"Rule of 25" and Religious Emblems

[packsaddle]

Dan, I understand what you say but I want to let you know, in spite of it all, you and yours are welcome at our campfire any time. Sometimes people can't empathize until they've walked that mile in someone else's shoes.

Back in the early '50s my family took a 6-week camping trip around the continent. One of my vivid memories was a night of fun with a bunch of other kids around a campfire at a wayside beside the Columbia River. There were numerous other families camped there as well. And my family shared the hatred some people showed to those other families, our car and tent were vandalized during the night, just like the rest of them. The other children merely shrugged, they said it happened to them a lot. I think about that often. They were, I think, what some might have called, "gypsies", but in fact were just poor people who traveled to find migrant work.

I was already familiar with prejudice, growing up in the South, and this showed me it wasn't merely a matter of skin color but of any difference that a prejudiced person can identify. What a shame.

[SSScout]

Ladeeeees and Geeeentlmen...

 

The main event!

 

In this corner, at mmnteinmte pounds, the judeo-Christian traditionalists...

 

And in this corner, the all-inclusionists...

 

And in THIS corner, the any-religion-see-the-dictionary-definitionists....

 

AND in THIS corner, the Baden-Powell Nature-as-religion-Practical-Christianityists...

 

And in this other corner, various Scout masters and Cubmasters just trying to teach Scouting to boys while not being terribly interested in the boys personal beliefs...

 

This will be 15 rounds, no holds bared. Logic, faith exposition, sacred text quotating and personal revelation will be allowed. Now, when you hear the bell, I want you to come to the center of the ring and ...oh heck, keep doing what ever it is you do. We'll sort it out eventually.

 

And may the boys win...

[epalmer84]

> It would be a lot easier and probably more consistent with the heritage of our country if the BSA only recognized Judeo-Christian Emblems and COs.

 

Actually, it would be easier if we did not have a religious program at all. But, our purpose is not to take the easy path, but to try to do what is only right. We have to balance our heritage with the realities of today- and that includes the bald fact that other religions are growing rapidly in this country.

 

---

DanKroh: Here is the whole entry from the LoS:

 

American Indian: This term is preferred to "Native American" when referring to indigenous people of the continental United States. "Native American" more generally applies to also include native peoples of the Hawaiian Islands, Alaska, Puerto Rico, and Guam. When possible, be precise and use the name of a specific tribe.

 

If you read the other article link, there is a lot of back and forth on the naming issue.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

epalmer84 writes:

Merlyn: I would be interested in any information you might have on specific Wiccan groups such as CoG that were denied a charter.

 

Here are some usenet posts from the mid 1990s from people involved:

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.pagan/msg/f847486d38ad6e28

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.pagan/msg/a0b073fea9518832

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.scouting/msg/104d8803c02b1cac

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.scouting/msg/4ec979ca61b85b38

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.scouting/msg/956607499541118d

[DanKroh]

Merlyn, thanks for those links. Very interesting stuff, especially this excerpt from a letter to CoG from the National office:

 

"Let me assure you that it was not my intention to offend you or anyone of

your faith. After further discussion, the Boy Scouts of America still

respectfully declines your request to become a chartering organization.

 

Thank you for your interest. However, we feel that no useful purpose

would be served by continuing this dialogue.

 

Very truly yours,

 

Donald L. Townsend, Director

Relationships Division"

 

Well, there it is.

[DanKroh]

Packsaddle, thank you for your kind words.

 

It is people like you and other individuals I've encountered in scouting (particulary in my local units) who go beyond "tolerance" to true acceptance of the differences of others that make me continue to believe in the principles that scouting is supposed to be based on, even when the national organization doesn't follow those principles in their own actions.

[packsaddle]

OK, The Scout, here are a few tidbits from our founding fathers, regarding our alleged 'heritage':

 

Jefferson, "To talk of immaterial existences is to talk of 'nothings'. To say that the human soul, angels, god, are immaterial is to say they are nothings, or that there is no god, no angels, no soul. I cannot reason otherwise...without plunging into the fathomless abyss of dreams and phantasms. I am satisfied, and sufficiently occupied with the things which are, without tormenting or troubling myself about those which may indeed be, but of which I have no evidence."

 

And another from Jefferson, "Shake off all the fears of servile prejudices, under which weak minds are servilely crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call on her tribunal for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear."

 

And another, "Christianity is the most perverted system that ever shone on man"

 

Or Madison: "During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution."

 

Or Adams: "This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it." then, "As I understand the Christian religion, it was, and is, a revelation. But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legends, have been blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed?" and then, "I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved - the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!"

 

I can give you more if you're interested. Oh, what the heck, I'll throw a few more in just for the halibut;):

 

Jefferson, "Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can be acted upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus."

 

or, employing the forementioned ridicule, "The Christian God is a being of terrific character - cruel, vindictive, capricious and unjust."

 

or, remarking on the university he founded, "A professorship of theology should have no place in our institution."

 

or, "The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as his father, in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter."

 

and again, "The priests of the different religious sects...dread the advance of science as witches do the approach of daylight, and scowl on the fatal harbinger announcing the subdivision of the duperies on which they live."

 

Man, why can't I think of stuff like this?

[TheScout]

Packsaddle, it is a shame that you seem to take so much joy ridiculing Christianity.

