religion as a core component of the BSA

[Lisabob 13]

Thinking about the "core" of the BSA program. In another thread someone made the excellent point that, while the BSA as an organization may view religious duty as a key aspect of its program, in practice many units do not emphasize this. And while many individual members and some followers of the BSA in the broader society are aware of the official stance on religion, probably many more people are unaware. I know that when my son brought home the flyer from school and asked to join cub scouts, I had no idea about this, and I grew up in a scouting family. Nor did the pack my son was in push religion. I did learn more about this when I attended leader training but even there, it was given very little attention.

 

Over the years I have come to know most of the packs and troops in our area and I would say at least half make no serious mention of religion in their program and more or less follow a "don't ask, don't tell" type of policy. Of the other half, a few are overtly affiliated with a specific religious group and make that part of their program and most of the rest just include an attempt at non-denominational awareness in ways that could hardly be considered as being at the "core" of their program (such as using the scout sign of benediction at the end of meetings).

 

So this leaves me wondering. If the BSA is serious about the importance of religion - whatever religion - in the lives of its members, why isn't earning a religious emblem a requirement? Most religions have established emblems already. And a requirement could be worded in such a way that a boy need not earn the emblem of his particular faith (broader religious understanding, in itself, could be valuable as a tool toward understanding one's own faith). For those religions that do not have a program, they could certainly be invited to develop one.

 

Moreover, at least in the Cub program, the Wolf, Bear, and Webelos ranks include an explicit religious component (I don't know if Tigers does?). But in Boy Scouts, rank advancement does not include such an explicit component. In SM Conferences and BORs (even Eagle BORS) we *might* ask about that part of the Scout Oath, or the word "reverent" in the Scout Law, but this varies greatly across units and hardly comprises a requirement. My experience with Eagle BORs is more limited but so far, the only time the subject of religion has come up has been when the boy raised it. This seems odd to me since the discussions about religion and scouting often are more intense when we talk about troops than about cub scouts. (I admit I don't know whether there is any religious element in Crew, Ship, or Team recognitions. But again, if religion is a core part of the BSA then I would expect this to carry over across all programs.)

 

The fact that most of us acknowledge how unevenly the religious aspect of the BSA program is applied, and that especially at the troop level, there's no specific religious requirement to advancement, seems to suggest that maybe the BSA isn't that serious about the role of religion in its core values. This leaves one wondering whether the BSA just leaves that bit of the membership requirements in place to appease conservative supporters. Whatever one's beliefs are, I hate to think that any organization would use religion in such a cynical way, but I imagine you can see where such a conclusion might be drawn.

 

 

[Beavah 205]

Yah, interestin' thoughts, Lisa'bob.

 

I agree with your observations. I think most scouting volunteers fall in line with the American cultural norm where Religion is a Taboo Topic. I suspect that mentality goes right up the chain. As just another example, we have 1st Class Scouts meet with a judge, attorney, or public official to discuss their Duty to Country (rights and responsibilities as a citizen), but we never have 'em meet with a religious figure of their choice to discuss their Duty to God.

 

Personally, I think our unwillingness to talk openly and frankly about religion impoverishes kids, and perpetuates sectarian strife and prejudices. I'd like to see there be some requirements. It's just hard to overcome the social taboo. Yah, there will always be those who interpret or execute the requirement poorly. Same as anything. But faith is an important part of our world, and another thing that they won't get any introduction to in school.

 

[GernBlansten 10]

Yup, no merit badges either that deal with religion.

No obvious reference to religion in rank advancement either. Just follow the scout oath and law. For an organization that is perceived to be religion centric, they sure don't make their members prove it.

 

If BSA didn't restrict the membership of atheists/agnostics, religion would be just another facet of the program if the unit wished to emphasize it. The ACLU wouldn't have a dog in the fight. Some units emphasize the uniform, some advancement, some leadership, some adventure, some religion. Some a mixture of all of the above.

 

In my unit religion is just not our focus. Adventure, leadership, advancement, friendship is. We have a couple of evangelical adults who like to close meetings with prayers. That's fine with us. They keep it simple and quick. Duty to God comes up in BORs.

 

Perhaps its just my upbringing as a mid-western rural Lutheran. Religion and politics were just not spoken beyond your immediate family.

[CalicoPenn 729]

Good question, Lisa. I'm going to take a guess at the answer - I think it's a good guess based on what we know about the BSA'a advancement program - feel free to disagree.

 

My guess as to why the BSA doesn't require its Scouts to earn a religious award is because there is no uniformity in the various religious awards. Each denomination runs their own awards program and sets up the requirements for their specific award.

