Science, 'frauds' trigger a decline in atheism

[Rooster7 11]

From the Washington Times:

 

By Uwe Siemon-Netto

UNITED PRESS INTERNATIONAL

 

GURAT, France Godlessness is in trouble, according to a growing consensus among philosophers, intellectuals and scholars.

"Atheism as a theoretical position is in decline worldwide," Munich theologian Wolfhart Pannenberg said in an interview.

His Oxford colleague Alister McGrath agrees.

Atheism's "future seems increasingly to lie in the private beliefs of individuals rather than in the great public domain it once regarded as its habitat," Mr. McGrath wrote in the U.S. magazine, Christianity Today.

Two developments are plaguing atheism these days. One is that it appears to be losing its scientific underpinnings.

The other is the historical experience of hundreds of millions of people worldwide that atheists are in no position to claim the moral high ground.

British philosopher Anthony Flew, once as hard-nosed a humanist as any, has turned his back on atheism, saying it is impossible for evolution to account for the fact that one single cell can carry more data than all the volumes of the Encyclopedia Britannica.

Mr. Flew still does not accept the God of the Bible.

But he has embraced the concept of intelligent design a stunning desertion of a former intellectual ambassador of secular humanism to the belief in some form of intelligence behind the design of the universe.

A few years ago, European scientists snickered when studies in the United States for example, at Harvard and Duke universities showed a correlation between faith, prayer and recovery from illness.

Now 1,200 studies at research centers around the world have come to similar conclusions, according to "Psychologie Heute," a German journal, citing, for example, the marked improvement of multiple sclerosis patients in Germany's Ruhr District because of "spiritual resources."

Atheism's other Achilles' heels are the acts on inhumanity and lunacy committed in its name.

"With time, [atheism] turned out to have just as many frauds, psychopaths and careerists as religion does. ... With Stalin and Madalyn Murray O'Hair, atheism seems to have ended up mimicking the vices of the Spanish Inquisition and the worst televangelists, respectively," Mr. McGrath wrote in Christianity Today.

The Rev. Paul M. Zulehner, dean of Vienna University's divinity school and one of the world's most distinguished sociologists of religion, said atheists in Europe have become "an infinitesimally small group."

"There are not enough of them to be used for sociological research," he said.

Mr. Zulehner cautioned, however, that the decline of atheism in Europe does not mean that re-Christianization is taking place.

"What we are observing instead is a re-paganization," he said.

The Rev. Gerald McDermott, an Episcopal priest and professor of religion and philosophy at Roanoke College in Salem, Va., said a similar phenomenon is taking place in the United States.

"The rise of all sorts of paganism is creating a false spirituality that proves to be a more dangerous rival to the Christian faith than atheism," he said.

After all, a Satanist is also "spiritual."

Mr. Pannenberg, a Lutheran, praised the Roman Catholic Church for handling this peril more wisely than many of his fellow Protestants.

"The Catholics stick to the central message of Christianity without making any concessions in the ethical realm," he said, referring to issues such as same-sex "marriages" and abortion.

In a similar vein, Mr. Zulehner, a Catholic, sees Christianity's greatest opportunity when its message addresses two seemingly irreconcilable quests of contemporary humanity the quest for freedom and truth.

"Christianity alone affirms that truth and God's dependability are inseparable properties to which freedom is linked." As for the "peril of spirituality," Mr. Zulehner sounded quite sanguine.

He concluded from his research that in the long run, the survival of worldviews should be expected to follow this lineup: "The great world religions are best placed," he said.

As a distant second he sees the diffuse forms of spirituality. Atheism, he said, will come in at the tail end.

 

[Merlyn_LeRoy 72]

Hmm, quoting a newspaper owned by the Rev. Sun Myung Moon (Washington Post) and a news service owned by the Rev. Sun Myung Moon (UPI).

 

So, rooster7, do you think the Rev. Sun Myung Moon is the new messiah?

 

Oddly enough, the Moonie paper published a slightly different version a bit earlier:

http://www.washtimes.com/upi-breaking/20050301-123015-2069r.htm

 

It's nearly identical, but they removed this paragraph:

 

Writes Turkish philosopher Harun Yahya, "Atheism, which people have tried to for hundreds of years as 'the ways of reason and science,' is proving to be mere irrationality and ignorance."

 

They've removed it in later reprints; turns out Harun Yahya is something of a Muslim extremist.

