The latest Ask Andy

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

http://netcommish.com/AskAndy144.asp

 

A lot of dancing around the atheist issue, plus as a bonus, after talking about how the BSA excludes atheists (and more dancing around the issue of Jehovah's Witnesses not taking the pledge of allegiance), comes the usual false refrain that "Scouting is FOR ALL BOYS". Maybe the ALL CAPS is supposed to make people forget the BSA's policy of which boys to keep out.

[evmori]

Scouting doesn't exclude atheists. Atheists don't meet the membership requirements. Sure you can state they are excluded, but in reality, you can't be excluded from something you can't join!

[acco40]

Scouting is FOR ALL BOYS. Just, for some boys, Scouting ain't for them. And that's OK, too.

 

Merlyn - I know where you are coming from but what I think "Andy" is trying to communicate is that as a Scoutmaster, we don't go fishing to see what the religious beliefs of the boys are (some do, but that is another story).

 

I think Andy is just spinning another "don't ask, don't tell" type of response. That may frustrate purists - like yourself or hard core religious litmus test scouters - but for the vast majority of pragmatists, it is how we operate.

 

For myself, I don't like the Beavahish quality of Andy's prose but we all have our problems and I guess that is one (of many) of mine.

(This message has been edited by acco40)

[Gold Winger]

I found a discussion about an agnostic but nothing about an atheist. Maybe your link is bad.

 

Thanks.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Hey, more dancing around the atheist issue. It's official policy, except when ignored. Gold Winger, you might want to look up definitions of "atheist" and "agnostic".

[Beavah]

For myself, I don't like the Beavahish quality of Andy's prose

 

 

Nah, acco, Andy doesn't sound at all like me. Besides, I think he's an Antelope. All flighty runnin' around bouncin' up and down across fields while we Beavah's are hardworkin', industrious sorts carin' for our brood.

 

And we're cuter, too.

 

Andy's an interestin' phenomenon of a guy just puttin' out a shingle. I find he blows it almost as often as he gets it right, but if it's helpful to some that's great, eh? Can't say I could make any particular sense out of his agnostic answer, though.

 

Beavah

 

[Gold Winger]

I guess that you don't have a dictionary. Does this help?

 

agnostic (g-nstk) noun

One who believes that there can be no proof of the existence of God but does not deny the possibility that God exists.

 

atheist (th-st) noun

One that disbelieves or denies the existence of God or gods.

 

 

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Oh, I have dictionaries GW, and those are fairly good definitions; but if you'll read Ask Andy (and bsalegal.org), you'll see they aren't using those definitions. There's nothing in the BSA's actual requirements that would exclude an agnostic theist, but they're assuming that all agnostics don't believe in any gods, which is not something that can be assumed. Maybe the BSA could use your dictionary.

[SSScout]

The BSA is a religious organization, by definition. But it is NOT a religion (contrary to how some Scouters may treat their activities!). We've been thru that before.

As to the PoA, it IS a requirement that a Cub Scout needs to KNOW the PoA, but it is NOT a requirement to recite it, if it is counter to their religious belief. I may know the tenets of Das Kapital, but that does not mean I agree with or support it. Jehovah's Witnesses, Quakers, some Mennonite adherents, and other religions have qualms about repeating the PoA and back that up with their faith in a deity that requires them to not worship (pledge loyalty to?) a piece of cloth. This does not mean they do not show respect for the symbol of our nation, only that the saying of something they do not agree with ("trustworthy", frinstance, see also Mat 5:33, lJohn 5:21 and Ps 96:5) is not right.

Loyalty to country ("duty") has never correctly been defined as the mere reciting of any loyalty oath but as demonstrated by ones actions (or lack of?).

I have had very little conversation about anyone not reciting the PoA. It is a non-issue in my experience.

 

Thank you, Andy. It is for all boys who find agreement with Scoutings ideals and program. All food is for all boys, but squash is not for my son. So he says.

 

Thank you, Merlyn, for making us think, but there is no dancing in this one. Only a welcome lack of dogma and some understanding.

 

 

 

[Gold Winger]

" I find he blows it almost as often as he gets it right, but if it's helpful to some that's great, eh?"

 

It could be that he thinks the same of your poorly spelled musings.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Oh sure there's dancing, SSScout. They're trying hard not to enforce the BSA's religious requirements by not looking too hard.

[Gold Winger]

I don't see any dancing either. You must be one of those guys that sees ballet in pedestrians walking down the sidewalk but that's to be expected from someone like you.

[John-in-KC]

First, I saw two letters: One from a boy who believes in God but hasn't connected to organized religion. From a Scouting perspective, nothing wrong there.

 

Then I saw a letter from a Scoutmaster, who had yet to actually get to questions of faith with the boy. Jeez, what are we as unit serving Scouters supposed to do: The Spanish Inquisition? I do not think so.

 

I will say this: I'm going to go an awful long way to help a young man whose faith is still forming... to help him discover what he does and does not believe.

 

- If he finally hits the point where he looks me in the eye and says "God does not exist, and here's why.", then I'm finally going to have to ask him, outright "Is Scouting for you, if we begin the Oath and end the Law with God?"

 

- If he hits the point of "There may be a god, there may not, but you cannot prove it either way" (which GW cited as the definition of agnostic), then I'm finally going to have to ask him, outright "Is Scouting for you, if we begin the Oath and end the Law with God?"

 

Merlyn, a Scouter has to use common sense and compassion in all he does. I'm sorry if you think we should cut a youth member off at the knees the instant he wavers, but I don't read Scouting that way, especially for youth members.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Just compare all the back & forth about someone rumored to be "agnostic", versus someone rumored to be 18 or older. Do you ask him "how old are you?" or do you dance around it and try to get to know him and hope he mentions how old he is at some random time?

 

It'd be more like:

 

Andy, I've heard that one of our Boy Scouts is already 18. What should I do?

 

Andy: Ask him how old he is!

 

But when it comes to a straightforward question like "do you believe in a god?", people run away from the question while repeating the mantra "scouting is FOR ALL BOYS!"

[NJCubScouter]

They're trying hard not to enforce the BSA's religious requirements by not looking too hard.

 

Well, who is "they"? On one hand we have a columnist on an unofficial web site ("Andy") who basically says to leave the Scout alone without knowing whether he actually believes in a higher power or not. On the other hand we have a local professional Scouter (referred to in the Scoutmaster's posts) who wants to kick the kid out -- also without knowing whether he actually believes in a higher power or not. And by the way, says the DE, don't let in members of a group that definitely does believe in a higher power, because he doesn't like the way they practice their religion. And then we have a Scoutmaster who discusses the Scout's situation with the entire world before sitting down and having a conference with the Scout. All in all, I would not say that this is one of the finer moments for the U.S. Scouting Service Project (which is a great site overall.)

 

I think most of it is beside the point anyway. As I understand it, the BSA interprets the Scout Oath and Law to require that a Scout believe in a higher power. Throwing around labels like "atheist" and "agnostic", that have more than one definition and whose definitions are often misunderstood (including, quite often, by teenagers who apply such labels to themselves), only confuses the issue.(This message has been edited by njcubscouter)