 

We know that according to the advancement policies of the BSA, no person or Council may add or subtract requirements from ranks and merit badges. This rule exists to make sure there is uniformity in the awarding of ranks and merit badges. A Scout earning the First Aid Merit Badge in California will have had to pass the same requirements as a Scout in New Jersey. No regional or local variations - just like McDonalds - a Big Mac in Alaska looks and tastes the same as a Big Mac in Florida (Hmmmm - how long has the BSA had these rules, anyway - could Ray Kroc have gotten his inspiration from the Scouts?)

 

Since all Scouts must follow the same rules for rank and merit badges, it makes sense (to me) that the BSA wouldn't require earning a religious award since all Scouts will be following different rules for their specific religious awards. Some religious awards are more difficult to earn than others - therefore the playing field isn't level.

 

It's unlikely that the BSA would want to try to develop it's own religious award for all Scouts to earn. Given the diversity of religions in Scouts, it would likely cause a large drop-off in membership (no matter how you develop it, you're probably going to offend everyone).

 

Calico

[gwd-scouter 11]

Beavah wrote "Personally, I think our unwillingness to talk openly and frankly about religion impoverishes kids, and perpetuates sectarian strife and prejudices."

 

I agree with you Beavah, unfortunately I have personal experience that open discussions of religion, at least in my neck of the woods, can lead to serious fallout.

 

First, I will admit to being brought up Catholic, but I do not attend any particular church or subscribe to a particular brand of religion. This doesn't sit well here in the South! I don't profess to not believe in God, just don't believe in the God being described by the organized religions.

 

I will also admit that this is the feeling of most of the adult leaders in our Troop and many of the Scouts. On the other hand, we have a fairly vocal group of Scouts and Parents that are fully behind the "Jesus is your personal savior, and if you aren't saved you're going to Hell" crowd. Nothing wrong with that if it's your belief. But, that kind of announcement at a campfire among a bunch of youthful Scouts can lead to an uproar.

 

So, on a campout about a year ago, the Scouts began discussing religion. I saw nothing wrong in their free exchange of ideas and actually was impressed at their level of ideas at such young ages. Most guys were in the middle somewhere in their beliefs but we had two on the very fundamentalist side, one bordering on atheism and one self-proclaimed Wiccan.

 

Heated debate to be sure and eventually I changed the subject.

 

Cut to the following Monday after our Scout meeting. Dad of one of the fundamentalist Scouts came to our meeting, waited until it was over, and then blasted away at me in the parking lot in view of his sons. He said the BSA was a Christian Organization and I had no right to allow any discussion of religion other than Christianity. He said that he knew for sure that some of the ideas being espoused during the campfire were not those of our Chartered Organization. True I said, but our Chartered Organization has never said our Troop had to fall in with their teachings and beliefs. I mentioned that while Scouting had a component of faith it was not solely a Christian Organization and that I was planning to continue to support the idea that the Boys in our Troop could follow their own (family's) beliefs - even talk about them if they wanted to.

 

He then said he wanted me to make a statement to the Troop (Scouts and Parents) acknowledging that we (mostly meaning I) was not representative of the Christian philosophy behind both the BSA and our Chartered Organization. I agreed to make a statement about the campfire and that the beliefs expressed by some were not consistent with our CO. But, I also told him that I was not going to say that those were inconsistent with the BSA.

 

The meeting came. His wife was there and both of his sons, along with most of our other Scouts. In my SM Minute I mentioned that I had been requested by a parent to talk about the campfire, the debate over religion and the beliefs of our CO (I did not mention who that parent was). Basically it came down to me saying that while our CO may be a Baptist Church, it has not made it a requirement that the adults or Scouts must be members. I also said that while the BSA does have "Duty to God" it very clearly states that the BSA will not define how a Scout must believe in God or which God. Lastly, I reminded the Scouts and adults present that no one in our troop would be prohibited from speaking his mind or following his own beliefs.

 

On a side note: While that Dad was blasting away at me in the parking lot, I must admit to feeling very proud that I kept my cool. It made him seem more unreasonable the more he talked. When he said, "I'm sure you think this is all very trivial since you don't believe in God," I admit I almost lost it. His statement isn't actually true, but I felt I would not get anywhere with him if I proceeded to defend myself. I simply said that no, I did not think it was trivial at all and that while I appreciated him bringing his concerns to me, I would follow my own conscience and the requirements of the BSA.

 

In the end, I asked if he felt so strongly about this if he thought perhaps I was not the kind of SM he wanted for his boys. Both his sons looked rather stricken when I said that. To his credit, his sons remain in our troop.

