otherwise stating the Bible is unclear on homosexuality is a bogus statement.

[Merlyn_LeRoy 72]

No Ed, you can't understand, and I can't make you understand. Understand?

[packsaddle 753]

Ed, when I was growing up I heard that same argument made by some of my church leaders with regard to race. They argued that the Bible was clear with regard to racial superiority and challenged anyone to provide quotes from the Bible that were not clear on the subject. And no one ever did, at least not to the satisfaction of the racist jerks who thought it was clear. They probably still think that way if they're still alive.

 

But it was an idiotic argument back then. So what makes you think it isn't now? No one is going to find any passage in any book that can, as Gern has noted, support a negative contention. If it isn't clear to Trevorum or to Gern, or to me, or to someone else, then it is incumbent on YOU to show how it IS clear. Not the other way around.

You can repeat your opinion as many times as you want, but it is unlikely to be any more persuasive than it was the first time if you don't provide positive support and explanation for it.