Scouts' $1/year Balboa Park lease ruled unconstitutional

[Merlyn_LeRoy 72]

 

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/metro/20030731-1429-aclu_scouts.html

 

The Boy Scouts' lease of public land in San Diego's Balboa Park is unconstitutional, a federal judge decided in a ruling released Thursday.

 

District Judge Napoleon Jones Jr. said the Scouts' lease of the 18-acre Camp Balboa in Balboa Park violates provisions in the U.S. and state constitutions governing the separation of church and state.

 

Jones said the Boy Scouts are a religious organization because the Scouts require members to profess a belief in God.

...

 

[acco40 95]

I don't quite understand this ruling. I can see why some may not like it, but why can't a city government (San Diego) lease its land to a private organization?

 

The amount should not be the issue (it is not just $1/year). If Mr. Budd (ACLU lawyer) or anyone else felt that, "We believe it is long past time for the City Council to end its affiliation with this discriminatory organization and to keep open this public parkland for the use of all citizens of San Diego on a fair and equal basis and not just those citizens preferred by the Boy Scouts" why don't they work within the political arena (change the City Council) to get the policy changed. I don't see why it is considered unconstitutional.

 

 

[dsteele 20]

Before anyone gets riled up, I think we should allow Merlyn his glee.

 

If I were on that city council I would push the council to sell the land outright to the Boy Scouts of America for $50.00 and a signed agreement from the council that the city (and the taxpayers) no longer owed the BSA the $7,000,000 for the dining hall, ranger, etc. that the council has spent to improve the land.

 

There's more than one way to skin a . . .

 

DS(This message has been edited by dsteele)

[eisely 13]

I don't know who litigated against the scouts on this. I suspect it was the ACLU. I cut them off years ago.

[Merlyn_LeRoy 72]

The opinion doesn't seem to be posted yet, but

leasing land (or selling it, for that matter)

for less than market rates is tantamount to a

subsidy, and the city can't subsidize the Boy

Scouts because of their discrimination.

[OldGreyEagle 5]

Well, if the subsidy thing wont work, I guess a bill for the amount Dsteele suggested is fair, with interest of course to be added.

[Twocubdad 665]

Unless the lease and/or California law states otherwise, it is standard that any real improvements made to a piece of property by a leasee become the property of the leasor when the lease expires without compensation.

[dsteele 20]

Twocubdad is probably correct. So much for wishful thinking on my part. However, I don't think this battle is over yet. I mean the grand atheist/homosexual argument as well as the Balboa park argument. Neither is apt to go away anytime soon. Let there be no doubt that I side with the BSA and for more than my personal paycheck. If I didn't believe in the BSA I certainly wouldn't work for it.

 

But I also like the line from the movie 4th of July. I believe the fictional president said it. "We will not go quietly into the night . . ."

 

And the BSA won't either. My point in the previous post is that the BSA as a movement has a habit of winning. Whether winning means standing by, standing firm, or simmply stating our postion and letting the world do what it will, we're in the habit of winning.

 

Merlyn, I'm tired of your vapors. We're not going anywhere, and it seems you're not either. Why you're not more bothered by fencing around Indpendance Hall (the cradle of the freedom you use to try to end government support of the BSA) and seem to be centered on ending any kind of taxpayer support of helping instill values in America's youth, I don't understand. Don't you have better places to spend your engery?

 

What about all those children who pledge allegiance to the United States Under God in elementary schools all over the country? You seem to want to pick on a few million BSA members instead.

 

To quote Shakespeare . . . " . . . is but a walking shadow. A poor actor strutting and fretting his way across the stage . . . full of sound and fury . . . signifying ... nothing."

 

DS

 

OK. So that's the Captain Kirk version. I played MacBeth once, but can't do the full quote from memory anymore.

 

DS

[dsteele 20]

I just remembered that Merlyn is a theater guy. So I thought a little harder about the quote I was attemtping.

 

Please allow me to try it again from memory. I'm sure I will miss a word or two. In my college days I could ad-lib in iambic pentameter, but that was a long time ago.