 

[Hunt 11]

I think this is a good discussion. Even if we accept that BSA has the right to make Duty to God a core element of the program, has it actually done so (beyond just saying so)? Should it do more, or less, in that regard? I think it's true that to do more is difficult if BSA intends to remain strictly non-sectarian. To do less, quite honestly, would mean dropping the requirement for a belief in God.

[emb021 16]

A problem I see with requiring the earning of religious awards, apart from the issue of the differences between many, is that

 

1) not all religious groups have them.

2) what do you do about youth who are not a member of an organized religion? There is no requirement that youth be a member of an formal religious group.

 

 

Duty to God has been one of the 3 fundamental principles of Scouting. We see this in elements such as the Scout Oath and Law. But we must balance that with the fact that our members come from a wide range of religious beliefs.

 

 

While merit badges don't touch on religion, take a look at Venturing's Religious Life Bronze and TRUST Award.

 

[Lisabob 13]

A couple of additional thoughts.

 

1) There's no question in my mind that a significant religious requirement for boy scouts advancement could be devised in a non-sectarian manner. We already have this in the cub program.

 

If you haven't looked at them in a while, I'd encourage you to revisit the Wolf, Bear, and Webelos religious requirements. These are not optional and while (like any requirement) they could be fudged, they're actually fairly detailed - especially the webelos one.

 

I know this isn't an "official" link but I've always found it to be handy when talking about Cub requirements, so here's a link to the Virtual Cub Leader's Handbook list of Wolf/Bear/Webelos advancement requirements as they pertain to religion.

 

Wolf Achievement 11: http://www.geocities.com/~pack215/wolf.html#GOD

 

Bear Achievements 1 & 2: http://www.geocities.com/~pack215/bear.html#GOD

 

Webelos Requirements (scroll to #8): http://www.geocities.com/~pack215/webelos.html

 

2) While it is true that some of the religious emblem programs are more complex than others, so what. Make the requirement something similar to the current Webelos requirement, EITHER that a boy discuss the meaning of faith with his family in some significant way OR that a boy must earn ONE religious emblem. Don't specify which one, or that it must be from "your" faith. Even if all the boys gravitate toward the "easiest" one, at least they're given a structured opportunity to discuss religious matters with (hopefully) their families and some religious leaders in the process.

 

Probably most boys/families would choose their own faith's emblem. Great. Some would seek out information about other faiths. Nothing wrong with that either. Those who grow up in a non-religious family would have an opportunity to explore what faith means to them. Also a net positive.

 

Constructing an either/or option allows for boys whose religions do not have an emblem and whose parents don't want them exploring another religion's beliefs, to meet the requirement too.

 

In case anyone should mistake my purpose here - it isn't to force any particular religion down anyone's throats, nor is it to force religion out of the BSA. But the current approach where religion is considered "core" and yet isn't reflected in a meaningful way in large parts of the BSA program, is illogical and ought to be reconsidered. While I'm in agreement with Hunt that doing any less than what's now in place logically means dropping the membership requirement entirely, I also think what we have in place now effectively makes the requirement meaningless except as an optional part (not the "core) of the program, or except for its propaganda value. I find that last possibility to be odious.

 

 

[mtm25653 10]

Our troop may be a little unusual for the rural South, but we have Catholic, Protestant, Jewish and Moslem scouts (and a Buddhist leader). At the request of the PLC, some of the adults of different faiths are working on a program to present at several meetings about different faiths. I think my boys have been fortunate to be exposed to people with many different beliefs and traditions. Both our local troops (and both packs) have a large number of boys earning their religious award.

 

I have had to speak to people at a couple camporees, when the ministers who came to speak at the Sunday service had what amounted to an altar call. The ministers (usually a youth minister not involved in scouting) didn't get why there was a problem, but I think the message has gotten through to the district people who plan the camporee.

[emb021 16]

I've been involved with scouting since I was a cub scout. From that time to this, religion as always been clear to me as a core component (duty to god, scout is reverant), but a compenent that has been moderated by the fact that all religions must be respected.

 

What I have seen is that if you have a scout event that goes into Sunday, there is a religious service. This is usually fairly non-denominational, in some cases even including reading of passages from many religions, including non-judeochristian ones. Pushing a particular faith was never acceptable. I've also never seen an attitude that everyone must be present at said services.

 

I've seen this attitude at many events I attend in Florida, and around the country. While there may be some units, especially those chartered to certain religious groups, which may be more religious, and there are some scouting events which are more explicitly religious (and its obvious they would be, say aimed at scouts or units of a particular regligous group or the like), I've always taken that as the norm.