 

 

The general principles upon which the Fathers achieved independence were the general principals of Christianity I will avow that I believed and now believe that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God. [July 4th] ought to be commemorated as the day of deliverance by solemn acts of devotion to God Almighty.

John Adams in a letter written to Abigail on the day the Declaration was approved by Congress

 

" Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime and pure...are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments." -John Carrol, signer of the Declaration of Independence [source: To James McHenry on November 4, 1800.]

 

It cannot be emphasized too clearly and too often that this nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religion, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason, peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here. -Patrick Henry [May 1765 Speech to the House of Burgesses]

 

"To the distinguished character of patriot, it should be our highest glory to add the more distinguished character of Christian" -George Washington [May 2, 1778, at Valley Forge]

 

I won't go on.

[LongHaul]

Lately I have been trying to reflect on what Scouter Terry said and make my last post my final one. I read what others say, write thoughtful replies and then unless that reply is purely informational or in direct response to the original question I delete it unsent. The hardest to do is in regard to the Politics and War thread but Im holding my own. I think I should post this anyway. I support the acceptance of CoG as COs.

 

IMO If we are to live according to any religious principle then we must live together in peace. I took a class in comparative religions 30+ years ago but it think it is still accurate in the fact that NO religious principle on this planet advocates war, murder, or persecution of ones neighbor. The current conflict between factions in the Middle East is among men not religious principle. Those doing the fighting believe it is about religion but never get past one mans interpretation as apposed to another mans interpretation. The religious writing they refer to does not say And you shall kill all those who do not believe. Until we love our neighbor we will not truly be in concordance with our faith.

 

When anyone speaks of this Nation being founded upon Christian principles, being raised Christian, I must object. Forgetting the Old Testament and that part about not coveting ones neighbors house and such; lets just look at the teachings of Christ. The thread which runs though all of his teaching is that we must love one another. Turn the other cheek and stop the violence. How can that be reconciled with the manner in which the founders of this Nation treated the American Indian and the slaves they bought and sold? Is the measure of a mans principles what comes out of his mouth or what is done by his hand? I fail to see how this Country was built upon the teachings of the Bible or of Christ.

 

With respect to BSA we have much the same conditions, intolerance and bigotry. When we say National we often forget just who or what is National. When we say National usually we mean some board of appointed or elected members who form policy. Just who makes up these boards and how are they elected or appointed? Chartering Organizations make up the bulk of the voting members. The more units chartered by any one entity the more votes that entity will have. Churches and Religious Organizations are responsible for most of our Chartering Organizations today. They presumable vote based on what is best for the boys and the organization. What do they use as a base in making that decision? Picture Dana Carvey dressed as the church lady when I ask Could it be Religion?"

 

National because of what they are, largely representatives of an established religion, will fight the admission and legitimization of opposing groups as a matter of principle. They cant drop the DRP. They cant accept homosexuals. They cant accept those that dont believe in a God. Trying to oust those already in the door such as Buddhists, Zoroastrians and the like would draw way to much opposition and attention but allowing more in or legitimizing new factions is another matter. If National were to allow CoG to sponsor units, National would in fact be saying that CoG represents values in keeping with those of National. The Church of the Latter Day Saints, the Roman Catholic Church, the Southern Baptists saying Its OK to be a Witch?

LongHaul

 

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Maybe the BSA should become a non-sectarian organization.

[TheScout]

Or a Judeo-Christian one.

[DanKroh]

"Or a Judeo-Christian one."

 

Why stop there? Why not kick out the Jews, too? After all, aren't they still following the wrong religion? Why is their "wrong" religion more acceptable than any of the other "wrong" alternatives?

[TheScout]

There must be a line drawn somewhere. It is easy to say every faith is right and equal, but they are not.

 

In one of his greatest lines, President Bush told the scouts at the 2005 National Jamboree:

 

"Always remember where you come from and what you believe. At times, you may come across people who say that moral truth is relative, or call a religious faith a comforting allusion. They may question the values you learn in scouting. But remember, lives of purpose are constructed on the conviction there is right and there is wrong, and we can know the difference"

 

It is always hard to say where to draw the line. Especially in this society where nobody likes to tell anybody else they are wrong. But one thing I will tell you for sure is the witches or Wiccan or whatever you wish to call them do not belong in scouting.

 

One of the things that makes scouting special to me is that it has stuck to its principles over the past decades when so many organizations have folded their hand to the cause of moral relativism.

[DanKroh]

"But one thing I will tell you for sure is the witches or Wiccan or whatever you wish to call them do not belong in scouting."

 

Well, then, I'll just thank all my Gods that you are not the one who gets to decide to kick me and my kids out of scouting.

[Trevorum]

TheScout,

I believe you have been gravely misinformed about what Scouting is all about. It is NOT, and never has been, a Judeo-Christian club. Should you wish to associate only with persons of your own religion, there are many options for you. In contrast, Scouting welcomes people of all faiths. Are you familiar with the official BSA policy statement on this matter? "BSA does not define what constitutes belief in God or the practice of religion."

 

I strongly suspect that you don't know much about Wicca other that what you've been told by other Christians. Please know that the ethical principles of Wicca and other Earth based pagan faiths are 100% in alignment with BSA. I am glad our troop has a Wiccan family. And Hindus, and Muslims, and Mormons, and Jews. And UUs.