(Ironically, that paragraph came after "moral high ground")

 

It also seems that this bunch of non-atheists talking about the "decline" in atheism are as divorced from reality as ever; opinion polls, where people went out and actually asked lots of people what they really believe show atheism increasing in the western world:

http://www.pitzer.edu/academics/faculty/zuckerman/atheism.html

 

By the way, what does this have to do with Boy Scouts, Rooster7?

[johndaigler 10]

Thanks, Rooster, ... very interesting!

 

Merlyn's seemingly knee-jerk challenge aside ... I also find it interesting that you posted this article. Something about it caught your eye, and I believe more than the obvious opportunity to get Merlyn and Ed to write mean things at teach other.

 

This article clearly points to a rise in Neo-Paganism. A thought that, I would have thought, doesn't sit well with you. Do you think Scouts is going to need to make more room at the table for Pagans and their Religious Awards? With the exception of this "Rule of 25" that has recently been discussed around our campfire, Neo-Pagans fit all our other criteria for fully embraced memebership in BSA.

 

I'm assuming your post isn't signalling you're rolling out the WELCOME mat. SO, what is it you're thinking?

 

jd

[Trevorum 24]

jd,

let's be clear here - pagans (neo-pagans, etc.)currently ARE very welcome in BSA. There are thousands of pagan scouts across the country. As you point out, pagans fit the religious criteria for membership in BSA, believing in a god(s) and/or goddess(es) and acknowledging their duty to be Reverent.

 

The so-called "Rule of 25" refers only to BSA's internal administration of religious emblem programs. Small faith groups (with fewer than 25 chartering organizations nationwide) are not eligible at this time for a separate religious emblem to be recognized by BSA.

[Merlyn_LeRoy 72]

And that rule of 25 was created out of whole cloth solely to prevent pagans from creating a recognized religious award. I wouldn't describe pagans as "very welcome" in the BSA when special rules are created to keep them from being treated equally.

[Rooster7 11]

Merlyn_LeRoy,

 

So, rooster7, do you think the Rev. Sun Myung Moon is the new messiah?

 

I dont think about Rev. Sun Myung at all. I just thought the article was interesting...and true.

 

By the way, what does this have to do with Boy Scouts, Rooster7?

 

I find it rather ironic that you of all people would criticize me for starting a thread that deals with atheism.

 

Johndaigler,

 

I'm assuming your post isn't signaling you're rolling out the WELCOME mat. SO, what is it you're thinking?

 

Im thinking sadly, the sentiments expressed in the article strike me as being very true.

 

I believe people want to control their future even beyond this life. They dont want to fear the unknown. So, they pursue a spirituality that enables them to remain unchanged and/or to believe in an afterlife that will satisfy all of their perceived needs. They embrace or create a faith that provides them comfort and security - as they stand today, unchanged. For some folks that means worshiping trees. For others it means worshiping Satan. And for some, that means atheism.

 

[Merlyn_LeRoy 72]

Rooster7 writes:

I dont think about Rev. Sun Myung at all. I just thought the article was interesting...and true.

 

Why do you think the article was true? It presented NO data to show that atheism is declining, and there have been a number of recent polls that say the opposite. You seem to just believe what you WANT to be true, instead of what's actually true.

 

And it's hardly "ironic" that I would question why you would post an article that has nothing to do with Scouting in a Scouting forum.

 

I believe people want to control their future even beyond this life. They dont want to fear the unknown. So, they pursue a spirituality that enables them to remain unchanged and/or to believe in an afterlife that will satisfy all of their perceived needs.

 

Now THAT'S ironic. You cling to your unsubstantiated belief in an afterlife as much as anyone I've seen.

[Rooster7 11]

Now THAT'S ironic. You cling to your unsubstantiated belief in an afterlife as much as anyone I've seen.

 

Cling to it? Interesting choice of wordsGod does offer something that we should all want to cling to salvation, love, peace, and joy. But as much as I want these things, I dont cling to Christianity as if its a buoy in an unforgiving sea. The fact is prior to knowing the truths of the Bible; I never realized that I needed a savior. Furthermore, it would have been much more palatable for me - to reject the ideas of sin, evil, and Hell. But the reality of this world, and Gods spirit testifies otherwise. It would have been easier for me to burry my head and dismiss sin, evil, and Hell as the products of superstitious fools. That would have enabled me to live my life as I pleased. Who needs guilt? Who wants to answer for their behavior, much less for their thoughts? I could have slept easier at night, knowing that my family was not going to judged or subjected to eternal damnation. God didnt allow me to embrace beliefs merely because they made me feel safe or comfortable. He made me examine His Words. His truth is undeniable. Those who refuse to yield to it; will answer to God. Those who surrender to it; will find a loving and holy God.