 

 

[LongHaul 10]

I don't see the problem with the fact that different faiths would have different requirements for their particular badge. Cub Scouts have had religious requirements right along. Webelos Badge requirement 8 gives the option of earning the religious badge of your faith and provides a number of alternate religiously based options for those that dont, cant, or already have earned it . I think it isn't a matter of uniformity as much as it is a matter of religion never having been a Boy Scout requirement and adding it now would seem like another attempt to placate the religious right. Why BP didnt choose to include religion in his original publications is a good question. Maybe some of our historians can answer it for us.

LongHaul

 

[packsaddle 753]

Calico, I have to report from personal experience that a Big Mac most certainly does NOT taste the same when comparing Alaska, China, Russia, various places in Europe, and the good ol' South. Especially the one in Hong Kong, I'm sorry - that just wasn't a Big Mac.

 

Gwd_scouter, I commend your patience and restraint in that situation. There was nothing to be gained by going off on him. He vented and you've expressed a reasonable response. In case you haven't read anything by Sam Harris, here's the way he started his little book, 'Letter to a Christian Nation', you might enjoy reading it:

"Thousands of people have written to tell me that I am wrong not to believe in God. The most hostile of these communications have come from Christians. This is ironic, as Christians generally imagine that no faith imparts the virtues of love and forgiveness more effectively than their own. The truth is that many who claim to be transformed by Christs love are deeply, even murderously, intolerant of criticism. While we may want to ascribe this to human nature, it is clear that such hatred draws considerable support from the Bible. How do I know this? The most disturbed of my correspondents always cite chapter and verse."

You can read the whole book in an hour or so. He's a bit edgy but his points are interesting.

BTW, in response to something you said in another thread, I think about a commercial about insomnia in which a woodchuck looks up from the chessboard and says, "Kirk cheats". And then Spock responds, "Hellooooo!"

 

I also think Lisabob makes good points regarding the difference between the BSA national legal stance and the actual application by units. I suppose that local option is alive and well after all. It is the way this unit executes the program but then, there's that guy. He comes on campus once in a while and yells at everyone, bible in hand. According to him we're all going to hell anyway. Fascinating.

[John-in-KC 311]

LH,

 

I'm not a historian, but from what I've seen, B-P accounted faith as something the family and the Scout were responsible for, not the unit.

 

I'll see if I can dredge up some quotes from "Footsteps of the Founder" which discuss this.

 

As to the debate, I'll say this: Within my home church, I've offered to Pastor that I'll make sure any Boy or Girl Scout going through confirmation gets taken care of for their religious award for Scouting. While I'd LIKE the National Advancement Committee to add "Earn your faith specific/age specific religious award" to the requirements for First Class, I'm not holding my breath. I'm just happy that the 3 Scouts in my sons' confirmation class earned their awards on the trail!

[epalmer84 10]

> "Earn your faith specific/age specific religious award" to the requirements for First Class, I'm not holding my breath. I'm just happy that the 3 Scouts in my sons'

 

As noted earlier, not all groups have religious awards recognized by the BSA. Off the top of my head, Sikh, Shinto and Wicca do not have recognized programs (do I dare mention UUA).

 

I do think something like Religious Awareness would be a great program. It could involve learning more about your own religion, learning about another person's religion and learning about other religions in your community, state, country and around the world.

 

Ed

[LongHaul 10]

OK so your particular faith does not have a religious award how about and either or like with Eagle required merit badges. Something along the lines of the Webelos Badge requirements.

 d. Do two of these:

 Attend the mosque, church, synagogue, temple, or other religious organization of your choice, talk with your religious leader about your beliefs. Tell your family and your Webelos den leader what you learned.

 Discuss with your family and Webelos den leader how your religious beliefs fit in with the Scout Oath and Scout Law, and what character-building traits your religious beliefs have in common with the Scout Oath and Scout Law.

 With your religious leader, discuss and make a plan to do two things you think will help you draw nearer to God. Do these things for a month.

 For at least a month, pray or meditate reverently each day as taught by your family, and by your church, temple, mosque, synagogue, or religious group.

 Under the direction of your religious leader, do an act of service for someone else. Talk about your service with your family and Webelos den leader. Tell them how it made you feel.

 List at least two ways you believe you have lived according to your religious beliefs.

The question of this thread as I see it is; Duty to God is a core value of the program why isnt it addressed in any requirement for any rank within the Boy Scout program? We address every other core value at some point in rank advancement. Seems conspicuous by its absence.

LongHaul