 

"Life is but a walking shadow. A poor player who strutts and fretts his hour upon the stage. It is a tale told by an idiot. Full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.

 

Just found the actual: "Life's but a walking shadow; a poor player That struts and frets his hour upon the stage and then is heard no more: it is a tale Told by an idiot, full of sound an fury, Signifying nothing."

 

Just a bit of symbolic ranting on a topic.

 

DS

[Merlyn_LeRoy 72]

dsteele writes:

Merlyn, I'm tired of your vapors. We're not going anywhere, and it seems you're not either. Why you're not more bothered by fencing around Indpendance Hall (the cradle of the freedom you use to try to end government support of the BSA) and seem to be centered on ending any kind of taxpayer support of helping instill values in America's youth, I don't understand.

 

Part of the "values" you're instilling includes denegration of atheists, and you're using MY tax money and MY government to further this, and you still don't understand? The judge in the lease case was quoted as saying "[The BSA's] protected, private viewpoints include an anti-homosexual, anti-agnostic and anti-atheist stance".

 

You expect atheists to take this quietly?

 

Don't you have better places to spend your engery?

 

What about all those children who pledge allegiance to the United States Under God in elementary schools all over the country? You seem to want to pick on a few million BSA members instead.

 

I can do both; I've signed up to help Dr. Newdow with his pledge case, too, at http://www.restorethepledge.com

[scoutldr 732]

"Do not go gently into that good night. Rage, Rage against the dying of the light." - Dylan Thomas

 

I've been to the San Diego Desert Pacific Council scout "complex" at Balboa Park. (Whenever I travel and have free time, I make it a point to find and visit the local scout shop...OK, so I need to get a life!). It consists of a camp, the scout shop, a meeting hall, and other buildings. It's a jewel worth saving. It's also the site of the San Diego Zoo, museums and the Naval Hospital. So, let the City raise the rent to a fair amount and let's get on with our lives. Where do I send my check?

[OldGreyEagle 5]

Hey scoutldr, I do the same thing. I always buy the council strip as well. I know I can buy different strips in many scout stores, but I can say I was there when I show my collection. My favorite has to be the Arbuckle Council in southern Oklahoma, as you may expect it has Jon, Odie and Garfield on it, I love it.

 

Been to Balboa park as well, The scout store backs up against the zoo as you mentioned and right next door is the Girl Scout office, what do they pay? Anybody know?(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

[Advisor FB 10]

Merlyn,

 

You have every right to complain about what your tax dollars are spent on, but that does not mean that we how feel otherwise should be silenced or restricted from stating how we feel. Personally, I find it outrageous that my tax dollars help pay for the killing of unborn children. I also find it outrageous that my tax dollars are paying to enforce atheistic views in school like the theory of evolution while not discussing other theories. Just because I stand up for my beliefs, does not make me discriminatory. But attacking me for my beliefs is discrimination. Those that are screaming the most against discrimination are the ones that "discriminate" the most. The so-called "tolerance" that the homosexuals and atheists call for only works if you tolerate their views. For them to tolerate other viewpoints seems impossible. They no longer debate the issues but cry discrimination when someone opposes their views. Anytime anyone stands up to speak out against their views, they get out to protest and keep others from hearing different viewpoints.

Perhaps the old saying in legal circles has come true. "The worse your case the louder you plead"

 

 

[mk9750 11]

Advisor FB,

 

Thanks for saving me the typing!

 

"DITTO THAT!"

 

Mark

[Fat Old Guy 11]

I used to belong to an organization that had leased country property for 50 years for $1 year. The county decided to raiser our rent to $100 a month. Then they decided that they wanted the property for themselves because of the improvements that we had made so they wouldn't renew the lease.

 

Being spiteful, we dismantled everything that we had installed at our expense. Club house, fence, sprinkler system, lighting. All gone. Boy was the county pissed. The county stomped it's legal feet. We stomped ours. They left us alone and have an empty lot.