Religious Organization?

[Eamonn]

A question to those who know more about this kind of thing than I do.

What would happen if the BSA were to come out and state that it was a religious organization?

(I'm not saying it should, just asking how things might change?)

Eamonn.

[Lisabob]

Depends. Would anything else change, or would this be a simple public statement, still totally up to the units to either do something with, or ignore (ie, pretty much the way this is up to most units now)? Would non-religious groups still be COs? Would leaders have to meet some sort of faith test other than the DRP? For that matter, would the DRP be made more prominent so new leaders were more clearly aware of it? Would there be more explicitly religious material in rank advancements? Would it be non-denominational or not? And so on.

 

My take is that if the BSA simply said "We're a non-denominational religious organization" and didn't change the program or the way leaders and COs are selected and registered, that we would see a brief ripple of discussion and that would be that. On paper the BSA is a religious organization already.

[Beavah]

Yah, it has, eh?

 

One of da things where Merlyn has a point (gosh, did I really say that? ) is that in court filings different places da BSA has tried to have its cake and eat it, too. IIRC, in a number of cases involving our membership policy, we have out and out declared to be a religious organization seeking First Amendment protection. In a number of other cases involving access, we have claimed not to be a religious organization.

 

I understand, but really dislike, that kind of lawyering.

 

Formally being a religious organization makes da membership argument more moot. But a religious organization doesn't necessarily get the U.S. Army to host its Big Event every four years, eh?

 

Beavah

 

[John-in-KC]

B,

 

Gotcha.

 

E and L,

 

I'm not sure I want the BSA to overtly say "We're a religious organization" to the open public. You open a humongous can of worms with that statement... with everything from can Muslim youth be in the same unit as Jewish youth, to what about the Catholics and the Missouri Synod Lutherans?

 

I think we'd see denominations in the US asking a lot of questions about faith doctrine of BSA. I know my church (Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod) actively discourages its membership from Promise Keepers. Might LC-MS withdraw support from BSA? Dunno...

 

I really, really, really do not want to go down this rabbit hole...

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

What do you mean "would happen"? That's what the BSA said years ago. That's what courts have stated, such as in the Balboa Park case. That's what the BSA's own lawyers say on the official BSA website:

http://www.bsalegal.org/city-sold-out-scouts-214.asp

The City Council Sold Out the Boy Scouts

By George A. Davidson

...

Indeed, in February 2003, the city agreed with the Boy Scouts in documents submitted to the court that while Boy Scouts is not a religion and is completely nonsectarian, Boy Scouts is a religious organization.

...

Davidson, of Hughes Hubbard & Reed LLP, is legal counsel for Boy Scouts of America and Desert Pacific Council, Boy Scouts of America

 

 

 

[packsaddle]

Here's the quote from the Kansas case in 1998, from the BSA attorney:

"Although Boy Scouts of America is not a religious sect, it is religious, and, while the local council is not a house of worship like a church or a synagogue, it is a religious organization."

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

It's way to late not to go down that rabbit hole. Do you realize that the long form of the Declaration of Religious Principle contains religious statements (religious statements that not all religions agree upon)? Do you realize that all of the reasons given in court for excluding gays are essentially religious? It's because gays aren't "clean" or "morally straight". Wiccans are prevented from having a recognized religious award because they are looked down upon by the BSA religious committee. And see if the BSA will allow changing the wording of 'duty to god' to 'gods' or 'allah'.

[Eamonn]

Merlyn,

Strange you should mention the Balboa Park case.

While my thinking might very well be flawed.

Sometime back I remember watching a web-cast of part of the proceedings. It seemed to me that had the BSA been a religious organization, maybe something like the Catholic Charities who do have a lease,that maybe the BSA might have been treated differently?

As I say I really don't know and other than wanting to find out, I don't have any hidden agenda or thoughts.

Eamonn.

 

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

If the BSA had called itself a religious organization from the outset, it would have been more obvious that the city couldn't award them a no-bid contract for 18 acres of city property. As it was, once the judge found that the BSA was a religious organization, the city's handpicking of the BSA for the lease made it a first amendment violation.

[Trevorum]

I've no problem with BSA declaring itself to be a religious organization. The issue, as I see it, is BSA's claim to be "non-sectarian" while at the same time making specific items of theological dogma as membership requirements. As we have discussed here before, many devoutly religious people do not believe in a supreme being. Belief in the western notion of monotheistic god is not an element of many faiths.

 

I think this whole situation is a result of BSA policy makers - none of whom evidently knew much about religious diversity - trying to reverse engineer the DRP. It won't work, but no one wants to admit that because they have gone so far down the religious path already. We are stuck with a white elephant in the middle of the room. (No disrepect meant to Ganesha!)

[Bob White]

What percentage of the worlds population has a monotheistic belief?

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Well Bob, that's something of a subjective question, since e.g. some Jehovah's Witnesses consider trinitarians to be polytheists, but counting even trinitarians as monotheists and no Hindus or Buddhists or "non-religious" as monotheists (even though that's not always correct), but counting "other religions" as all monotheist (which is also not always correct) and Jews (ditto), the CIA world factbook comes up with almost exactly 2/3rds of the world's population as monotheist (66.81%) and the rest as not.

 

What's your point?

[Gold Winger]

"And see if the BSA will allow changing the wording of 'duty to god' to 'gods' or 'allah'."

 

They do, although in my opinion, English speaking Muslims insisting on saying Allah is as absurd as me saying "Bozeh" because that's what my ancestors said. They're like the Linux weenies who revel in their differences.

[Lisabob]

ah, nothing like tolerance of others' religious beliefs.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Gold Winger, where does the BSA officially state that "duty to god" can be changed to "duty to gods" or "duty to allah" or whatever? The Girl Scouts have an asterisk by the word "god" in their promise, with a footnote stating that the word can be changed to something else. I haven't found anything like that for the BSA.

 

Note that the actual practices by individual troops don't count, as there are troops that also allow gays and/or atheists to join, even though that isn't official BSA policy.