 

[Prairie_Scouter 10]

I don't think the issue with Boy Scouts has to with how many atheists there might be, or whether they are growing or shrinking in number. The question for Boy Scouts, I guess, is whether they can substantiate their claim that atheists cannot make good Scout leaders because of their beliefs, or lack thereof. As far as I can tell, their main argument in favor of their policy is "because we said so".

 

Regards the comments made about finding a loving God, there are those who believe exactly that, and there are those who believe that your "loving God" is the same God who brought us the Crusades, the Inquisition, the Salem Witch Trials, the Holocaust, and all manners of other things that are anything but "loving". I have known people who, while not exactly atheists, expressed a doubt in the belief of a God because if there was one, he/she would never have let those kinds of things happen.

[johndaigler 10]

My apologies for muddying the waters. Of course, you're right, Trevorum. I was speaking to the lack of a Pagan Religious Emblem and wan't clear enough. The "Rule of 25" is odd enough to create confusion and angst, I'd rather not feed that particular fire.

 

Merlyn, you seem to be writing with the authority of knowledge. . . . "And that rule of 25 was created out of whole cloth solely to prevent pagans from creating a recognized religious award." . . . I'm not sure how you would have such knowledge. Without it, you're putting yourself at risk of being called a liar. Perhaps, you could clarify.

 

jd(This message has been edited by johndaigler)(This message has been edited by johndaigler)

[BadenP 93]

I would agree that there is a certain faith based mentality that is growing in our society, especially with the result of our last election,but why is that occuring is the question. No one can deny that we live in a fear based society, fear of terrorism, government interfering in our rights to privacy, the war that may never end. You can blame science all you want for its errors over time, but without that science we would still be living in caves, being erradicated by plagues and disease. I think many people use their newly found faith as a platform to justify their own prejudices and claims of cultural superiority. This has resulted in the world disorder we have today, economically and socially. While I believe in a supreme creator and a grand design, I do think Meryln has made a very valid point, the article quoted has virtually no facts to support its claims. From what I know of the editors of this paper this is a common practice for many of its stories.

 

To my friend Rooster as JD stated you sure do not seem to be welcoming but rather promoting your own personal crusade. Again you state believe as I do or risk an eternity in Hell,again using scripture out of context, not the way to win people over to your side. You should try to the methodology Jesus used, love not threats.

[Merlyn_LeRoy 72]

Of course the BSA isn't going to tell people about their religious discrimination, you have to ask the pagans that tried for years to get their religious award accepted:

 

http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.scouting/msg/06066293cfcfbd4a

 

The award is here, but of course the BSA won't recognize it:

http://www.cog.org/projects/hartcres.html

 

If you like, you can see if the BSA will yet allow any Wiccan religious group to charter a unit. Wiccans say the BSA won't issue any charters to them, so of course they can never get 25 chartered units and can never have their award recognized.

 

Pagans are only welcome in the same sense that blacks are welcome to sit in the back of the bus in Alabama in the 1950s.

[Rooster7 11]

BP, I didn't threaten anyone. And you'll have to tell me what scriptures you were referring to...

 

[packsaddle 753]

My wife, gotta love her, is fond of suggesting that if persons who reject science in favor of faith were honest enough also to reject all medical advances derived from scientific research...things would take care of themselves. Lately, I think about her suggestion often.

As far as the so-called afterlife goes, people often advise me to go to you-know-where...in between offering to allow me to kiss their 'butts'. Given my mutual admiration for them, perhaps I should cultivate a liking for warm climates?

[NJCubScouter 1389]

Apologies in advance for the following, but this fragment of dialogue from "The Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy" somehow suggested itself as being appropriate at this point. I tried to include enough so that the "punchline" might make some sense to those unfamiliar with the book, but not enough to get "NJCubScouter" sued by the Estate of Douglas Adams for copyright infringement.

 

"So here we are," said Zaphod hesitantly, "lying dead ..."

 

"Standing," Trillian corrected him.

 

"Er, standing dead," continued Zaphod, "in this desolate ..."

 

"Restaurant," said Arthur Dent who had got to his feet and could now, much to his surprise, see clearly. That is to say, the thing that surprised him was not that he could see, but what he could see.

 

"Here we are," continued Zaphod doggedly, "standing dead in this desolate ..."

 

"Five star ..." said Trillian.

 

"Restaurant," concluded Zaphod.

 

"Odd isn't it?" said Ford.

 

"Er, yeah."

 

"Nice chandeliers though," said Trillian.

 

They looked about themselves in bemusement.

 

"It's not so much an afterlife," said Arthur, "more a sort of apres vie."